Alternatives to CIO

[lilabet]

Hi all.

I have been reading these forums for years, and I have posted on occasion. However, one thing has always struck me, and it is a huge difference between the way things are done and talked about in the UK, and in the US. It is CIO vs nursgin to sleep (over and over and over and over again during the night.) I don't understand why CIO is often mooted as the only alternative to multiple night wakings from babies who need to then be nursed back to sleep?

There are many many gentle alternatives out there, but I see hardly any mentioned here - why is that?

• Pat SHHH method
• Pick up Put down
• Pacifiers
• End of finger to suck
• Shhh no boobie (for those babies old enough to understand)
• Stroking hair / face / back
• Baby Massage

Plus probably loads more. I just don't get it....It is just not seen here as cosleep and nurse all night vs CIO, I don't know anyone really who uses CIO but I know loads and loads of people that use all the above methods, and more, to encourage baby to sleep.

Any thoughts?

[Louisep]

I think those threads you see on here written by desperately tired mamas questioning whether they should CIO is because they're tried EVERYTHING - all those things on your list and more - to get their babies to sleep and all that works is nursing and co-sleeping. And even then, that works only half the time. Then those mamas who nurse and co-sleep because it was the only way (or their preferred way) to get their babies to sleep find themselves needing/wanting to night wean and struggling to get their LOs to sleep any other way. That's been my take on this forum so far, from a British gal living in the U.S. with a poor sleeper.

It reminds me of when I asked me pedi about my baby's poor sleep and she responded "keep things quiet and dark". Uh, yeah, tried that and that and that and that and that....ad nauseum!!!! So now we cosleep and nurse all night long because that's what works - half the time. When it doesn't work the CIO devil whispers in my ear because it's the only thing I have never tried. My mother who lives in the UK constantly raises the subject of "controlled crying" as it's called over there, and when I ask her why I should she says it's what all her friends' daughters did...

I wish my babe would respond to those things you list. I'll keep persevering though and maybe one day.

[lilabet]

Have they tried everything? Really? I just see it as two extremes, so much, I never see any mention of anything else...

[Jayray]

Yeah, the only thing that works for our DS is nursing or bouncing/rocking. All that shushing, patting, singing, etc. does nothing for our child. Although, I've never tried it for more than a couple minutes. I just don't have the patience and DS is usually getting ramped up by then. I have heard of people doing it for like 20 minutes and it working. That is way too long for me.

[ssh]

Nursing to sleep while co-sleeping is the easiest way for everyone to get the most sleep. A nursing mother can learn to go back to sleep while nursing. All the things you suggested involve being awake while doing them. Also this is a natural parenting site and co-sleeping is what most humans worldwide do now and what humans have done most of our existence. Also it's what all mammals do.

[lilabet]

A couple of minutes? Really? Anything gentle takes my son about ten minutes to fall asleep, whether that is on his own (never crying) or with my hand on his chest, or being patted, or whatever... I think that might be part of the problem then, if it is just a couple of minutes effort or nursing, or CIO, a the only possible options. It just seems insane to me.

I could never ever sleep while nursing I think that is really dangerous. (I was always nursing sitting up and I would not wnat my son to fall out my grasp while I slept.)

It's not cosleeping in question here either, it's the endless nursing I see as the only option. I mean, it's just not right that children are having such disturbed sleep, surely?! Like, every hour? They don't get the right sleep cycles do they? Babies are learning creatures, they can so so easily learn good soothing methods that don't involve disturbance on the scale I see (the threads where mamas are at breaking point.)

[mamazee]

Babies don't really wake up when they need to nurse. They just latch on and snooze and nurse at the same time.

[ssh]

The article "Why babies should never sleep alone" on this site http://www.naturalchild.org/articles/sleeping.html (it's near the bottom of the list) addresses the benefits of night nursing and co-sleeping from a biological and anthropological point of view. Page I38 specifically discusses the biology of it.

Most mammals nurse lying down. I got the hang of nursing lying down fairly easy. And as for being safe, I don't move while asleep when co-sleeping with an infant. I read a lot of mothers don't. I have to be awake to move, and if my DD moved as an infant or made a noise or her temperature changed (got a fever) I woke up. From what I've read this kind of responsiveness is normal in nursing co-sleeping moms. Also, like mamazee, my DD never really woke just to nurse, she just wiggled enough to latch on.

[Louisep]

I only speak for myself - I have tried all the conventional and unconventional ways to get my baby to sleep for 9 months. I have persevered with other techniques until he cries from exhaustion. Then I stop and go back to what works.

The breaking point mamas thread is not calling into question cosleeping and night nursing - okay, I think I might be able to speak for many of us on that thread when I say we cosleep and night nurse as the only way for baby and mother to get any decent sleep.

My baby does not wake up to nurse every 1-2 hours. My baby wakes up period and one of the only ways to get him back to sleep (so that he gets enough sleep etc etc) is to nurse him. I assure you, no amount of shushing or patting will do. On the worst nights he requires an hour of bouncing in the ergo - in the middle of the night. So believe me, I'd rather shush and pat any day of the week!! Sounds like heaven...

Nursing in bed is not dangerous if you are not under the influence of alcohol or drugs and follow safe cosleeping practices. A mother is finely attuned to her baby and vice versa so she wakes if anything were amiss. It's quite fascinating really.

[Jayray]

I guess a couple minutes doesn't seem like a lot, but in the middle of the night when I start patting DS' belly and it just makes him cry, it seems like a lot. Or when trying to put him to bed and he's just looking at me smiling and not seeming to get sleepy at all while I'm patting and singing and shushing(and I'm thinking, the longer he's awake, the harder it will be to put him down). It's easier to do the easy thing.

Although I agree with you that there are other gentle "methods" and perhaps I haven't given them a good enough try. I also have a 4 mo, so that might have something to do with it!

[mama2mygirl]

Originally Posted by lilabet

Have they tried everything? Really? I just see it as two extremes, so much, I never see any mention of anything else...

I HAVEN'T tried everything. I'm just so tired--I'd love any ideas.
I would loooovvveee to get some sleep. The most I'm getting is two hours at a time and it's really killing me. (I homeschool my 1st grader as well so I can't sleep during the day.)

[LadyCatherine185]

I think for most people nursing is the easiest and most natural thing to do in the middle of the night to get the maximum amount of sleep.

I have also tried every other way of getting DS to sleep in the night, all of them keep him crying and don't put him back to sleep. It is so much easier to roll over and insert the boob and go back to sleep. If I had to physically get up out of bed and rock him, or shusssh and pat him while he screamed, that would be much more disruptive to my sleep, as well as DH's who has to be at work in the morning, than just nursing him back to sleep quickly (takes less than a minute most times) albeit 5-10 times a night.

That is why no one suggests "why don't you just do xyz instead of nursing your LO back to sleep.." unless they are wanting to nightwean. Also, a lot of babies still need the nutrition that they get during night nursing sessions.

If people are coming on here to learn how to get MORE sleep, telling them to fully awake, and get out of bed or whatever is NOT going to make them want to stop nursing at night.

What we want is our babies to sleep.. and since we can't MAKE THEM sleep better, we have to find ways to help US sleep better when we can (which for most is cosleeping and nursing laying down at night).

[babybirkel]

maybe I'm just lazy.

but i have to say that for us, nursing all night and co-sleeping is the only thing that works for us. i never said it works well, or that's it is an ideal situation ("ideal" being "a kid who is easy to put to sleep, as opposed to my kid, who, well, isn't") but believe me, we have tried everything else. it gets a little bit frustrating (and sometimes insulting, although i'm sure that's not your intention) when people who do not know my child or his personality say somewhat flippantly "try swaddling" or "trying patting his back until he falls back asleep." boy i wish it were that simple.

there are other gentle methods to get a baby to sleep. however, none of them work for my kid. okay, i take that back. for a very long while only nursing to sleep worked. at around 6 months he started to be okay with being rocked to sleep by daddy. he still has to be touching one of us for most of the night, but now he will accept snuggling with my arm as opposed to having a boob in his mouth all night. we can only take things one day at a time, you know? maybe someday he'll be okay with lying down and having his back rubbed until he falls asleep, or whatever. he's just not there yet. so we co-sleep, and we nurse a great deal in the night, and it's sometimes very, very tiring to mamas. but one day, maybe those things will change. it's not that we haven't tried other things. we have. they just don't work (yet).

[Nillarilla]

Different babes have different sleep needs and some need more help.
My son responded well to shhhh and pat and pick up put down and the pacifier. My daughter screams and fights the whole time and can take up to an hour to put down without nursing. I persist because I know when I go back to work I don't want to be trying to change her sleep habits at that point. So I'm doing it now. That doesn't make it easy and it doesn't feel gentle when she's thrashing and screaming. Nursing would be easier and more gentle and these other methods are still not allowing me any more sleep than when I was nursing all night long. I still nurse when I go to bed and in the early am but not at every waking. I don't think it's an either/or thing. I think that anything in between requires a lot of energy and patience which most of us sleep deprived mama's don't have a lot of right now.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by lilabet

It's not cosleeping in question here either, it's the endless nursing I see as the only option. I mean, it's just not right that children are having such disturbed sleep, surely?! Like, every hour? They don't get the right sleep cycles do they? Babies are learning creatures, they can so so easily learn good soothing methods that don't involve disturbance on the scale I see (the threads where mamas are at breaking point.)

To me, if that is what the baby is NATURALLY doing, how could it be "not right"?????

And obviously they can't learn "good soothing methods so so easily" on their own (unless their personality type is that that does not need a lot of help self-soothing and they sleep well on their own) or else people wouldn't be resorting to CIO or seeking advice from other mamas on parenting boards.

Sure, my DS sleeps like crap some nights and there is a lot of disturbance. But those are nights when he is sick, getting molars, etc. A "normal" night, he wakes frequently but there is little disturbance, he rolls over, latches on, and goes back to sleep within a minute or less.

And maybe if I pat/shusshed DS to sleep from an earlier age and let him scream for hours while I tried this he'd 'get the hint' or 'learn self-soothing skills' and would sleep better... but at what cost? I am not comfortable with letting him cry like that.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by lilabet

Hi all.


There are many many gentle alternatives out there, but I see hardly any mentioned here - why is that?

• Pat SHHH method
• Pick up Put down
• Pacifiers
• End of finger to suck
• Shhh no boobie (for those babies old enough to understand)
• Stroking hair / face / back
• Baby Massage

Any thoughts?

to answer this question--- if you are doing these when what your baby wants is to nurse, and your baby is screaming, it is not gentle. Yes, sometimes you are at a breaking point and you HAVE to nightwean, etc and doing these are more gentle than CIO.. Every situation is also different, and sometimes it is necessary to try other methods for Mama's sanity if she cannot nurse.

Want to clarify I am not speaking of those babies who will cry no matter what, but as long as they are crying in your arms and there isn't anything else you can do, you are doing the most gentle thing you can. I am talking about purposely witholding nursing from your baby while they scream in order to teach them other self-soothing methods.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by lilabet

Have they tried everything? Really? I just see it as two extremes, so much, I never see any mention of anything else...

I've tried all that and more.

She cries in my bed, in my arms, on my boob, so you can't blame us for thinking, would it really be SO bad for her to cry in a cradle? Really?

Luckily we get sleep reprieves every so often... but yes, we tried all that. Rocking. Swaddling. Tummy sleeping. White noise. Absolute silence. Darkness. Semi-darkness. Cradle. Different-room sleeping with a monitor. Warmer clothes. Cooler clothes. More day nursing. Shushing. Swaying. Bouncing. Vibrating chair. Carseat. Co-sleeping. Sleeping on me while I walk around for hours. Finger. Binky (she takes one but pulls it out when sleeping). Other binky. Sleeping on breast. Nope, none of them work for us for more than 30 minutes.

My child doesn't nurse to sleep. She nurses herself awake. If I could nurse her to sleep, I would. To me, that seems obvious. She just doesn't sleep, and if I over-nurse her (to get her to nurse when not hungry is a horrible struggle) she then vomits all over.

The only thing that even moderately works is rocking to sleep, laying down on tummy or on side, and sleeping in a different room, with me getting up to comfort her every two hours (she doesn't nurse). And that's what we do, and we change methods every night because nothing works twice in a row.

if you are doing these and your baby is screaming, it is not gentle

Sooooo.... what would be, then? Giving the baby drugs to stop it screaming / crying / whining? Because when your goal is "get baby to stop screaming/crying/whining", I think you and baby are pretty much on the same page. The problem is, neither of you know what baby wants.

It is possible for a child to cry in the arms of a loving, gentle caregiver.

[isabchi]

Originally Posted by ssh

Nursing to sleep while co-sleeping is the easiest way for everyone to get the most sleep. A nursing mother can learn to go back to sleep while nursing. All the things you suggested involve being awake while doing them. Also this is a natural parenting site and co-sleeping is what most humans worldwide do now and what humans have done most of our existence. Also it's what all mammals do.

[teachma]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

It is possible for a child to cry in the arms of a loving, gentle caregiver.

Yes, it is...and we have moved on to allowing our six-month old to do this for part of the night. Having tried all the gentle methods suggested by the OP, I still have a baby who wakes up every hour (on a good night) or every 45 minutes (on a less-good night) all night long. Desperate for some sleep by the time he hit 5.5 months of age, I started passing him off to dh when I wanted to get to bed. It is usually at around 11 pm. Dh then co-sleeps with him, and keeps him for as many hours that ds can tolerate. (The most has been 4 hours; usually it is 2.5 or three.) Yes, sometimes he wakes up every 45 minutes, cries, and needs to be comforted back to sleep by his dad. But the crying is in the arms of his loving parent, and he usually stops within three minutes. Sure, if I nursed him, he'd never cry at all. But I'd never sleep at all. I agree that crying for a few minutes while being comforted in the arms of a parent is completely different from CIO alone in a crib.

[EdnaMarie]

If baby nurses to sleep. If baby stays awake while nursing. If you do not have a toddler that enters the bed and attacks the baby (in her sleep) while you are doing so. THEN nursing to sleep is the easiest thing.

I did it with my first. With my second, it's not working. Wouldn't I loooooove to stay asleep in bed all night!?!

I also wanted to clarify my answer to the OP- the reason people don't mention them is that they usually don't want to imply to a frustrated mom that she hasn't tried the obvious. It can be upsetting to ask for help and having people give you advice that you could have thought of yourself. So I think people tend to give sympathy rather than concrete advice. You will find the methods you suggest more buried in people's answers.

I do resent the implication that those of us looking for alternative sleep solutions are doing so because we don't want to co-sleep just because. We are sleep-deprived, miserable, and getting physically sick, or our child is not able to safely co-sleep, or whatever, you know?

I spent last night up and down caring for two kids. If there were any way I could sleep, co-sleeping and tandem nursing included, I would do it. But that doesn't work for us.