vent at 2am

[Karamom]

Why oh why? Another night of both dc still awake at 2am. They have not been asleep yet and I'm so #$$%#%^%^% tired!!!

Everyone else I know dc goes to bed at 8 and they have free time then they can go to sleep and here I am still awake at 2am I must be doing something wrong.
OK vent over

[Wild Lupine]

Oh, I am so sorry! Big hugs!

Can you tell us a little more? Their ages and routine? Maybe someone here whose been there can help out.

[Karamom]

Thanks for the reply. That was just my tired half asleep ramblings. I don't know if anyone can help me, I think I'm beyond help. Every time I ask for advice online or irl no one seems to be able to help me, but I'll explain maybe I'm wrong and maybe someone will help *please.*

DS will be three in a couple of weeks. He has never been a very good sleeper. Most of his life he has been a sleep fighter. I used to spend every night in a battle with him to go to sleep for hours. The last 3-4 months we have been moving toward a radical unschooling lifestyle which basically says to let your child set their own bedtime. You cannot force an unsleepy child to sleep. It has really helped us because he no longer fights sleep when he is truly tired, the problem is he does not get tired until very late. Always after midnight. Usually 1-2am. He does sleep late to make up for it. He likes to sleep until noon or 1pm! Then we always miss any activities planned because everything for preschoolers is scheduled in the morning, we miss a lot of daylight hours for outside play and I feel like a slump for sleeping half the day.

I try to get him up at 8am (which involves me dragging him out of bed) then try for a 1pm nap then bedtime at 10pm. He usually won't sleep at nap time and then crashes on the couch at about 6pm sleeps till 9pm then up half the night and we are back where we started. If I try to keep him up at 6 so he will hopefully go to bed at 8-9pm he becomes a horrible grouch and then at bedtime becomes a wild crazy monster running around the house all night and still doesn't sleep until 1am.

When he sleeps until 1pm in the "mornings" he does not take a nap just up until 1am. It seems no matter what I do his body is telling him to sleep from 1am to 1pm generally. This is just not ok with me. I need to go to morning activities and see other moms. Also he is a very social kid and he is always upset to find out he slept threw seeing his friends. I feel like I need to go to sleep by midnight or I become very grumpy.

Now the baby- She is 7.5 months. I always do the bedtime routine and put her down about 9pm then a couple hours later she is up acting like "thanks for the nap mom" and then wide awake until about 3am. I try to get her to go back to sleep, the room is dark and quite and I lay with her and nurse but she just will not go back to sleep until a least 3am, it has been as late as 4am. It doesn't help that when she wakes up she hears her brother running around the house and when I try to lay with her he is calling me every 10 minutes. She will also sleep late in the morning.

My husband is not usually home during all of this. He works nights.

[Wild Lupine]

I'll try to write more tomorrow- on my way to bed now. But just a question, first. How committed are you to letting your son set his own bed time? Does it seem to be working? Is it something you are willing to let go of, at least for now?

[moonmom08]

I just had to chime in because I think I identify with your DS! My mom says I was always a night-owl. Drove her nuts. I remember laying in my bed awake for hours as child...finally sneaking flashlights, then when I was older, just staying up. 1 or 2 in the morning, and then sleeping late. Eventually I became a wildlife biologist and studied nocturnal animals :P! Even when I'm working on data/writing, I do my best work after about 10 p.m.

I'm really paying for it now with a LO that sleeps 7:30-6:30. I CAN NOT go to sleep before midnight and I try every night. It's like I come alive at 11 p.m. I feel like it's completely hardwired for me (which is probably NOT what you want to hear :P). That said, if you figure out something for your DS, let me know because maybe it will work for me too! :P

[Karamom]

OP here
I really like the idea of setting his own bedtime in theory but I'm afraid most who advocate this have older children who don't need constant supervision. I would be willing to let him do this if he went to sleep own his own sometime before midnight. I would also be willing to enforce a bedtime if it wasn't a monumental struggle with everyone crying and screaming which is what is usually turns out to be. When I discovered radical unschooling and consensual living I felt like I could breath a sigh of relief and just go with the flow and end the struggle. I still would like to do that but I really hate missing all our morning activities. I feel so isolated as it is I really need to get out and talk to other moms. I know he gets a lot out of these activities also.

I've tried to just have him stay up and watch a movie while I sleep with the baby but I can't sleep very well like this as I always have one ear open to what he is doing and he is always calling me and coming in the room to talk to me so it wakes the baby up.

[Karamom]

Tonight I loaded everyone in the car at 11:30 then took a drive. DS fell asleep right away so now I just have dd to deal with. Worked pretty good but I dont want to have to do this every night.

[MG01]

join us in the breaking point mamas thread and rant away there too

i am with ya, 2 am and he has been up and down for the past 6 hours, average of half an hour to forty minutes or so of sleep and then another wake/cry..

i am starting the book No Cry Sleep Solution and much of it makes a lot of sense- i.e.e sleep begets sleep, and babies who aren't getting the sleep they need won't sleep well even if they don't show the signs that we might typically assume are linked to "tiredness" in older kids/adults, they need their sleep too and it is a process to get back on the right track. teething, dev't milestones, etc. can all throw it off- but you have to teach them that during the brief awakenings that are part of their sleep cycle, they can fall back alseep (like we do as adults without remembering or even thinking about it) without needing to get up.. that said, if your babe is not even falling asleep just to wake up, but staying up that late-- are you drinking caffeine or anything that could stimulate? are you creating an environment/routine conducive to sleep i.e. warm bath, baby massage, lullabye, dim light or night light, etc. many babies apparently do well with this. i am in a sleep deprived fog just starting to studyup on this and try to implement some of it so i am not the expert here but wanted to offer some suggestions. also if you think it could be developmental/teething pain/etc. you can look into remedied (amber, homeopathy, gripe water for tummy troubles-- have you just introduced solids by any chance at age 6 mos?? that i have found to be a big culprit in my ds sleep issues and other issues too- rashes, yeast, tummy troubles, pain, EC backsliding, etc.) so another thing to factor in. i know, it is a guessing game and it is miserable.



keep us posted.

off to bed (i hope), kiddo is asleep in my arms, of course i may be right back but i have committed to at least try to transfer him so he doesnt think he always has to be or should be latched on/moving/in arms for every nap and at night, he has a definite clear association (and who wouldn't, yk?) i just have to find a balance that meets his needs and allows me enough sleep that i can feel like a human and not be anxious and depressed and have trouble in school and all. it's a battle, i know.

[MG01]

also- i am a single mom of one, but i can imagine that with two it is a lot harder to coordinate and meet everyone's needs- is it possible to trade off shifts with your DH or a friend or family member so that you can at least get the sleep you need?

Do your kids seem to show signs of being overtired, or do they get somewhere in the range of what they need as far as sleep length at their ages (of course it can vary, but NCSS says that it is typically pretty close in range for most kids, just one author's opinion though, and of course you can ask your ped/FP doc/whoever you trust on those things)

Kids can show over-tiredness by being clingy, fussy, easily frustrated, or really hyperactive or distractable. They don't necessarily display the signs that we associate w/ tiredness (although they can do that too!!)n Do they (either typical or atypical signs of tiredness?) Do you think the issue is that they are not getting enough sleep and are continuing a cycle of poor sleep, or that their sleep cycles are getting enough sleep but not allowing you to get the sleep you need and/or during the hours that you need to function optimally or at least at a basic level and be the parent you need to be during waking hours? There could be two different issues at play here, either or both, from what I am learning thus far.. but either or both will cause problems for sure.

off to try to get us to bed, wish us luck..

also maybe you said this already but do you co-sleep or what is the bed set-up/arrangement/room set-up for you and dh and the kids/ages? hopefully some mamas can help strategize, or if not just let you know that we are here to hear out those 2 am vents and we are there, or have been there, all the best, hope this post makes sense lol.

[Karamom]

ds frequently show signs of being over tired since his sleep schedule is all over the place. I've been trying to get him into a routine for years.

I think a lot of the problem is that ds can go to sleep on his own but still really prefers to have me there to help him. Before the baby I used to spend 1-2 hours every night laying in bed with him getting him to sleep. Now that the baby is here I just cannot do that and have been expecting him to go to sleep himself and he does sometimes. The baby doesn't sleep unless I'm right there next to her and I can't have ds in the same room unless he is already very tired or he just wakes her up. I feel bad that I can't give them both what they need. I wish dh was here to help at night.

ETA: Thanks for the help and I will check out the breaking point thread. Oh and I have the no-cry ss. It's a good book but haven't been able to make it work for me yet.

[MG01]

ahhh another Feb 09 babe, what is it with these babies lol. Sleep issues abound! I'm with ya. I also imagine that between your older ds getting used to a routine that involve 1-2 hours of you coaxing him to sleep, to all of a sudden not being able to have that anymore with a second child in the household, and you feeling spread thin between two needy young ones? (does your dh work nights too? sorry if you already said that) it can be tough.. it does sound like if he is overtired something's gotta give. i do think NCSS is more directed at a single child, although I haven't finished it, and I imagine they feed off each other's energies at night esp if you kwim.. and the log thing, i am trying really hard, but when you are so sleep deprived and something new is going on every ten minutes it seems so tedious to log it all.. but i am at least giving it a go, since right now it's just me and my little man.. i hope you find a solution, maybe sling the baby and do a bedtime routine with your older son, and then work on getting the littler one to bed with you? i know it doesn't leave much time for YOU in the evening but it seems from birth through 2-4 years it is hard to get that, esp as a single mama or one whose dh is away nights.. off for another shot at this going to bed thing *sigh* and yes come join us in the other thread for some moral support too..

[Wild Lupine]

I was going to suggest the car! At least as a temporary emergency measure. Get em to sleep, get you some sleep, however possible (within AP limits of course), until you are rested enough to take on a more permanent solution.

It sounds like DS may not be ready to set his own bed time. I don't know much about the theory, but maybe it would work for kids who can recognize their sleepy signals and allow themselves to drift peacefully into slumberland. But I think your son is collapsing with exhaustion at 1 AM, long after that peaceful sleepy time happened. My DD is about your son's age, and even though she's a good sleeper (now), she can't put herself to sleep. She sometimes asks to go to bed if she's tired (wow am I talking about MY DD here??? Believe me, it wasn't always like this), she still needs us to get her there.

Can you use the car for a few days or even weeks to get your son enough sleep so he is no longer chronically overtired? Then you can see what his natural rhythms are, when he tends to get sleepy, and set up a routine from there. Maybe you could play a certain CD in the car so that he associates it with sleep and use it as part of the routine later.

I'm not sure what you can do with DD When you are putting DS to sleep in the house except maybe put her to sleep earlier than DS? If that's possible and if she'll stay asleep. I have a really hard time putting both my children to sleep on my own, DS wakes every half hour for the first several hours after going to sleep, which isn't enough time to get DD to sleep. Maybe someone else has a solution for this.

Also, not sure how you feel about this, but when DD was hugely jet lagged (like 12 hours out of synch with me) we gave her some melatonin to help reset her clock. She was 2 1/2 at the time and only needed 1/2 tablet for about 3 nights for it to work. This might also work to help get your son through his over-tiredness, but again, not everyone feels comfortable with it and it is a personal choice.

[paulamc]

I just have one 12 month old babe so not a lot of experience to share (he falls asleep easily nursing, though he wakes every two hours or so through the night). I imagine you've already read it, but just in case you haven't, Sleepless in America gets consistently good reviews here at MDC. I have just begun reading it myself.

Good luck mama!

[Karamom]

Thanks for the replies.
I have read Sleepless in America. I thought it was a really good book but it ended up just making me feel like a bad mom because it really stresses sleeping at consistent times and how bad lack of sleep is for kids. I have tried tried tried to get ds to sleep at consistent times and so far have not seceded. I am currently trying again though.
I have decided my main problem is figuring out how to get 2 kids to sleep. If I had just one, either one, I think everything would be fine but with the two of them together I just can't do it.
Thanks again for all the suggestions.

[Smithie]

"When I discovered radical unschooling and consensual living I felt like I could breath a sigh of relief and just go with the flow and end the struggle."

OK, I am somebody who put her kids to bed at 8 p.m., but obviously you and I have different kids. If something about this method is speaking strongly to you, there may be a good reason for that.

One thing I have noticed in my years of having preschoolers is that Mom tends to place a HUGE focus on getting to the structured activities, when often the kids really could not give a hoot. But those activities are what keep Mom from being a shut-in!

Maybe you could find some stuff to do in the afternoons, and just say "farewell" to the toddler stuff? If you meet a friend at a park while your kids play, the kids are all set for socialization! And it's free! If you have $$ to spare, you could also sign your son up in an afternoon class at Little Gym, while you hang out in the observation area with the other moms. Last year, I signed my 4 y.o. up for the toddler class that ran at the same time as the "homeschool" class for older kids, and met some really cool moms up in the bleachers! There are definitely ways to meet people in the afternoon.

I would also suggest that until you get a workable routine going, you lie down whenever your son naps, if he does nap. Even if you can't sleep, even if the house is a mess, even if it means you eat cereal for dinner - those precious moments of being HORIZONTAL really do add up. And getting up a 8 a.m.? Forget it! Get up when he gets up! Are you a radical or not?