Please critique our handling of meltdown.

[VisionaryMom]

We had this episode today, and I'm wondering what we should've done. These types of episodes aren't uncommon, but the details of this one are fresh.

We go to a very small UU church that's generally child-friendly. We have snacks after service. DH and I were helping put things away from the service, and the kids (not just ours) went over to the refreshment table. All of a sudden, I hear DS crying. I go over, and he said he didn't want his cake broken. So I said I'd eat his piece and get him another one. He just started screaming no.

I took him out into the hallway to talk to him. Basically one of the women at church asked if he wanted his slice of cake (it was one of those narrow pound cakes) broken in half. He said no, but she broke it. (I don't know if she didn't hear/understand him, or it was really not a question meant to be answered - asking as she did it). He will not eat food broken in half. He's refused meals before because of these kinds of issues, which is why I initally offered to eat it. (I assumed he'd accidentally broken it.)

So, I think he's calmed down, but we go back in. He sees the pound cake and freaks out. DH and I take him aside 3 more times, but he cannot get over it. So, we leave. About halfways down the stairs, he sits and refuses to move. DH picked him up and said that we can't stop on the stairs. Plus, DS is screaming at the top of his lungs. So, as we walk out, DS tries to get lose and is just kicking and hitting DH and saying how we always do this to him, we're mean, and on and on.

DH stops and kneels down. He asks DS if he wants to walk to the car (about a block). DS says yes. We walk about 10 steps, and he literally lies out flat on the sidewalk and starts crying about his cake and the fact that I didn't get his drink before we left. I have my hands full, so I wait while DH gets DD in the car. He comes back and gets DS and puts him in the car. We drive home with DS screaming the entire way.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I don't see how you could have done anything differently. He wasn't in a place where he could reason with you, or figure out a better solution.

It might be helpful to look at antecedents, though, and see if you can find a pattern. You mentioned that he didn't like foods "broken" and it also sounds like it doesn't work to then offer a non-broken piece of the same thing.

It could be that he has sensory issues going on, that the church service was overstimulating and he melted down over something insignificant because he was at his limit. Maybe he is unable to do large groups yet.

It could also, or otherwise, be that the environment had little to do with it, and he has issues with rigid thinking and inflexibility. The Explosure Child (a book) might be worth a read.

[OGirlieMama]

Yep, sounds like what I would have done. I can totally see one of my girls having this exact same freakout. Actually, she has, but not in public (just luck at not having the situation come up). Other than letting him freak out on the floor until he was totally done with the tantrum (which I know could take a loooong time and is not practical when you have another child with you, people are there, etc.) I can't imagine what you could have done differerently.

Oh wait! You could have waved your magic tantrum-stopper wand! You did get yours, didn't you?

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

It might be helpful to look at antecedents, though, and see if you can find a pattern.

He feels wronged.

That's not always it, but it was today. It is the source of many, many tantrums. And the truth is that I agree with him. I have a very rigid sense of right and wrong and always have. I've lost friends because of it. My parents cut me off financially because of it (because I was in an interracial relationship and wouldn't bail to keep them from embarassment). So, I do know where he's coming from, but I also know that I internalize my anger more. As I've gotten older, I've learned to channel big anger (over social injustices) into an activist life. I just don't know how to transfer those lessons to DS.

In his mind, today, she asked if he wanted his cake broken. He said no. She broke it. That shouldn't have happened. And, he is right, but what's done is done. If he'd broken the cake accidentally, he would've been fine with me eating his piece and letting him get a new one. It was just that he kept yelling, "but she didn't listen to me! She broke my cake!" He did this once because he asked DH to cut his pancakes. DH said okay, just a second. He was taking his insulin at the time. MIL reached over and cut DS' pancakes. He told her no, he wanted Dad to but she didn't listen. He wouldn't eat because he asked his dad. His dad said yes. He told MIL not to cut them. To him there is no wavering from his position.

I don't know how to explain that sometimes your position is right but the reaction needs to be controlled. Nor do I know how to explain that sometimes we do have to move on when what we wanted didn't happen and cannot be corrected.

[_betsy_]

The out-of-synch child book may help shed some perspective.

DD is 3 and has moments of this type of rigidity. She sometimes gets it into her head that she needs this particular piece of an item, and another, duplicate piece can't be substituted. Like, she needs to have the napkin on top of the pile, and if I use that one for something else and then give her the next, identical to me, napkin it's a meltdown. because I said I'd give her a napkin to clean up with, and she had plans for the napkin I unfortunately used for something else. it really is all about the napkin, which in her mind was hers. Sure, it's more likely to happen if she's tired or hungry or otherwise cranky, but really, it's rigidity in the idea of what's "hers" and what to me is identical but different - and to her is just totally different and wrong. Replacement in those instances does not help. I can sometimes talk her through it, and sometimes can't. Either way, a few hours or even days later, she'll come to terms with it and bring it up again out of the blue, and be able to discuss it more.

The Out-of-Sync Child books may really help.

[OGirlieMama]

Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades

He feels wronged.

That's not always it, but it was today. It is the source of many, many tantrums. And the truth is that I agree with him. I have a very rigid sense of right and wrong and always have. I've lost friends because of it. My parents cut me off financially because of it (because I was in an interracial relationship and wouldn't bail to keep them from embarassment). So, I do know where he's coming from, but I also know that I internalize my anger more. As I've gotten older, I've learned to channel big anger (over social injustices) into an activist life. I just don't know how to transfer those lessons to DS.

In his mind, today, she asked if he wanted his cake broken. He said no. She broke it. That shouldn't have happened. And, he is right, but what's done is done. If he'd broken the cake accidentally, he would've been fine with me eating his piece and letting him get a new one. It was just that he kept yelling, "but she didn't listen to me! She broke my cake!" He did this once because he asked DH to cut his pancakes. DH said okay, just a second. He was taking his insulin at the time. MIL reached over and cut DS' pancakes. He told her no, he wanted Dad to but she didn't listen. He wouldn't eat because he asked his dad. His dad said yes. He told MIL not to cut them. To him there is no wavering from his position.

I don't know how to explain that sometimes your position is right but the reaction needs to be controlled. Nor do I know how to explain that sometimes we do have to move on when what we wanted didn't happen and cannot be corrected.

How old is your son? If he's looking for a partner who totally "gets" him, I'll give him my daughter Katie's number when the time comes. She is very specific about who is allowed to cut her pancakes (and it changes from breakfast to breakfast) and will go absolutely insane with anger if the wrong person does it. She also wants to determine who drives the car when we go somewhere, and things like that, and heaven forbid the "wrong" person gets in that driver's seat.

[mamazee]

My daughter was like that too. I read somewhere, and I can't remember where, that one of the things kids learn through tantrums is the concept of futility. That no matter how upset we get with how things are and how much we'd like them to be different, and how much other people would like things to be different, some things can't be changed. Like once the cake was broken in two, it couldn't be changed back. It was over and there was no way to undo it. So he hasn't learned the concept of futility yet - that no matter how much he wishes that it hadn't been done, and no matter how much you wish you could help him change the way things are, it's all over and there's no way around it. He will get it eventually.

And I don't know if there is a good way to handle a meltdown except to muddle through and try to get to the other side with everyone involved relatively unscathed. And wait for the meltdown stage to be outgrown. Over the past two to three years, my dd will occasionally still have a meltdown if she's sick, but it's been at least a year since that's even happened. She's 7 now.

[madskye]

My critique--you should give yourself a big hand for keeping your cool. MY DD (4) had a similar tantrum last week and I just lost it. I am still reeling from the shame and embarassment of my reaction. Not the mom I want to be, ever.

I've been talking to her a lot since then about taking deep breaths before she starts screaming and I've been looking for new books and techniques to help her calm down. I've been trying to tell her when she's calm, that it's ok to be angry, and she can tell me that she doesn't want something/what's wrong--but by speaking to me, not by screaming, hitting, and kicking. We had a family meeting where we specifically addressed the hitting and kicking, because even though I know tantrums are normal, I really wanted to particularly address the physical stuff--to me that is what tips it over into something that I can't handle.

[Tjej]

It sounds like you handled it well, IMO. Like a PP was saying, I've read to about learning futility - perhaps pointing out the futility of it might help make the tantrum stage shorter? It's hard, and I get his frustration. I don't like it when people ask false questions.

Tjej

[JL83]

We've been going through this too.

What we finally decided is to go with whether or not the child's request/freakout of a 3rd party is "reasonable" on a global scale. (It's actually alot nicer and more fair than it sounds).

In the case of the cake, you can't undo it. We will offer acceptable and reasonable alternatives. So if it's possible to get a full piece of cake (like they aren't being cut in half so that there's enough) we will offer that. So her choices become cake or no cake. Throwing a fit isn't an option. If the option (like it's the last piece) is the broken cake or no cake, we offer that. We will offer a chance to calm down and then represent the options. But we won't spend our entire day on it. (DD is 3 and can throw epic hour+ long tantrums because she has a VERY hard time moving on from something that hurt her).

If she isn't willing/able to calm down (we can tell if she's trying or if she's past that) then we leave. We've had to leave alot of things recently. But we just go. We try to smile at the other people and stay calm and just get out of there. We don't offer things like walking unless she asks. Then it's a 1 chance kind of deal.

With the pancake. We've had to institute a "nearest adult" rule. For us that's reasonable. There are often alot of adults around and it was getting ridiculous and confusing when she'd ask 4 different people to do 4 different things and freak out when people didn't do what she told them. We will cater to it much more if it's just DH and I around. But if there are other people, then it's the first one who can do it does it. If she doesn't like it, that's her deal. We'll help her and give her tools to deal with her disappointment, but we're not going to have everyone jumping all the time or walking on eggshells. To us, that's not reasonable.

I will say that it sounds like your son was really tired and needed a break. I don't think I would have stuck around for so long doing the in/out thing. When DD is done and needs to go, then we go. It's too hard for some kids to regain their equilibrium with the same stimuli going on.

[labdogs42]

Originally Posted by OGirlieMama

How old is your son? If he's looking for a partner who totally "gets" him, I'll give him my daughter Katie's number when the time comes. She is very specific about who is allowed to cut her pancakes (and it changes from breakfast to breakfast) and will go absolutely insane with anger if the wrong person does it. She also wants to determine who drives the car when we go somewhere, and things like that, and heaven forbid the "wrong" person gets in that driver's seat.

LOL. I thought it was only my kid who did the whole mini-dictator about who is going to drive thing!! He will go absolutely ballistic if the "wrong" person gets in the driver's seat!

Anyway, for the OP, I think you handled the situation well. And I just want to say thank you for posting this. It really helps me to know that I'm not the only person in the world with a very rigid child (sometimes).

[SeekingJoy]

Originally Posted by JL83

We've been going through this too.

What we finally decided is to go with whether or not the child's request/freakout of a 3rd party is "reasonable" on a global scale. (It's actually alot nicer and more fair than it sounds).

In the case of the cake, you can't undo it. We will offer acceptable and reasonable alternatives. So if it's possible to get a full piece of cake (like they aren't being cut in half so that there's enough) we will offer that. So her choices become cake or no cake. Throwing a fit isn't an option. If the option (like it's the last piece) is the broken cake or no cake, we offer that. We will offer a chance to calm down and then represent the options. But we won't spend our entire day on it. (DD is 3 and can throw epic hour+ long tantrums because she has a VERY hard time moving on from something that hurt her).

If she isn't willing/able to calm down (we can tell if she's trying or if she's past that) then we leave. We've had to leave alot of things recently. But we just go. We try to smile at the other people and stay calm and just get out of there. We don't offer things like walking unless she asks. Then it's a 1 chance kind of deal.

With the pancake. We've had to institute a "nearest adult" rule. For us that's reasonable. There are often alot of adults around and it was getting ridiculous and confusing when she'd ask 4 different people to do 4 different things and freak out when people didn't do what she told them. We will cater to it much more if it's just DH and I around. But if there are other people, then it's the first one who can do it does it. If she doesn't like it, that's her deal. We'll help her and give her tools to deal with her disappointment, but we're not going to have everyone jumping all the time or walking on eggshells. To us, that's not reasonable.

I will say that it sounds like your son was really tired and needed a break. I don't think I would have stuck around for so long doing the in/out thing. When DD is done and needs to go, then we go. It's too hard for some kids to regain their equilibrium with the same stimuli going on.

Intuitively, we have learned to do something very similar with DS. He, too, (like most 3 yr olds?) has a tendency to want it his way. And, he has an exaggerated sense of justice. His view point, his truth is the only right one. Life and society isn't like that, and I see it as our responsibility to teach him how to navigate interpersonal relationships well enough to see others perspectives, flexibly adapt to new realities, and accept what can't be changed.

Sometimes we accommodate him, for example, with which parent helps to get him ready for bed. But, we also talk to him a great deal about the grey in life. Once the crayon is broken, it's broken. And, I am a meanie, and I actually won't buy him a new one. If the cake was broken, I wouldn't have switched.

[heartmama]

I think you did fine. I would have picked him up and left the first time he resumed the screaming though--I gave ds one reminder to calm down. If he kept it up he was picked up and taking home without another word said. Yes, it made him furious in the short term. Yes, he screamed harder and kicked and cried. But he was doing that anyway. In the long term, he was able to calm down with the first reminder and enjoyed outings and experiences more because he was not falling apart as fast over the little stuff. For whatever reason, ds had much better self control when my response to tantrums were swift and non-negotiable (I was calm, just matter of fact and not swayed by further hysterics).

[Eeyore35]

well,I don't drive,so I can't cater to my daughter and just leave when she throws a fit. we'd have to wait for a bus,or bother someone for a ride..so yeah,she has to deal.

My daughter has stuff like your son does that bugs her. I accomodate her when I can. When I can't,she has to deal. In that case,if she refused the deal to get new cake,I"d have said fine,then a no cake. If she calmed down,I"d let her have cake. If not,she'd be taken out until she calmed down. Depending why she was acting out,I might have taken her to the batroom,and talked ot her til she calmed down. If she was overtired,she could just freak out there til she calmed down. If she was just being defiant,well,she'd be sitting in timeout being ignored until she calmed down. Very rarely takes more than a few minutes.

[mommy2maya]

For the people with kids who insist on who drives, do you give in to that? At what point is the kid the one who calls the shots, and at what point do you so, No, Daddy is driving today, and that is an adult decision to be made, sorry, it is not your call.

OP, I think you definitely handled it perfectly. You showed your child that you can have alternatives, and if you don't want the alternatives, then you go home to recoup. Freaking out is not acceptable and not going to fix the broken cake.

[AbbieB]

I'm guessing your son is 3, maybe 4. My DD had the hardest time with that kind of stuff at that age. It has gotten better, but it seemed like such a slow process.

I think you did great. What else could you have done?

I get that some people see catering to a sensitive child as a little indulgent. Yeah, to us the issue that the child is melting down over seems trivial, but to the child it's not. I see it as my job as the parent of a small child that is struggling to try to keep the frustration to a minimum, so if I can accommodate I do. A frustrated, screaming child is no longer learning and making progress toward coping with their own unique quirks.

The PP about making reasonable accommodations was right on in my opinion.

[SeekingJoy]

Originally Posted by AbbieB

I get that some people see catering to a sensitive child as a little indulgent. Yeah, to us the issue that the child is melting down over seems trivial, but to the child it's not. I see it as my job as the parent of a small child that is struggling to try to keep the frustration to a minimum, so if I can accommodate I do. A frustrated, screaming child is no longer learning and making progress toward coping with their own unique quirks.

This is a great perspective, although I don't agree. I see a parent's job as not to minimize sources of frustration, but to model and guide a child to learn to deal with sources of frustration. Of course, I don't try to set my kid up for failure, and for most situations it means we avoid large crowds, unreasonable social expectations, noisy groups, etc. With my kids, I actually wouldn't even take them to a church social, but OP's kid must typically hold it together there.

It doesn't mean I accommodate unreasonable requests. For the broken cake, *someone* has to either eat the broken piece or it is wasted. Why should the OP have to eat it? Instead of dwelling on why the woman cutting the cake "broke it" when she shouldn't have, it probably would help her son if (once he was calm, even if hours later) they talked about possible solutions going forward. It can't be unbroken. The choice is broken cake or no cake. Or ask nicely to trade with someone who doesn't care. It isn't meltdown = no cake.

The reality is that the OP's kid makes mistakes, too. I wouldn't think the OP fixes for him or ignores those either. Instead, she probably encourages him to apologize and make amends as possible. When someone else makes a mistake, it should be handled similarly. The LO could explain why he was upset to the cake cutting woman and ask for an apology. Learning to treat others with forgiveness and tolerance is a really important lesson and accommodating a child who insists they are right without finding a way to move forward doesn't work.

Another family rule that really helps us is "you NEVER get your way when you whine, cry or fuss." No second chances. It sounds harsh, but when we experiment every few months with letting the kids calm down and ask again, it just doesn't work. Their meltdowns are usually a sign that they are hungry, stressed or tired, not that the small slight is actually a big deal. So, we bail.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

With my kids, I actually wouldn't even take them to a church social, but OP's kid must typically hold it together there.

Yes, he's normally fine there. A friend of ours planned a day of the dead service/celebration, and it was intergenerational. The kids were pretty involved with the service. DS said later that he "loved" it, but I think that on top of the social part was too much. The kicker was that we were going to a pumpkin patch as a group later, but we had a special deal and had to wait until 6:00 to go. We were all just killing time until then, which was another thing for DS - he was hyped up about the prospect of going on a hayride.

Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

It doesn't mean I accommodate unreasonable requests. For the broken cake, *someone* has to either eat the broken piece or it is wasted. Why should the OP have to eat it? Instead of dwelling on why the woman cutting the cake "broke it" when she shouldn't have, it probably would help her son if (once he was calm, even if hours later) they talked about possible solutions going forward. It can't be unbroken. The choice is broken cake or no cake. Or ask nicely to trade with someone who doesn't care. It isn't meltdown = no cake.

Well, I'll eat the cake because I don't care if it's broken or not. I was going to eat a piece anyway, so it wasn't a big deal to me to switch. Sometimes we have had to say "it tastes the same. There's no other option." That's usually if something accidentally breaks. His tantrum wasn't over the cake (which I don't think I made clear). It was over being asked something and then ignored when he responded.

Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

The LO could explain why he was upset to the cake cutting woman and ask for an apology.

She was totally unapologetic. She's one of those "they're children, and they don't get a say" people (and she's a teacher!). I think that pissed DS off more than anything, that she was just kind of like "well, tough." I had to walk out because *I* wanted to bite her head off for the whole situation. I know a lot of kids (people in general) are okay with the insincere question, but neither DS nor I are. I know he will be upset by other people, but when I feel they've deliberately done something, then it upsets me.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

For the people with kids who insist on who drives, do you give in to that?

DS does this as well. He wants to dictate every moment of our lives. We sometimes say "you can choose today." That's usually if we're just hopping over to a soccer match where it doesn't matter, but other times, yes we say "Daddy's driving because Mommy needs to read for class while we're driving." He's learning to be okay with there being reasons for what is going on, and I think that's his concern more than anything. He has a need to know why we're doing whatever it is. He's anti-randomness!


So, the gist is we shouldn't have given him as many options to calm down, but otherwise we did okay. It's frustrating to feel we're the only people we know who go through this. I know other families without a child who's this rigid. DD isn't, but DS just gets something in his mind and refuses to let it go.

For those of you who say "they just have to deal," I don't understand that. DH and I were in marriage counseling briefly before we realized it wasn't what we needed, but DS came up a lot. I was talking about a tantrum that ended when he darted out into the street. I had to grab him and stuff him in the car, and in the process, he smacked me pretty hard. Our therapist said, "that is not acceptable. I would tell him that." Well, yeah, I did, but that doesn't mean he just stopped. We had to talk about it later, and I'm not sure it won't ever happen again. Are other children that obedient/fearful/uninspired that one stern warning works forever? If I said to DS, "just deal with it," then he would freak out more. That would piss him off. If I put him in time-out and ignored him (which I don't do, but still...) as someone said, he would be enraged. Plus no one at church would have a good time with him screaming like that. I'm rambling, but I really don't get it when people say "just" do whatever as if there's a magic wand I don't have.

[3*is*magic]

I am still curious to know how old your son is .

I think his age plays a role in how I'd handle the situation. A three year old who gets upset about broken cake = age appropriate behavior that can involve some negotiation and second and third chances to calm down and rejoin the group.

A 6 or 7 or 8 year old who cannot cope with broken cake is a whole 'nother ball of wax, IMO. By the time they're that age I would indeed expect that they'd just "deal" and not cause a scene.

And I don't agree that the woman cutting the cake should be *asked* to apologize. If she was cutting cake for a bunch of people she was probably distracted and overwhelmed with requests, and doing the best she could. Even as a parent of young (sometimes uncooperative) children, I'd be flabbergasted if a parent or child requested an apology for being served a broken piece of cake.