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I am furious... what would you have done? UPDATE IN OP - Page 8

post #141 of 235
Quote:
The "Let's get you to sleep" came after the child tried to apologize and the dad sort of snubbed him.
True...

Quote:
So yes, I really would not have been totally offended if the mom in the that exact situation took her son away to calm down before apologizing and then went to put him down for a nap.
But she did take him away to calm down before apologizing. The dad had to clue what was going on upstairs, all he saw was that she picked up "the offender" and took no notice of "the victim".

Child hit the first time: "I don't know where DS has got the hitting from."
Child hit the second time: "I took DS upstairs, angry at what had happened."
Child comes back downstairs with mom: "Give M a kiss.....off to sleep..."

At no time according to this did the MOTHER ever offer any kind of acknowledgment or apology.
post #142 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbieB View Post
That's what I see too.

I really can not understand this thread. Clearly everyone is reading the OP and seeing a very different picture. This thread just seems to be bringing out the momma/poppa bear in everyone

I was reading the update and recent posts while nursing my 2 year old BABY. I kept looking at him and imagining him hitting another baby on the head and remembering all of the times his sister whacked him on the head (or whatever)when he was 1. Momma bear has been there to protect, but she never lashed out at another cub. Momma bear picked up the hurt baby and moved away! Maybe there was a snarl. Never a claw. KWIM?

I'm also thinking about all of the playgroups DD went to when she was 2 and under. It was a group of 4 kids. DD was the youngest, the oldest being 9 months older, the next was 7 months older and then 6 months older. This kind of stuff happened all the time, toddlers being toddlers. We moms helped each other out. We never expected there to never be a problem. We certainly never freaked out when it was our kid that was hurt. We did the best we could when our kid was the aggressor. Sometimes we were distracted and things happened that probably could have been avoided but were human and make mistakes. There was no blame. These kinds of situations are age appropriate.

What's not age appropriate is yelling and crying, pushing and shoving, the silent treatment and threatening someone's job.

OP, I'm sorry that the other family is over reacting and seems to be blaming you and your kid. Not that they are wrong for feeling protective and wronged. Just wrong for being so freaking over the top about it.

OP I think you did the best you could at the time. You may have been to lax with supervising your son while he is in this stage. You will learn from this and do better next time. Talk to your DH and settle him down. Nobody needs to have their job threatened because they had a really bad poppa bear moment.
thank you, i agree with everything you said. i have textedthe mum (shes at work atm) and apologized again for what happened... i also asked her however how she would feel being shouted at by my dp without an apology afterwards if roles would have been reversed. i dont know what reaction i will get but things ended pretty bad so cant get much worse
post #143 of 235
"mum:i am furius with dad... for taking the girls there. if i would have known that he was going to yours i would have told him not to go.
me: why?
mum:tells me about an incident last week at playgroup where ds hit her older dd (same age as william) with a small train. i dealt with it there and then, taking him away from the situation and talking to him about what hed done etc. the mum told me that she was so upset by him hitting her that she was crying. she said that she'd wanted to talk to me about it but didnt - i dont know why she didnt in the end but i wish she had as we could have dealt with it then, before it escalated."


OP, you want nothing to do with these people. In addition to the fact that they are obviously not communicating with each other about incidents they regard as Big Huge Deals, a mom who is upset to the point of tears over a hitting incident between same-age toddlers, despite the fact that her own toddler has been through a similar stage, and doesn't communicate her deeply felt trauma to either you or her coparent, well... she might just fit into North of 60's "screw loose" category. Nobody needs this level of b.s. in their living room. Make other friends whose parenting style is more in synch with yours.

And I'd be more likely to report a cop for shoving a kid than a member of any other profession. If you DO report and it IS investigated, then the moms who actually witnessed the incident will tell the story from their POV and things will proceed from there.
post #144 of 235

.


Edited by GoestoShow - 12/17/10 at 9:04am
post #145 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
True...



But she did take him away to calm down before apologizing. The dad had to clue what was going on upstairs, all he saw was that she picked up "the offender" and took no notice of "the victim".

Child hit the first time: "I don't know where DS has got the hitting from."

i did say something else, along the lines of i hope he outgrows this but they all went / go through this stage...the dad sort of shrugged in agreement but didnt really say much, in hingsight i shouldve maybe said a quick sorry...

Child hit the second time: "I took DS upstairs, angry at what had happened."

if i wouldnt have gone upstairs with him i wouldhave asked if the dad pushed ds. and then told him to "leave my house because i dont want to be shouted at or my son pushed over, even if he did something wrong which i am sorry for but there is no way i will tolerate thjat kiind of behaviour from an adult in my house" i didnt want to getinto an argument so i left to calm down

Child comes back downstairs with mom: "Give M a kiss.....off to sleep..."

he didnt let him apologize which i felt was insulting and being childish

At no time according to this did the MOTHER ever offer any kind of acknowledgment or apology.
i had to keep my mouth closed because no nice words would have come out and i dont believe shouting or arguing infront of 5 kids is the right thing either.

again, what ds did was *wrong*. but it wasnt like he was deliberately being aggressive towards his kids. (as in my son deliberately picked his children or the baby because she was smaller iyswim) in fact he wasnt aggressive in himself, just the ACT of hitting was iyswim.

this has been bothering me because i feel like the bad one here when imtrying to do the right thing... i found this on the internet earlier on today and it fits ds well:

"Your two year old sounds like he is becoming interested in other people. Hitting, pushing and grabbing toys are all ways that toddlers use to try to make contact with others, before they develop other social skills. Your son sounds like he is curious about other people. He has limited language and experience, so rather than walking up to someone and saying, "Excuse me. Can I play with you?," he shows his interest by smacking them. Subsequently, he discovers that he can get a reaction when he hits someone. He may even get two reactions, one from the person he hits and one from you. Even though the reactions probably aren’t pleasant, he is intrigued by them.

Toddlers are fascinated with what they can make happen over and over and they are also curious about how people react in different situations. Hitting people satisfies both of these interests. Furthermore, toddlers see the world only from their own point of view and therefore don’t understand that other people have different ideas and feelings than they do. "If hitting you is fun for me, I expect that it is fun for you, too." They are often very surprised at first when they hit, bite or push someone and that person cries. Sometime they continue to hit, just to see if they will get the same reaction every time and from different people.

Since they are fascinated with what they can make happen, they will repeat behaviors that cause certain predictable outcomes. These experiences can provide wonderful opportunities to learn. The frustrating thing for parents is that toddlers have to repeat behaviors numerous times before they can fully learn something. Here are some things that you can do to help your child learn positive ways to interact and also help keep other children safe in the meantime. "

this also makes sense because he has started sitting down and singing at circle time at playgroup and joins in whereas before he wasnt really interested.
post #146 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoestoShow View Post
That's not an apology. A condition has been attached to the apology.

An apology is, "I am sorry that my son hit your daughter. I am sorry that I did not realize the situation would escalate further. It's clear to me that you and your family were upset by this situation. I know now that I need to be on top of my son so this doesn't happen again, and I assure you that I will be."

Yes, the other people should apologize as well, and their apology should be, "I am sorry that I pushed your son and upset him. Clearly your family was upset by this situation. I know now that I need to deal with this situation by perhaps leaving early or calling for you before the situation escalates. I assure you I will not let this happen again by paying more attention to the situation as it is happening."

You have control over the first. You don't have any over the second. An apology should be an apology --- no buts or questions or accusations involved. Just what you did or didn't do, what you will do in the future, and that you're sorry. If you don't think it's your fault or your son's fault in anyway, then you at least apologize for the situation using a neutral phrase like, "I am sorry the situation got out of hand" or "I am sorry that this happened to your daughter."

Asking how someone else would feel in another situation after an apology makes the apology disingenuous.
you're right, of course. i have never dealt with a situation like this before tbh... i guess i felt that she didnt understand at all why i would be upset about it - she didnt aknowledge her husband shouting or pushing when i asked her about it, whether she was denying it, whether hedidnt tell her, whether she was protecting her hsuband or whatever, i dont know. but i guess thats why i felt i had to ask her.
post #147 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow View Post
I think talking to the mom was good if you don't feel like talking to the dad. But your dh decided to report this guy after you talked to the mom, it sounds as if he did it because she didn't apologise. That seems to be a huge over reaction from here and an incredibly bad reason to report someone to the police.

I can now see even more why this man was upset thoug from your update. Your son had hit his dd before. Then hit his baby twice, leaving a mark. And your response was "I don't know where the hitting is coming from." when he first hit the baby. That sounds dismisive, and the fact is, you do know your son is going through this stage, because he had done it the week before. You chose to allow your tired, cranky, hitting stage toddler to repeatedly hit a baby.

Also, you keep talking about how pushing your son is not the way to teach him not to hit. You're right. But it is also not this man's responsibility to teach your son that. It is your responsitility, just like it is his responsibility to protect his children.

Should he have pushed your son, no. I do wonder though about exactly how your son was pushed, and since you were not there, I think you may be jumping to huge conclusions. If he had pushed your son that hard, I suspect one of your friends would have intervened instead of waiting for you to come in the room, at least I would hope that they would have.
Gigantic ditto
post #148 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
But she did take him away to calm down before apologizing.
Yes, I know. I thought that's what I said. And again, it would not offend me. I actually think that it was an appropriate way of dealing with the situation. I would have assumed mom was calming the kid down so he could come back and to try to apologize in his own little two year old way.
post #149 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
Nobody needs this level of b.s. in their living room. Make other friends whose parenting style is more in synch with yours.
And I have to just
post #150 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
"Your two year old sounds like he is becoming interested in other people. Hitting, pushing and grabbing toys are all ways that toddlers use to try to make contact with others, before they develop other social skills. Your son sounds like he is curious about other people. He has limited language and experience, so rather than walking up to someone and saying, "Excuse me. Can I play with you?," he shows his interest by smacking them. Subsequently, he discovers that he can get a reaction when he hits someone. He may even get two reactions, one from the person he hits and one from you. Even though the reactions probably aren’t pleasant, he is intrigued by them.

Toddlers are fascinated with what they can make happen over and over and they are also curious about how people react in different situations. Hitting people satisfies both of these interests. Furthermore, toddlers see the world only from their own point of view and therefore don’t understand that other people have different ideas and feelings than they do. "If hitting you is fun for me, I expect that it is fun for you, too." They are often very surprised at first when they hit, bite or push someone and that person cries. Sometime they continue to hit, just to see if they will get the same reaction every time and from different people.
None of my kids have EVER gone through a hitting stage, and the third youngest is 2.5 and still isn't hitting. The youngest, of course (7 months) may prove me wrong. So this whole "developmentally appropriate" thing is outside my experience. Not saying it isn't so, just saying I haven't experienced it. Yet.
post #151 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i had to keep my mouth closed because no nice words would have come out and i dont believe shouting or arguing infront of 5 kids is the right thing either.

again, what ds did was *wrong*. but it wasnt like he was deliberately being aggressive towards his kids. (as in my son deliberately picked his children or the baby because she was smaller iyswim) in fact he wasnt aggressive in himself, just the ACT of hitting was iyswim.

this has been bothering me because i feel like the bad one here when imtrying to do the right thing... i found this on the internet earlier on today and it fits ds well:

"Your two year old sounds like he is becoming interested in other people. Hitting, pushing and grabbing toys are all ways that toddlers use to try to make contact with others, before they develop other social skills. Your son sounds like he is curious about other people. He has limited language and experience, so rather than walking up to someone and saying, "Excuse me. Can I play with you?," he shows his interest by smacking them. Subsequently, he discovers that he can get a reaction when he hits someone. He may even get two reactions, one from the person he hits and one from you. Even though the reactions probably aren’t pleasant, he is intrigued by them.

Toddlers are fascinated with what they can make happen over and over and they are also curious about how people react in different situations. Hitting people satisfies both of these interests. Furthermore, toddlers see the world only from their own point of view and therefore don’t understand that other people have different ideas and feelings than they do. "If hitting you is fun for me, I expect that it is fun for you, too." They are often very surprised at first when they hit, bite or push someone and that person cries. Sometime they continue to hit, just to see if they will get the same reaction every time and from different people.

Since they are fascinated with what they can make happen, they will repeat behaviors that cause certain predictable outcomes. These experiences can provide wonderful opportunities to learn. The frustrating thing for parents is that toddlers have to repeat behaviors numerous times before they can fully learn something. Here are some things that you can do to help your child learn positive ways to interact and also help keep other children safe in the meantime. "

this also makes sense because he has started sitting down and singing at circle time at playgroup and joins in whereas before he wasnt really interested.
An almost 3yo hitting, repeatedly IS BEING AGGRESSIVE. I don't know how much more needs to happen before you would consider it aggression.

The little blurb you found about toddlers smacking each other to show interest? That is quackery. Or at best, applies to YOUNG two year olds. I have four children. The youngest is 18m. She sometimes gets excited and smacks at me, but not repeatedly smacking people with hair brushes. That is just ridiculous and unacceptable. Especially for an almost three year old.

Also, I'm just curious who your dh is thinking of reporting this other dad to. The police? I can't see that there is anything to report?
post #152 of 235
And, presumably, this playdate was several days ago, and the baby still has a mark. You have to hit pretty darn hard to leave a mark that lasts that long. If it would have been my child who was hit, I'd have been pretty mad too. I can guarantee I would have raised my voice. I would have been even madder had the mom not apologized profusely to me, and practically fall over herself to make sure my baby was ok.
post #153 of 235
You know, we used to have playdates with this other family whose two year old would constantly try to hit my baby. He left bruises several times, and the mom still wouldn't stay right on top of him. The last time we were with them I sitting on the floor playing with dd1, nursing the baby, he had already hit dd2 in the head once that day. I saw him running towards us with a wooden block acting like he was going to hit her again, so I threw up my other arm to protect her head, and as a result, accidently knocked him down. It probably did look like I did it on purpose, but I was just trying to protect my child. The 2 year old's mom was a little annoyed and made a snippy comment about how I needed to be more careful, so that was the last time that we went around them.

I guess I can see it from the other family's point of view and why they are also upset. He shouldn't have pushed, but you weren't there, so you don't know if it was a situation like mine, where he was trying to protect his baby and didn't mean to knock your son down.
post #154 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
North of 60 wrote:

"And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young."

If I knew you in real life, I'm sure I wouldn't be watching you like a hawk. For one thing, you have a 3.5 year old, not a year old baby who you have just started bringing to playdates.

But frankly, I think your generalization (that inexperienced parents who fail to use handle routine toddler herding effectively "have a screw loose") is way more insulting and way less useful than my framing. This stuff is not that easy, especially in our culture that does not exactly train people in gentle ways to handle ANYTHING, much less parenting! It's been my experience that the playdate mama who is a nerve-wracking cross to bear when her child is 1 can end up being a pleasure to be around a year later - because her child has spent that year teaching her how toddlers act and what works/doesn't work in terms of redirection and discipline, and she has been wise enough to receive that knowledge and chill out. !
What? Are you serious? I NEVER, ever said that that inexperienced parents who fail to handle routine toddler herding effectively have a screw loose!! I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". People don't act like that, and do all of those things because they're a new parent. Good gravy.

You're either being dramatic and sarcastic to make a point, or I'm being way to literal in the interpretation of "crazily over reacting, freaking out, getting angry, yelling, crying, and being inappropriately physical", because that's the behavior of someone who has a screw loose! And NO WHERE am I saying that parents who are unable to handle toddlers are this way. It's to point out that your generalization of NEW PARENTS is insulting if you're really suggesting that people keep an eye on new parents to make sure they don't act this way. I'm a new parent to an only child, and I yet to EVER act the way you're describing us!
post #155 of 235
OP! This sounds very stressful!

The part you quoted from that article makes it sound like "Oh well, Johnny hits because he's fascinated by the outcome. Nothing to do about it!" But it goes on to give some good advice like: Support the victim, supervise your child closely, learn to anticipate behavior, choose situations where he is likely to be successful and choose durable playmates.

My third child went through a hitting phase. I found it was triggered by a gym class and he invariably went for younger children. He was fine at story time where he was one of the youngest. But at gymnastics, which was 1 & 2 yo, I had to tail him constantly. I finally quit going because it was really stressful. The other moms would be chatting and I'd be running around trying to keep my son from pushing, grabbing, etc.

I think if you are going to do playgroups, you are going to have to constantly supervise your child. I know other moms should do it, but you know, if you've never had a "hitter", you don't realize how quickly things can happen. I sure didn't, until I had my third. This isn't forever, with my son it really only lasted a couple months.
post #156 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoestoShow View Post
That's not an apology. A condition has been attached to the apology.

An apology is, "I am sorry that my son hit your daughter. I am sorry that I did not realize the situation would escalate further. It's clear to me that you and your family were upset by this situation. I know now that I need to be on top of my son so this doesn't happen again, and I assure you that I will be."

Yes, the other people should apologize as well, and their apology should be, "I am sorry that I pushed your son and upset him. Clearly your family was upset by this situation. I know now that I need to deal with this situation by perhaps leaving early or calling for you before the situation escalates. I assure you I will not let this happen again by paying more attention to the situation as it is happening."

You have control over the first. You don't have any over the second. An apology should be an apology --- no buts or questions or accusations involved. Just what you did or didn't do, what you will do in the future, and that you're sorry. If you don't think it's your fault or your son's fault in anyway, then you at least apologize for the situation using a neutral phrase like, "I am sorry the situation got out of hand" or "I am sorry that this happened to your daughter."

Asking how someone else would feel in another situation after an apology makes the apology disingenuous.
all of that
post #157 of 235
What an awful situation! I think your friends are officially qualifying as not nice people now.

I have experienced this too with other people's kids. I've noticed 2 1/2 years tends to be a pushy, hitting stage--as you reminded the other mom.

I've had a few moms that I've really liked but couldn't invite over because every time we go together, their kid beat the crap out of mine. Now their kids are older and it's much better.

I'm sort of afraid of when DD hits the hitting stage.

Hang in there momma. You did nothing wrong.

V
post #158 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
he didnt let him apologize which i felt was insulting and being childish.
FWIW, I don't like the whole concept of a hurt kid having to endure more contact from the kid who hurt them under the guise of an apology. I know that your heart was in the right place when you took your son over to kiss the girl, but if a kid had hit mine repeatedly, I probably wouldn't subject her to further contact either -- by that point, she was probably scared of him. I wouldn't have been rude to you about it, but I might have said, "I appreciate the apology, but she's scared so I'll just keep holding her up here."

I even do that between my own two kids -- if my 5yo DS is too rough with my 1yo DD and she gets scared and comes to me, I'll hold her up, and if he comes over to give her a hug and she stiffens I'll just say, "Sorry honey, she doesn't feel like hugging right now because she's still scared. Maybe in a little while after she sees you being more gentle you can try again."

Anyway, all that to say that that part in and of itself may not have been intentionally insulting or childish, but I can certainly see how you interpreted it that way given all the other awful stuff that was going on. I hope you guys resolve things soon.
post #159 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
It's been my experience that the playdate mama who is a nerve-wracking cross to bear when her child is 1 can end up being a pleasure to be around a year later - because her child has spent that year teaching her how toddlers act and what works/doesn't work in terms of redirection and discipline, and she has been wise enough to receive that knowledge and chill out.

I'd hate to think that the skill set and attitude I started with when my youngest was 1 was the skill and and attitude that I need to rely on to parent him successfully through high school. The learning curve is infinite, I hope!
I'm going to echo North of 60 and say that you are coming across as insulting. The learning curve is infinite whether one is a FTM or a mom of many as evidenced by the thousands of threads here on MDC. We cannot generalize all first time parents like that. For example, I became a FTM at 40 who had already helped raise a child, am the oldest of 5 siblings with a large span of years in between, and I've been an RN for over a decade. In other words, my comfort level is a bit different than perhaps a 19 yr old FTM who had no sibs, etc. Hey I have tons to learn as it is but we all do, none of us need to be singled out.
post #160 of 235
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the people who've "never seen/had a child hit like that at that age" haven't had their children in daycare at that age. We had to put our dk's in daycare when they were 2 and 4, and the 2 year old came home with marks at least once a week from some child being agressive. The workers were very good at staying on top of things, but children at that age are also prone to that type of behaviour. Seldom was it the same offender, and often it was as much not paying attention as it was full out agression. Some of it was what we referred to as "toddler justice" - as in my dd wouldn't share a crayon with her best friend so her best friend bit dd's hand. Certainly not "ok" or right, and it was addressed, but in the mind of a child that age, it was the appropriate reaction until taught otherwise. Once dd moved to the 3's it was still a problem for about 6 months (80% of the class moved up together, so it was the same age range/group of children). It wasn't until she was around 3 1/2 that the agressive behaviour really slacked off a lot. Funny thing, by then they were all talking and things were a lot easier for them to communicate.
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