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I am furious... what would you have done? UPDATE IN OP - Page 9

post #161 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow View Post
Should he have pushed your son, no. I do wonder though about exactly how your son was pushed, and since you were not there, I think you may be jumping to huge conclusions. If he had pushed your son that hard, I suspect one of your friends would have intervened instead of waiting for you to come in the room, at least I would hope that they would have.
Exactly. The friends are telling her after the fact that the dad "pushed" her DS. Had I been in that situation and I had seen a man push my friend's son, you can be sure I would have both immediately said someting to him AND went to the kitchen and told her.

OP, I agree with a PP in that you need to hover until your son grows out of this stage. You said you don't know why he's hitting or when he's going to do it so you need to be right there to try to prevent some of it.
post #162 of 235
I've read this whole thread, and the OPs update. OP, what is still disturbing to me from reading this whole thread is how attached you are to YOUR version of what the father of the 1 yr old did, despite you not having seen it with your own eyes, and the fact that you are still acting like you didn't have a real responsibility to either stay with your son after the first hit with the hairbrush or somehow ask a specific other person to keep watch of him if you had to step away.

The only thing you have confirmed with your friends is that the 1 yr old's father put a hand on your son and he fell over. What the father's intention was in putting a hand on your child - separating him from his daughter vs. actually shoving him and trying to push him over - DOES MATTER when you start trying to report someone to the police and get him in trouble at his own job. Father also shouldn't have shouted at your son when you brought him back to apologize, so that there is the only clearly inappropriate thing father did. But what happened with the hand/falling over/shoving?/separating? you really still don't know and you are talking like you know the intent.

I'm not saying the father was definitely only trying to protect his daughter and didn't mean to knock your son over. I don't know, no one except the dad knows what was going through his head in that moment. But since you don't know either and only have confirmation of what physically happened, you are going on to follow up on this with certainty about dad's intent that I just dont understand.

Your husband is no doubt also telling the story (like to the patrol officer) with the version of the father purposely shoving your son with the goal of shoving him, vs. again possibly only trying to protect his daughter and either being too strong with his hand or as others have pointed out, sometimes it takes almost nothing to cause a 2 1/2 yr old to lose their balance.

The other moms can't tell you what the father's intent was unless there were details in how he did what he did that make it clear he intended to hurt your son. I work for child welfare and if I heard your account of the whole thing I'd say no way can you be sure that is abuse, ESPECIALLY because the father in question was protecting his daughter after your son hit her for the SECOND time.

What I also haven't seen anyone here address so far (or maybe I missed it) is that no matter how much 2-3 yr olds are still working on impulse control and still sometimes lash out without meaning to, they CAN be PURPOSEFUL and they can INTENTIONALLY hit a specific person for a specific reason. They are *not* too young to form intent to hurt. Yes they are still children, so I"m in no way saying they should be punished beyond regular boundary setting that is age appropriate, but OP you're acting like your son didn't possess the ability to be pissed that this little baby still had the hairbrush he wanted to play with and go and hit her twice on purpose.

Since you came to this board and asked everyone what they thought, I'm just gonna tell you straight: you are in for a lot more difficult situations with friends and their kids if you fail to really see your own son as someone who yes, can be a victim and of course can be hurt, but also as someone who already can intend to hurt another child (in a 2 1/2 yr old way) and if you only see him as a victim in situations like this you're going to be challenged in your ability to monitor him and help him with his much needed boundaries because you're not going to think he's got a choice in the matter. When often he does.
post #163 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineJ View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the people who've "never seen/had a child hit like that at that age" haven't had their children in daycare at that age. .
That isn't completely true. I have a daycare. I've had it for over 25 years, and never, ever, after 100s of two year olds have I had a two year old hit a nine month old. Maybe hug, or run into a nine month old, but I can't even imagine any of my two year old hitting a baby.

They occasionally hit each other. But, it's extremely rare. It's not how I am hovering over them or even preventing it. They just don't hit.

Now a 15 month old..... maaaaaybe will hit. But, even that is rare. At two and a half, I can give them a hard job to do, and they will happily do it. They can put their shoes on, they can take their clothes off, and some of them can put their own shorts on. I can ask them to go find Kayla's shoes, and they will come back with Kayla's shoes.

Hitting among two year olds is usually a "fight" that needs intervention. It's never (in my experience) an act of agression just because they want to see what happens.

********************

I DO think these parents are overreacting though. They are taking things to a whole new level that isn't appropriate. Kids act badly sometimes. It's not like he's running through the house with knives. BOTH of the baby's parents took it too far and it was downright mean. What was the point of the mom saying what she said? I actually thougth the father of the baby would feel really bad about shoving the OP's son, but I can see why he's so overprotective.. Mom's a freak!

BUT..... Karma sucks. One day, their child will be the "hitter", and hopefully they will see things from the other side.
post #164 of 235
Wow. This whole thing is the *picture* of over-reaction- by everyone. This went from a frustrating and questionable handling of a child's behavior at a toddler playdate by a bunch of adults who contributed to this mishandling (including the mom) to a situation that is going to involve the police? Wow.

Look, OP. Whatever happened, it sucks. But it looks like you are no longer friends with this family (and, looks like maybe not even the playgroup- drama, choosing sides, a police report that would HAVE to have them involved, as you didn't even see this incident, etc.) so you don't need to see this family again or worry about this guy. I think "abuse" would be hard to prove, if not entirely impossible (not to mention that it may not have happened at all). Your son was not hurt. The other child was not too hurt.

Let it go. Get your husband to let it go. It is not worth this. Really. It was lousy. You now have a lot to think about. Move on.
post #165 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexsam View Post

Let it go. Get your husband to let it go. It is not worth this. Really. It was lousy. You now have a lot to think about. Move on.
I agree. Please - just let it go.
post #166 of 235
OP and the update..... Wow, that is all I can say. You are creating a huge scene, your DH is creating a huge scene. Over something that you have second hand and your DH third. I hope that you realize that taking something like that to the police is going to get YOU labeled as the kooks...

This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!
post #167 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ofwait View Post
OP and the update..... Wow, that is all I can say. You are creating a huge scene, your DH is creating a huge scene. Over something that you have second hand and your DH third. I hope that you realize that taking something like that to the police is going to get YOU labeled as the kooks...

This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!
Yeah I agree with that, it's one of those live and learn things, kids fight kids get hurt kids get their feelings hurt. Your Ds wasn't injured, big burly Daddy over reacted and I bet he feels like an idiot for it. I'd just move on. I've had a hitter biter and a recipient of the hits and bites, it's part and parcel of having toddlers.
Would you really want this guy to lose his job and ability to support his family over something like this. He knows darn well (and so does his wife) that he shouldn't have done it. But I bet he's too embarrassed to admit it.
post #168 of 235
I would venture to say that the little girl's dad instinctively reacted to protect his child and perhaps separated the two children quickly which led to your son falling.
If a 2.5 year old was hitting my baby I would do the same thing... Its instinctive almost to act before thinking in those situation.
I think after the first incident OP, you should have kept more of an eye on your son. 2.5 is old enough to be able to know that hitting (and especially hitting a baby which is nowhere close to his view of a competitive peer) is not okay IMO. And it seems like this family is pretty frustrated themselves since this is the 3rd or more incident.
I would let it go at this point.
post #169 of 235
OP, I can see myself doing what that daddy did, and feeling justified in protecting my child (not at all supporting violence, but his instinctive reaction).

Your posts remind me of the moms who always play their kids as the victims, and never bother putting themselves in others' shoes.

I think you've overreacted. IMO, your child was in the wrong, and you were in the wrong, period. And now you've probably polarized and destroyed a playgroup.
post #170 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ofwait View Post
This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!

Yes. Now you really just need to stop this all and let it be done. If you go through with this with the police, it has the potential to be terrible for all involved and good for no one.

Let it go. Move on.
post #171 of 235
This thread is why in a nutshell I've never been to nor instigated a single playdate in the entire childhoods of both my children. (Who are now 8 and 13).

I like organic friendships. Not set ups.

Yikes. I hope ya'll can find good people to have in your lives with little ones that mesh and bond with your little ones.
post #172 of 235
I'm still amazed you would try to have a man fired over yelling at your kid, and separating him from hitting his baby with a hairbrush.
post #173 of 235

Attitude

From the OP: "again, what ds did was *wrong*. but it wasnt like he was deliberately being aggressive towards his kids. (as in my son deliberately picked his children or the baby because she was smaller iyswim) in fact he wasnt aggressive in himself, just the ACT of hitting was iyswim"

From Viola: "My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process."

OP, I can't really see what you mean. You said your son hit the baby twice because she was playing with a toy he wanted. He was motivated to hit her in order to get his way. Hitting is normal and expected in some kids at this age, (just like biting) but motivated hitting like this is also aggressive and anti-social, which is why you're teaching him not to do it, rather than just seeing it as a stage that passes. Your child is young, but he is a human being, not a saint. We've got to see and love our children for who they really are - humans who must struggle with the impulses that we all have and all need to control.

Regarding Viola, the father from the original post, and all the other comments on fathers and playgroups: People pay a lot of lip service to how important fathers and male influences are in raising boys. We pay a lot of lip service to "it takes a village." But when it comes down to actual male actions and opinions and the ways that they are different from ours, we often don't give them any real respect. I'm not saying I'm different - I'm probably as bad as anyone. But I recognize that sometimes men are pretty good at cutting to the chase.

In a way, this whole discussion makes me long for the days when adults were happy to be adults and didn't take the events of a playgroup so personally.
post #174 of 235
This is what bothers me about the update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i dealt with that at the time and im sorry it happened but i cant glue william to me all the time and i cant predict when he might do it. all i can do is deal with it and apologize.
Here you have a 2.5 year old who you know is prone to hitting right now, and since you're not willing to be 100% vigilant in supervising him around other children I'm wondering what your idea of "dealing with it" is? Apologizing?

This kind of reminds of the old adage; "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I think you owe it to the kids your son is playing with to be 100% on top of supervision, which means, yes, he will have to be glued to you at playdates. If you have to leave the room, ask your friends to watch him for you. Take him with you. Or skip the playdate if it won't be possible for you to watch him the entire time.

You may not be able to predict it to an exact moment, but if you're checked in on the supervision you might be able to see signs of him getting frustrated/excited/whatever which might indicate it's time to take a break before he resorts to hitting. And if you can't prevent him from hitting, at the very least you can stop him from doing it again, which shows the other parents you're being pro-active about trying to prevent him from hurting other kids. You seem hell bent on apologies, but have not mentioned anything about preventing it, which I think is more important.
post #175 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by cattmom View Post
Hitting is normal and expected in some kids at this age, (just like biting) but motivated hitting like this is also aggressive and anti-social, which is why you're teaching him not to do it, rather than just seeing it as a stage that passes.
But is talking to a 2.5 year old really enough to teach them not to hit? 2.5 year olds aren't know for their reasoning skills. A play date/get together/trip to the park/whatever would end the moment my daughter hit someone. Even now at 3.5 she doesn't have the attention span for long talks about the ins and outs why certain things are not Ok. It has to be short and sweet otherwise she tunes out and the message is lost. If this is happening everytime her son hits someone, is he really "getting" these talks if they're the ONLY way she's dealing with the problem?

This is the part about GD that I'm not all that thrilled about. I do believe that sometimes there needs to be consequences to our actions, even if the natural consequence is imposed by me. In this case if you hit, you won't be allowed to play. It's not safe. Today my daughter picked up my 4 month old nephew and tried to carry him across the room after I said no when she asked if she could do it. She got set up at the kitchen table with some drawing materials instead of playing with him because I can't trust her. When it comes to safety there isn't time to wait for young kids to understand a talk, or to wait for a phase to pass. I'm sure I could have had a talk with my daughter about the dangers of carrying the baby - there's pets, stairs, we had craft materials out, etc. But is she really going to stay engaged long enough for it to sink in? I doubt it. She caught on really quickly, however, when she wasn't allowed to play with him if I can't trust her to honor my answer of "no you may not carry the baby, it's not safe".

And on the issue of involving the police, I'm just floored that you're even considering it. As someone else mentioned, you will inevitably involve everyone at the playdate (as they'll be your witnesses since you didn't actually watch the situation unfold), possibly cause this man to loose his job (or pay while fighting the allegations), which of course could trickle down to affect the kids. A police officer who looses his job, or gains a poor reputation due to "child abuse" could potentially have a really hard time getting another job which could result in them loosing their house, cars, or a whole slough of other things. You may not like him, but do you want that for his children? Is he really deserving of that in this situation? I don't think so. Everyone agrees that while the reaction may be understandable he could have handled it better, but at the same time, you're child is a known hitter and you're refusing to supervise him 100% the time while he's with other children. I hope that he doesn't claim injuries and come after you for negligent behavior in retaliation to child abuse charges. Do you not see how ugly this has the potential to be? And what a complete and utter waste of resources it is?

But above all, I think you're husband is doing a horrendous job of demonstrating to your son how to deal with conflict. And considering the fact that he hits other children, now is really a good time to set a good example on how to deal with this sort of stuff.

And, I think it really sucks that you guys think this is important enough to deter the police away from catching REAL bad guys. People who use the police (and CPS and such) as a tactic for personal fights are abusing the system and potentially causing harm to people who really need the police for REAL crimes.
post #176 of 235

hitting

I don't think we disagree at all here. I'm just saying that this kind of hitting really is aggressive behavior, that the OP shouldn't be afraid of acknowledging this to herself, and that it doesn't make her son bad or unlovable, just a regular human struggling appropriately with the impulses of that age (and a bit of an extra challenge to his mom for the next few months until she can teach him to stop doing it).
post #177 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by cattmom View Post
From Viola: "My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process."

...

Regarding Viola, the father from the original post, and all the other comments on fathers and playgroups: People pay a lot of lip service to how important fathers and male influences are in raising boys. We pay a lot of lip service to "it takes a village." But when it comes down to actual male actions and opinions and the ways that they are different from ours, we often don't give them any real respect. I'm not saying I'm different - I'm probably as bad as anyone. But I recognize that sometimes men are pretty good at cutting to the chase.

In a way, this whole discussion makes me long for the days when adults were happy to be adults and didn't take the events of a playgroup so personally.
Can you clarify for me what you meant by the bolded, please? The chase that was cut to involved four people upset, where only two needed to be, and an unpleasant degree of hostility on the part of the father. That's not cutting to the chase, it's melodramatics.

North_of_60, IME of parenting two bright, lively boys (and yes, this is code for "they're a handful") as well as my little ones, talking about things is something that comes recommended most by mums of girls and sometimes hands on intervention is appropriate. With DD, a discussion will work. With my boys, I can say the same thing twenty trillion times in twenty trillion different ways and they'll still forget the next time they're faced with the same choice. Some kids are just like that, y'know? Physically removing from a situation, leaving early, a change of environment, a change of peers, close supervision, hands on, some time-in in the middle of a crowd, whatever works for your kid or kids. I've found that peer pressure can actually be very helpful with small boys, as I mentioned upthread- and therefore, getting small boys in a mix of ages can be very good for them.

OP, you haven't responded directly to any of my comments on this thread, but I'll try one more time. You're unusual in having a boy in a group that's mostly girls, right? That means that he's going to be judged more harshly for hitting than they are. It sucks, but it's a fact of life. Your kids will be punished by exclusion from playdates, from playgroups, birthday parties and all of the other things that go along with the preschool years UNLESS you step up and take responsibility for your son's behaviour. He is two. Part of recognising age-appropriate behaviour, as you do, is that you need to be right there on hand to help him navigate situations that he's not yet ready to deal with.
post #178 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberryfields View Post
well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this wwyd situation, i would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second. I would feel understanding that he was angry and upset that his baby was being hit on the head. Since the push wasn't witnessed i don't think i could be angry about it--i agree that he could have been just trying to break them up. Sometimes when i am trying to pull off a child who is being too aggressive with another one, or block someone from hitting/getting too physical, the child ends up on his/her bum. I think it is very possible that the dad was trying to protect his baby and is not really experienced in that type of situation.

I think that if you have a child who is tired/possessive/hitting (as age appropriate as that may be), you really need to be on top of your kid and keep him with you at all times (even for a quick run to the kitchen) because it is not fair to put the other parents in a position of having to defend their children from being hit/hurt. So i would chalk it up to a lesson learned and keep my ds closer to me at the next playdate.

ita
post #179 of 235
OP: I totally feel for you. My daughter went through a stage of being more aggressive than most of her friends around that age, and I know how hard it is. And it will pass.
It comes down to the fact that your child was disrespected, and that is a horrible thing to experience. But at this point, I would simply cut ties with that family, know that your son will be okay, and let it be.
post #180 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by flapjack View Post
With DD, a discussion will work. With my boys, I can say the same thing twenty trillion times in twenty trillion different ways and they'll still forget the next time they're faced with the same choice. Some kids are just like that, y'know? Physically removing from a situation, leaving early, a change of environment, a change of peers, close supervision, hands on, some time-in in the middle of a crowd, whatever works for your kid or kids.
Yes, absolutely. But what I'm wondering is, is how capable any 2 year old is at reasoning in the absence of anything else (like the supervision, change of scenery, leaving early, etc). The way her post reads is that she's just sort of letting things play out because she can't be "glued" to her son all the time (which I interpret as her not being able to watch him all the time, which is a supervision issue), and then talks to him after the fact. Not only is he not capable of reasoning, but he lacks the impulse control even if he did understand the talks about not hitting to be trusted not to hit. And after three hitting incidents with the same family within a week, clearly it's not working.
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