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I am furious... what would you have done? UPDATE IN OP - Page 10

post #181 of 235

the chase that was cut to

Gladly. The baby needed protection, and she finally got it. The boy needed to be convinced that he was doing something wrong, and he was, which was the probably reason that he was crying his eyes out, in my opinion. It's not the way I've done it myself, but a) I'm not a guy, and b) in the instances I mentioned before, both mothers apologized and intervened immediately after an incident that happened once. You see this man as the source of the melodrama, but in the OPs ongoing posts and updates, the fountain of all this furious fuming gutted exhausted shaking texting phoning where's-my-apology we're-going-to-the-cops anguish isn't him.
post #182 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
Yes, absolutely. But what I'm wondering is, is how capable any 2 year old is at reasoning in the absence of anything else (like the supervision, change of scenery, leaving early, etc). The way her post reads is that she's just sort of letting things play out because she can't be "glued" to her son all the time (which I interpret as her not being able to watch him all the time, which is a supervision issue), and then talks to him after the fact. Not only is he not capable of reasoning, but he lacks the impulse control even if he did understand the talks about not hitting to be trusted not to hit. And after three hitting incidents with the same family within a week, clearly it's not working.
Yup. I know some 2yo's who can get it from talking, but not many: and generally they are kids who have been real people-pleasers, and coincidentally all girls. For boys, my preferred response is to be on top of them until they get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cattmom View Post
Gladly. The baby needed protection, and she finally got it. The boy needed to be convinced that he was doing something wrong, and he was, which was the probably reason that he was crying his eyes out, in my opinion. It's not the way I've done it myself, but a) I'm not a guy, and b) in the instances I mentioned before, both mothers apologized and intervened immediately after an incident that happened once. You see this man as the source of the melodrama, but in the OPs ongoing posts and updates, the fountain of all this furious fuming gutted exhausted shaking texting phoning where's-my-apology we're-going-to-the-cops anguish isn't him.
Oh, I'm agreeing that ALL the melodramatics are entirely unnecessary. The thing is, if I'd been at the playdate and had seen a (female) friend of mine handle a situation like that I'd be ringing the next day to ask if anything was wrong because of the way she reacted. I'm not seeing what the male touch achieved here : apart from screaming people and alienation.
post #183 of 235
Interesting to see all the different views here.

I agree with those that have said things have gone WAY too far. Apologies need to be said & everyone moving on - whether that is the end of the friendship or not is left to be seen.

The part I most don't understand though is why the OP called the man's wife? It seems very strange to me to "report" a grown man to his wife.
post #184 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
This is what bothers me about the update:



Here you have a 2.5 year old who you know is prone to hitting right now, and since you're not willing to be 100% vigilant in supervising him around other children I'm wondering what your idea of "dealing with it" is? Apologizing?

This kind of reminds of the old adage; "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I think you owe it to the kids your son is playing with to be 100% on top of supervision, which means, yes, he will have to be glued to you at playdates. If you have to leave the room, ask your friends to watch him for you. Take him with you. Or skip the playdate if it won't be possible for you to watch him the entire time.

You may not be able to predict it to an exact moment, but if you're checked in on the supervision you might be able to see signs of him getting frustrated/excited/whatever which might indicate it's time to take a break before he resorts to hitting. And if you can't prevent him from hitting, at the very least you can stop him from doing it again, which shows the other parents you're being pro-active about trying to prevent him from hurting other kids. You seem hell bent on apologies, but have not mentioned anything about preventing it, which I think is more important.
^^This. I have an autistic child who has been going through the hitting/biting/kicking stage for about...oh, 2 years now so we have pretty much avoided playdates. As much as I'd like to get out with him more, its not fair to anyone else to have their child hit, its embarassing and exhausting for me to have to be on top of him constantly, and its not fair to ds to put him in a situation where he is inevitably going to lash out physically. I think the OP handled the situation as best as she could in the heat of the moment, but I think the wisest option would have been to either cut the playdate short or skip it altogether if her ds was tired. While I do find it disturbing that the father was a bit childish about the attemped apology (at the time of the incident), I can understand him being angry; he wasn't seeing the boy as tired toddler, he was seeing him as a threat to his baby's safety.
post #185 of 235
North of 60 wrote:

"I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". People don't act like that, and do all of those things because they're a new parent."

IME, yes, some folks absolutely do act like that. People who show no signs of being crazy in their daily lives can most definitely be made to ACT crazy when they are learning how to deal with a developmental stage they've never coped with before (although, as another poster pointed, you can have six kids and get your first hitting/biting victim with toddler #7, and as you pointed out, you can rack up a lot of experience with children before you ever have one of your own and not be discomfited at all by the typical toddler stuff).

But. You can also be a typically sane and reasonable person who gets temporarily driven to distraction when you start involving your young child in group play situations for the first time. Because it's very stressful for a lot of people. With first children, it's also often to first time the baby gets hit or has somebody take something from them, and that obviously makes the situation all that much more fraught.

You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...
post #186 of 235
Smithie I have to say, as a first time mom, I still find it somewhat insulting what you are generalizing about first time parents. I am guessing maybe you have seen something like this first hand? If so that stinks but you are painting a picture with really broad strokes kwim and it is really not fair to talk like that.

I could say that I see moms of many who have let the youngest one just run around like a maniac because they are too busy with the others and so all moms with more than one child must be like that, but this wouldn't be true of all the mothers out there of more than one child, just what I have seen with a couple of my aunt's who have 4 kiddos each.

I also don't think it is just first time parents who are "driven to distraction" all the time, point in case the father in the OPs thread has an older child.
post #187 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
North of 60 wrote:

"I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". People don't act like that, and do all of those things because they're a new parent."

IME, yes, some folks absolutely do act like that. People who show no signs of being crazy in their daily lives can most definitely be made to ACT crazy when they are learning how to deal with a developmental stage they've never coped with before (although, as another poster pointed, you can have six kids and get your first hitting/biting victim with toddler #7, and as you pointed out, you can rack up a lot of experience with children before you ever have one of your own and not be discomfited at all by the typical toddler stuff).

But. You can also be a typically sane and reasonable person who gets temporarily driven to distraction when you start involving your young child in group play situations for the first time. Because it's very stressful for a lot of people. With first children, it's also often to first time the baby gets hit or has somebody take something from them, and that obviously makes the situation all that much more fraught.

You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...
While I never acted like that, I felt sort of like acting like that at times but always got control of myself and tried to behave appropriately. There were a couple of times I got kind of pissed off (internally) when I felt some older kid wronged my daughter. As a matter of fact, I sometimes still do . I didn't and still don't carry it with me. It's more of an in the heat of the moment type thing.

It's interesting though, because I will look back like a year later when my daughter is at the same age as the kid who supposedly wronged her, and I totally get that the kid was just acting his or her age. I've really tried to work on being less judgmental and more understanding of other kids (and their parents) because of that.

It's funny too because when my daughter is playing with a younger kid and the mom doesn't have kids my daughter's age, I can see the wheels turning in her head, and I'm pretty sure she is thinking the same as I might have been when I was in her shoes..."Jeez, my kid will never act like that. What's wrong with her?"
Anyway, I may be the only one, but I didn't find your comments insulting and actually really related to them.
post #188 of 235
Quote:
It's funny too because when my daughter is playing with a younger kid and the mom doesn't have kids my daughter's age, I can see the wheels turning in her head, and I'm pretty sure she is thinking the same as I might have been when I was in her shoes..."Jeez, my kid will never act like that. What's wrong with her?"
Ah yes. I secretly enjoy when their does indeed do that, so I can say with sincerity "Yeah, ds used to do that, too."
post #189 of 235
When my son was 2 1/2 he was the same way. As soon as we heard him scream we would run to get to him before he bit or pushed.
One thing I noticed was you said your son isn't very verbal. My son wasn't at that age either. He couldn't get his words out so he did the only thing he knew how to make an action stop. If a child was taking something from him he couldn't tell them to stop. He would get frustrated and bite. All children are different! If a grown man pushed my son (or any of my children for that matter) I would have FLIPPED! Mama Bear would have come out and I would have ordered him to leave. How DARE he push YOUR son! Sure he was protecting his daughter but there are other ways to do that. My husband would have flipped as well. I am sorry this has happened to your son
On a positive note, my son is almost 4 now and there is no biting or shoving. He still will scream at the top of his lungs but we are working with him to find alternative ways to get his point across.
post #190 of 235
Thread Starter 
i havent got much time right now butb just a few things...
i deal with williams hitting, when it happens. i sometimes hover over him if i see a situation where it could happen (like sharing toys) i take him out of the room, and say somethingof the sort we dont hit, we try to be nice to each other, if you dont want something *say* NO. are you going to play nicely now? are you gong to aploligize? if he does apologize himself then thats that, if not i apologize for him cos i dont think a forced apology is sincere. if the other child is cryingall it takes is for me to point that out to him and he feels bad, goes over of his own accord and will kiss the place the other child got hurt. he feels remorse for his actions - he just doesnt yet know how to deal with them otherwise. he may be an almost 3 year old but his language development is about a year behind, he is learnig two languages and is only now catching up-hence why i think its now that he is being more "aggressive"
i know my kid hits and i feel awful aboutit. i am not saying my child is an angel. i dont need people telling me is is an aggressive pummeling bully though.

at the end of the day everyone in the room knew about this stage. ds hit a child which waswrong. he then got purposely pushed away / over and i got shouted at angrily as if i had put him up for it. i try to apologize, ds triesto apologize, the dad doesnt say a word and the mum shouts at me like i picked her two kids as the victims and put ds up for it.
if the dad wouldnt have pushed or shouted i would have "told william off" and would have apologized. ds would have seen the baby cry and probably felt remorse andapologized of his own accord as he does when he sees other people cry. i would have been mortified and made surebaby wasok, maybe getting a wet flannel / some ice or whatever.
however the shock of seeing a grown man who should be trained to control his anger pushing a 2 1/2 year old and shouting at me and then *not* apologizing for a gut reaction or even feeling sorry for hurting my son is why i have been shaking and feeling depressed and close to tears for the past two days.

it doesnt help that my brother had to close the shop down that he inherited from my dad and has been in the family for over 30 years, that my scan revealed that i might not be able to have a normal birth, never mind a homebirthb and that dps step dad who is like a dad to him is dying.
please be gentle with me i feel bad enough about this situation as it is.
post #191 of 235
I believe there may be a chance OP's son may have been "brushing" her hair... DS always hits me with brushes and combs... he thinks he is being nice and "brushing" my dreads Either way, it seems the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion... they are just children d oing child-like things. My ds is 13 months and has had a few incidences where older toddlers have either been taking things away or grabbing his face/hair. Ds says "No!" a few times, or "Don't touch" and eventually will push the toddler away/over. I don't usually interfere unless he wants help, which sometimes he does. The other moms don't usually interefere either, because the children are learning eachother's boundaries through interaction. A hairbrush does not seem like a very "dangerous" thing to bonked on the head with. Not a huge deal imho.

Perhaps the dad should have "helped" the OP's son brush her hair that would have been the proactive thing to do!
post #192 of 235
Wow.
What UAVs.

If William has injuries, I'd report it, otherwise, just be grateful you'll never see those people again.
post #193 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
A bunch of two and a half year olds need pretty constant supervision. Add a less than one year old to the mix and that only increases the need of adult "help" to make this go well.


Whatever he was having a hard time sharing should have been put away. If he is tired and not able to share something well and the other child is MUCH younger and smaller then you have to be right there. If you don't want another adult handling it (in a way that you don't agree with - which honestly I don't blame you as I don't agree with it either) then YOU need to be right there to handle it yourself. Leaving the situation to someone else means you are leaving it to them. I think both you and the dad hold responsibility in this situation.


Ok, at this point you REALLY need to be right next to him from here on out. He is sending really clear signals that he can't handle this situation without your help. And if my child hurts another child, tired or not, it is now my first responsibility to keep that from happening again. Not refilling another guest's tea is a lesser issue than a baby being hit for a second time. First time unfortunate but kids are kids. Second time is mom's fault and as the parent of the baby, I'd be really mad too.


I don't understand why you are in a different room when your two and a half year old has already hit a baby on the head with a brush. Dad is shouting because his baby is being pummelled.


Yes, a grown man should not push a two year old. But you didn't see what happened. Did he put his arm up to shield his baby from getting hit again and your ds lost his balance when he ran into it? Not knowing how big or coordinated your son is makes it hard to tell. If he was a ways away, there is no way to know if he was actually pushed or fell over and backed away when the dad got mad.


Yes, you are over reacting. You were wrong not to be there to help your son control himself. Reporting him is complete overkill IMO. I think group playdates with kids of this age requires close supervision. I'd expect apologies both directions in the situation you describe. They deserve one because you let your son hit their baby in the head with a brush not once but twice. You deserve one IF he actually pushed your ds. Next time just be there and the whole thing will be avoided.
Yes to all of this. I know you were all upset by this incident, and it was most unfortunate. However, it is *your* job to protect other children from your son who is having a hard time. His behavior is quite typical for his age, but violence is never appropriate. You are responsible for hovering and helping him learn to be gentle. You have to learn to read his cues for when he might escalate to violence and prevent it. It is not always possible to do, but the closer you are physically to him, the more chance you have of being successful.

I think the man should not have raised his voice, but it sounds as if he was pretty angry at you, not your child so much. Also, I agree that he may not have actively pushed oyur son down, but may have inadvertently caused him to fall. Either way, again, if you were present, you could have also acted as your son's protector as well as the small baby's protector.

I had a friend who for a long time was always on her phone, or chatting with other moms, or just physically out of reach, and her child frequently hurt my smaller child (and other kids). I had to raise my voice at her once (the mom) (which embarrassed both of us tremendously) to get her to take a more active role, and things did improve a little after that.

I think you can turn the situation around by taking responsibility for your rolse in the events. You can't force your friends to change or make amends, but an apology and vow to be more hands-on in the future may go a long way toward repairing the relationship.
post #194 of 235
2.5 year old hitting 1 year old = and supervision

Adult shoving 2.5 year old = and at a minimum telling all your mutual friends not to trust that adult around kids.
post #195 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
2.5 year old hitting 1 year old = and supervision

Adult shoving 2.5 year old = and at a minimum telling all your mutual friends not to trust that adult around kids.
There is no evidence that the 2.5yo was shoved. If I had a less than 1 yo and the 2.5 yo was coming over after already hitting once, I would put my hand out to stop him getting near. If he fell, he fell, I would never push. But I would use my outstretched arm to keep him away until I could stand up and pick my baby up out of harm's way.

However, the op was the hostess. The other parents should either have been helping get/clear up the tea so she could 100% supervise her child, or they should have been supervising for her, while she was providing THEIR drinks/snacks.
post #196 of 235
Op you are dealing with a lot right now, you DS is dealing with a lot, you need to step back and really decern what is going on here. Why are you upset? Is it really this incident?

But for Gods sake stop "knowing" what other people are thinking or feeling. You don't know, and your assumtions seem where a lot of your angst seems to be coming from.
You really have no clue what these other people are thinking, what intents are, etc. In this case intent is a very large factor, and you are assuming the worst... when in fact it probably wasn't there.

There is a possibility that your child is a bully.... if so YOU need to acknowledge that and deal with it appropriately, so it doesn't go further.

It may be "developmentally appopriate" for a toddler to hit. That DOES NOT make it okay! It is NEVER appropriate to be hit, and I don't know why you are minimizing your sons or your own behavior.

You did not wittness this, you do NOT KNOW what happened. Instead of flying off the handle and putting all your angst from all your other issues on this one, you need to sit back and your husband need to sit back and deal with the important things in life..... and stop trying to demonize a father for protecting his baby.
post #197 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishmommy View Post
There is no evidence that the 2.5yo was shoved.
The OP stated at least one of the other parents confirmed that the dad had pushed the child. I'm not saying that's like irrefutable evidence or anything, but it seems unlikely another parent would make that up.
post #198 of 235
Pushed and put a hand up that caused the kid to fall are two different things.
post #199 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishmommy View Post
Pushed and put a hand up that caused the kid to fall are two different things.
when i asked the other mum she said "we-eell.. yes he did push him..." she was reluctant to take sides as such but knew she couldnt lie to me. my son landed over a metre away from the sofa where the incidence took place so he didnt "just" fall back, his legs arent *that* long (and yes that is an attempt to lighten things up by joking... *sigh* even if just for myself)

oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
i only had to spin round and take two steps and i was there so there wasnt really time for any of the other mums to react.
post #200 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...
You know what though, it doesn't MATTER if the younger/older/other kid wanders off and isn't bothered so much. When you have a child doing something WRONG, you nip it in the bud right away. If the parent isn't going to do it, I am going to tell the unsupervised child that they MAY NOT hit my child/take a toy from my child/do wrong to my child. If you object to they, be a helicopter parent. My kid did hit/bite/steal toys, but at that stage, I WAS the helicopter parent, because my toddler NEEDED that direct interaction that included me being on top of him/her to be their words/logic. To help them say, 'I am using that toy, when I am done, I will give you a turn' or "when you are done with that toy, can I use it'. Toddlers just don't learn this stuff organically. I tried to do that with my oldest daughter, and you know what happened? She became the aggressor. I tried to let her 'fend for herself', and it didn't work. So, I became the helicopter parent. Now, at almost 4, 6.5 and almost 9, my kids can work things out on their own, and know when to ask for adult help in sorting things out with their peers.

It is SO SO SO frustrating to be a parent at a playgroup with toddlers where the parents are all socializing and expecting the toddlers to go at it alone. I am doing a playgroup at my local library for 1-3yo. It is HARD work. My almost 4yo gets very frustrated because the younger kids knock over what she is working on, or try to take toys from her, and her reasoning doesn't work. But yet, the parents see her as the older kid and expect her to give up her toy, or let them knock down her building, or otherwise just let the littler kids walk on her. That is NOT acceptable. They need to be there to tell their child that she is doing XYZ, they can't take it/knock it over, etc. And at the same time, my 18mo is needing assistance to make sure she isn't getting trampled or toys taken away, or pushed, or whatever. So, yes, I am totally helicopter, cause it is necessary at this age. If not, they don't learn these social graces, and turn into the bratty kids at the playground later.
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