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I am furious... what would you have done? UPDATE IN OP - Page 11

post #201 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
If your toddler is known to hit babies, then you either need to keep him away from the baby, or stay within arm's reach of him around babies. It would be great if another adult in the room can stand in for you, but they need to know that their role is to "keep ds away from the baby" or "stay within arm's reach to intercept a swing"--and be willing to do so. For some parents, it can be difficult to watch their own toddler and another toddler effectively (it was for me with my first child, anyway....it is easier now that I have two).

Of course, that is no excuse for pushing a toddler with force. The dad's anger reaction is scary to me; I'd just be glad he isn't my kids' dad
post #202 of 235
You're going through a lot now. This really does not need to be in your life. Your son wasn't hurt, right? I bet he's probably already over it. Again, the whole thing was lousy, but nothing really was all that terrible in the end and most likely, this is a culmination of a bunch of poor choices and misunderstandings. It won't be the first time you will have conflicts with other parents, feel your son has been wronged or think of ways you could have done things differently. Part of being a parent is evaluating things, taking action if needed, and then getting things back to normal as quickly as possible. It is time to do that.

Its over. You don't need to see this guy again, so don't give him more power over you by torturing yourself (and everyone else torturing themselves) with this any more. By rehashing it, getting emotional over it, wondering how to take it to the next level (which seems futile, even if he DID push him with an intent to push), etc. you are giving this guy and the incident power over you AGAIN. Take control back by seeing it for what it was, come up with a plan to not let it happen again, then let it go.

And, an aside- you can never expect or assume other adults (even parents) will parent from your angle. Expecting other parents to make it easier for your son to apologize, for them to see your child as tired and a toddler, etc. is not an assumption that will work long term. Sure, you could have some great friends and family, but the default is not expecting anyone else to take an active role in parenting and seeing things for you or your child's perspective. They have their own, which will sometimes mesh with yours, sometimes not. Expecting children to meet yours so yours can apologize might take a back seat to their own needs at that moment to be comforted or recognized for their own anger or whatever. Even great parents with perspective might not go very far out of their way to meet your parenting goals when they conflict with what is going on for them.
post #203 of 235
mommy2maya: I hear you. Playgroups ARE hard work for all involved. And I personally think it's not only OK, but a really good idea, for any adult to enforce justice with confident authority when the kids are rolling around at their feet.

But when that enforcement is not gentle and positive, when the adult goes to the place of tears and visible anger and hollering at or guilt-trippping a toddler, then what I learn from that is that the adult is not capable of dealing effectively with the situation and that I need to intervene and redirect THE ADULT. The kids are going to be fine. The adult will probably be also, because our worst days at playgroup are not (thank God) reflective of our ultimate potential as AP parents.

And yes, some parents absolutely do adopt a Lord Of The Flies mentality during toddler group play and stand around ignoring their kids, and yes, you can't just sit back and let that happen.
post #204 of 235
I don't have time to read past the first page so I'm probably repeating someone and I want to say I almost never respond to these threads that get into heated debates but this situation is incredible to me so here's my two cents ...

I take issue with anyone who is blaming your son. He is a baby. There is obviously blame here but it is not his.
Your son and what happens in your home is YOUR responsibility. You knew your son was tired and you knew he had a hitting problem. You should have canceled the playdate or been glued to him the entire time. Then after the first time your son hit, you knew your son was upset, you knew the father and baby were upset and you knew you didn't like the way the father handled the incident. How could you not supervise every single second after something like that happens in your own home with your own son? Better yet, why wouldn't you end the playdate? I'm sure everyone would have totally understood since they all have kids the same age who are still prone to getting overtired, overstimulated, etc.
If your son was actually pushed/hit with real adult force I obviously think that's not okay but that doesn't seem to be what happened here and I certainly understand the fathers anger, even if I do think he overreacted. I swear I'm not trying to be mean but I totally cannot understand your point of view here. I think looking to report the father who was the one being responsible and actually supervising the children is absolutely ludicrous. I understand you are upset right now but do you realize what it sounds like when you are talking about having someone arrested for breaking up a fight between babies? You left your overtired, upset son to be supervised by someone who just disciplined your son in a way you didn't like. What did you expect to happen? I think it's sad that your son had to deal with bad adult decisions on both ends. I think this is totally being blown out of proportion and I hope both you and this couple realize it, move on and learn something from it all.
post #205 of 235
Did you ever even ask the father what happened?

You're way way overreacting. You still make it sound like the blame is with everyone else.
post #206 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
North of 60 wrote:

"I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". People don't act like that, and do all of those things because they're a new parent."

IME, yes, some folks absolutely do act like that. People who show no signs of being crazy in their daily lives can most definitely be made to ACT crazy when they are learning how to deal with a developmental stage they've never coped with before (although, as another poster pointed, you can have six kids and get your first hitting/biting victim with toddler #7, and as you pointed out, you can rack up a lot of experience with children before you ever have one of your own and not be discomfited at all by the typical toddler stuff).

But. You can also be a typically sane and reasonable person who gets temporarily driven to distraction when you start involving your young child in group play situations for the first time. Because it's very stressful for a lot of people. With first children, it's also often to first time the baby gets hit or has somebody take something from them, and that obviously makes the situation all that much more fraught.

You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...
I think it's insulting to say that people will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, yell, cry, and act inappropriately physical" with other people's children because they're first time parents. I will maintain that no, they will not. People act like that because they don't have coping skills, or because of their upbringing, or, because they have a screw loose. NOT because they are first time parents. The list of things you rattled off that new parents are capable of are demonstrations of pretty troubling behavior that goes so far past a stressful hitting stage at a playdate.

Do parents get stressed out because of their children and get a bit neurotic? Sure. But I'd be seriously wary of ANYONE who "crazily over reacted, got angry, freaked out, yelled, cried, or acted inappropriately physical" at a play date or with anyone else's kid. And to continue saying that this is normal behavior to be expected of parents simply because they're new parents to young children is insulting! I'm not a crazy person! Nor are any of my other new-parent friends. THAT is crazy person behavior!
post #207 of 235
I'm stunned that you (the OP) think it's appropriate to have your son KISS a child he's just hurt.

I'm sorry, but there's no way I would have lowered my hurt/crying child so that your son could kiss her. That's way beyond the realm of normal.

There are other way for him to say sorry. He can use the words. He can make the sign. You can say the words for him. Before my DD was able to say "sorry" I would say the words while she made the sign.

I think it's ridiculous for you to expect the injured child to accept MORE physical contact with the kid who just hurt her. I don't blame that dad for not lowering her.

ETA: In what world is an almost 3yo a "baby"???? That's really blowing me away. I'm around alot of 2 to 4 yos and there is a definite change as they come past 2 and start to head towards 3. The baby fades and is replaced by kid. I haven't met a 3yo yet who isn't basically all kid and no baby.
post #208 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I'm stunned that you (the OP) think it's appropriate to have your son KISS a child he's just hurt.
Honestly, I'm kind of stunned that anyone would think it inappropriate, that is of course unless the child showed that she did not want any more contact. We don't know if that was the case here. If so, then of course that would not be cool. But otherwise, I don't see the problem.

Of course, I can see how someone might not feel comfortable lowing their baby even if the baby seemed okay with it (although I would), but I would think the parent in that case would at least try to acknowledge and accept the apology somehow. Seems really petty not to IMO and also sets a pretty crumby example for all the children involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
ETA: In what world is an almost 3yo a "baby"???? That's really blowing me away. I'm around alot of 2 to 4 yos and there is a definite change as they come past 2 and start to head towards 3. The baby fades and is replaced by kid. I haven't met a 3yo yet who isn't basically all kid and no baby.
Well my daughter was still nursing and in diapers at 2 1/2, so yeah, I'm going with baby.
post #209 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
when i asked the other mum she said "we-eell.. yes he did push him..." she was reluctant to take sides as such but knew she couldnt lie to me. my son landed over a metre away from the sofa where the incidence took place so he didnt "just" fall back, his legs arent *that* long (and yes that is an attempt to lighten things up by joking... *sigh* even if just for myself)

oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
i only had to spin round and take two steps and i was there so there wasnt really time for any of the other mums to react.
This reluctance seems to me to say that it wasn't this big shove that it seems you have made it in your head. Do you think your friends would have stood there and watched while he shoved your child hard? I doubt it. I suspect, like many here, that this was a gentle push to get your son off his 1 year old. You're son probably did stumble back and fall. Not alright, but not this huge drama it seems to have become for you and this other family.
post #210 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow View Post
Do you think your friends would have stood there and watched while he shoved your child hard? I doubt it.
How would they have stopped him exactly? I mean I'm guessing this happened pretty fast just like the toddler hitting the baby thing did.
post #211 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
How would they have stopped him exactly? I mean I'm guess this happened pretty fast just like the toddler hitting the baby thing did.
But would they have not spoken up- like, Hey, take it easy, WHOA, calm down, or even Wow, DS are you ok? SOMETHING, SOME reaction. From the sounds of this, the other two mothers had not much of a reaction, but to leave after the hostess went upstairs, for what seems like a long, uncomfortable time, without really saying what was going on. I am really surprised at that mostly, I mean, I understand her wanting to put her son to bed, yes. But, I guess, if it were me, I would have brought him to his bed, calmed him quickly, and told him I was going to tell the guests that we were going to have naptime now. Instead, it sounds like she just went upstairs and stayed there til they left, with no further communication with anyone.
post #212 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow View Post
This reluctance seems to me to say that it wasn't this big shove that it seems you have made it in your head. Do you think your friends would have stood there and watched while he shoved your child hard? I doubt it. I suspect, like many here, that this was a gentle push to get your son off his 1 year old. You're son probably did stumble back and fall. Not alright, but not this huge drama it seems to have become for you and this other family.
I totally agree with this. As in op asked friend did baby's daddy throw my son across the room when he tapped the baby on the head? And the friend said, yes, he pushed the boy away from the baby, and your son stumbled backwards and fell on his butt.
post #213 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
me: i dealt with that at the time and im sorry it happened but i cant glue william to me all thetime and i cant predict when he might do it. all i can do is deal with it and apologize. i couldnt quite believe she was still laying all the blame on me...

should know better than to assault a child.
she then put the phone down on me and dp took a walk to town to the police station.

im just gutted that this escalated so much, i wish thedad cold have just left me to deal with the situation in a way i deemed appropriate.
Yes, you CAN be glued to William's side when you are with other kids, especially younger ones - and that is what is REQUIRED at this stage of his development. If you can't predict when he will hit, that is even MORE reason that you MUST be right next to him at all times during playdates. What you can and should do is BE THERE to stop it before it happens NOT just apologize after another child has been hurt. The blame is being laid on you because - honestly - that is where it belongs. If your child is too young to know better or stop himself then you are responsible to do so for him.

And the baby's dad did NOT assault your kid! One, you didn't see it. Two, does the mom who did see it think you should call the police??? Three, he was trying to protect his baby from another injury. Your dp going to the police with this is absolutely bizarre and uncalled for. Given the information in this 11 page thread, I would not let my kids be around yours - not because he hits but because you and your dp can't be rational about what is "call the cops" worthy and what is normal, we can work through it kid stuff.

And you wish the dad had let you handle it... I'm sure he wishes you had handled it too - but before his baby was hit a second time. You ignored your responsibility. The baby got hit again. Your son was physically stopped from hitting the baby again and fell/lost his balance/was pushed/whatever - we don't know! But while you point the finger at this dad, why aren't you acknowledging that ALL of it would have been avoided if YOU WERE THERE? I don't care if you have an open floor plan. Known hitter=mom next to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post
My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process."
My dp and I would agree with your dp. You can start out as nice and as gentle as you want, but this kid doesn't get free reign to hit my baby in the head multiple times as long as he aplogizes and kisses her later!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
as for *how* ds hit (not making excuses, just trying to clarify) ... typically he will be playing quite calmly and then literally out of nowherehe will hit or push. just the once, kind of like waiting to see what reaction he would get iyswim. he doesnt go angry and start yelling or anything and start pummeling again and again, it is literally just one hit and then he waits...this makes it extremely difficult for anyone to intervene as its so unpredictable. WHY he does it? no idea...
If you KNOW that he hits or pushes "literally out of nowhere" then you have to SHADOW HIM like a hawk! 100% of the time - until this phase is over. I don't care if he hits or pushes while singing Jesus Loves Me - it is just as wrong whether he seems angry when he does it or not. And why he does it - we may never know. What we know is that you, as the responsible adult, must be right there all the time when other kids are around - or don't be around other kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i still havent had an apology
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i have yes, and ds wanted to too
I understand not forcing apologies that aren't genuine - but regardless of whether ds apologizes and how he does it, YOU are still required to apologize - both that your ds hit his baby but also that you weren't watching closely enough to keep it from happening. It isn't just about ds's wrong; it is about yours too. YOU owe him and his baby an apology completely separate from your son's apology. There are two wrongs (in this case three though I understand his and your son's) and equal number of apologies due.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
Seems some folks have some mighty high expectations of two year olds. And expecting more of an apology than the mom trying to facilitate one from the offending child (which was pretty much rejected by the dad in this case)? That just dumbfounds me. Does it need to be a handwritten formal apology or what?
I don't have higher expectations of an almost three year old. I DO have higher expectations of his twenty-five or thirty or forty year old mother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer View Post
Also if a toddler just hit my dd in the head then his mom brought him over to kiss her sorry I would NOT turn her face to him on the off chance he hit her again.
Me either!!! That kid has just hit her twice; I'm not making it easy for him to get her a third time... THAT seems like bad parenting to me - how would your kid trust you if you lowered her to the kid who just hit you twice?? We are now caring more about the hitter's apology not being able to be completed in the way his mom wants than the baby feeling physically safe??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
If you DO report and it IS investigated, then the moms who actually witnessed the incident will tell the story from their POV and things will proceed from there.
Yep, and I doubt anyone will ever participate in playgroup with the OP and her son ever again - it is not safe to do so! The cops being called on another parent because the OP didn't do her job of watching her known hitter? Kiss the friendships of all these playgroup moms goodbye - to be called in to testify over this completely ridiculous situation. I'd be so done with anything more than a curt "hello" as we pass in the playground parking lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ofwait View Post
OP and the update..... Wow, that is all I can say. You are creating a huge scene, your DH is creating a huge scene. Over something that you have second hand and your DH third. I hope that you realize that taking something like that to the police is going to get YOU labeled as the kooks...

This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!
This! Going to the cops with this doesn't make HIM look bad; it makes YOU look bad. Please take a deep breath and let it go. Just walk away from the whole situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
Here you have a 2.5 year old who you know is prone to hitting right now, and since you're not willing to be 100% vigilant in supervising him around other children I'm wondering what your idea of "dealing with it" is? Apologizing?

I think you owe it to the kids your son is playing with to be 100% on top of supervision, which means, yes, he will have to be glued to you at playdates. If you have to leave the room, Take him with you. Or skip the playdate if it won't be possible for you to watch him the entire time.

You seem hell bent on apologies, but have not mentioned anything about preventing it, which I think is more important.
Yes, preventing it is your #1 priority right now. Apologizing doesn't mean squat if you just let him do it over and over and over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
And on the issue of involving the police, I'm just floored that you're even considering it. As someone else mentioned, you will inevitably involve everyone at the playdate (as they'll be your witnesses since you didn't actually watch the situation unfold)

you're child is a known hitter and you're refusing to supervise him 100% the time while he's with other children. Do you not see how ugly this has the potential to be? And what a complete and utter waste of resources it is?

I think it really sucks that you guys think this is important enough to deter the police away from catching REAL bad guys. People who use the police (and CPS and such) as a tactic for personal fights are abusing the system and potentially causing harm to people who really need the police for REAL crimes.
Thank you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i deal with williams hitting, when it happens.

it doesnt help that my brother had to close the shop down that he inherited from my dad and has been in the family for over 30 years, that my scan revealed that i might not be able to have a normal birth, never mind a homebirthb and that dps step dad who is like a dad to him is dying.
please be gentle with me i feel bad enough about this situation as it is.
I am really, truly sorry that there are so many scary/sad/stressful things in your life right now. I think you are letting all THOSE things cloud your judgment in THIS situation.

And you need to deal with William's hitting BEFORE it happens. If you aren't able or willing to shadow him around other kids then don't take him around other kids until his hitting phase is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I'm stunned that you (the OP) think it's appropriate to have your son KISS a child he's just hurt.

I'm sorry, but there's no way I would have lowered my hurt/crying child so that your son could kiss her. That's way beyond the realm of normal.

There are other way for him to say sorry. He can use the words. He can make the sign. You can say the words for him. Before my DD was able to say "sorry" I would say the words while she made the sign.

I think it's ridiculous for you to expect the injured child to accept MORE physical contact with the kid who just hurt her. I don't blame that dad for not lowering her.
Me either.
post #214 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
when i asked the other mum she said "we-eell.. yes he did push him..." she was reluctant to take sides as such but knew she couldnt lie to me. my son landed over a metre away from the sofa where the incidence took place so he didnt "just" fall back, his legs arent *that* long (and yes that is an attempt to lighten things up by joking... *sigh* even if just for myself)

oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
i only had to spin round and take two steps and i was there so there wasnt really time for any of the other mums to react.
I guess what I don't understand from reading how you could have seen this all if you turned around is, if the dad really shouted at your son wouldn't you have heard it and come running? Also wouldn't you have heard this supposedly major pushing incident (i.e your son yelling as he fell or something). I guess I just am not so believing that your son was violently pushed as your are describing it.

Also it sounds like you asked "did he push my LO??" to which the guest reluctantly replied yes, is that right? I feel badly that your son fell but really I feel like you are trying to make it sound as though this dad literally shoved him away and it just doesn't add up from all that I've read.
post #215 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
Honestly, I'm kind of stunned that anyone would think it inappropriate, that is of course unless the child showed that she did not want any more contact. We don't know if that was the case here. If so, then of course that would not be cool. But otherwise, I don't see the problem.
Where I come from a kiss is something that's friendly and done between 2 consensual parties.

If 2 toddlers kiss each other, then that's fine.

I think that using a kiss instead of an actual apology is ridiculous. I think it also teaches inappropriate boundaries.
post #216 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
Where I come from a kiss is something that's friendly and done between 2 consensual parties.

If 2 toddlers kiss each other, then that's fine.

I think that using a kiss instead of an actual apology is ridiculous. I think it also teaches inappropriate boundaries.
I guess I'm not assuming this was unfriendly or nonconsensual. If it was, then yeah, that would be some serious boundary crossing.

But the OP never said anything about the baby still crying or being afraid or anything (although it's along thread so who knows). And if this baby is anything like my two kids at that age, then once she had stopped crying and calmed down (and remember the OP had taken her child upstairs so some time had passed here) she had likely forgotten about the incident and was ready to move on. IME, babies don't hold grudges.

As far as a kiss being ridiculous, I think that's coming from an adult perspective. This kid is 2 and I'm guessing was just doing what came naturally.

Should mom maybe try to work with him on something a bit less touchy? Perhaps. But you are making what he did sound sort of perverse and aggressive which I just don't understand.
post #217 of 235
I see kisses as invasive and involve the other person getting in my personal space. I have a DD who has never liked people coming into her personal space uninvited.

It bug me to no end when other kids want to give her a hug or a kiss because she then pushes them away from her and I get dirty looks from the other parent.

I think it would be much better if the OP said "Jonny would like to kiss her head better. Is that OK". And then the dad could have said no. And then the OP could have used her words to apologize and shown her son what he should have done.

I don't think kisses are an appropriate substitution for an apology.
post #218 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
Honestly, I'm kind of stunned that anyone would think it inappropriate, that is of course unless the child showed that she did not want any more contact. We don't know if that was the case here. If so, then of course that would not be cool. But otherwise, I don't see the problem.

Of course, I can see how someone might not feel comfortable lowing their baby even if the baby seemed okay with it (although I would), but I would think the parent in that case would at least try to acknowledge and accept the apology somehow. Seems really petty not to IMO and also sets a pretty crumby example for all the children involved.
I wouldn't let a child who just hurt my child hug her or kiss her. I don't want her thinking it is okay for someone to hurt her just as long as they hug or kiss her afterwards.

OP: I think you are blowing things out of proportion. I doubt that many people would just sit there while someone shoved a child roughly. It sounds like you are having trouble accepting your son's part of the blame in this and in his over all pattern of violence that has driven this mother to stop letting her children come into contact with yours. That denial is going to make your son believe his violence is okay and it is going to make the violence occur more frequently until you accept that you need to find a way to gently prevent or stop your son's violence rather than trying to find ways to excuse it.
post #219 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post
I wouldn't let a child who just hurt my child hug her or kiss her. I don't want her thinking it is okay for someone to hurt her just as long as they hug or kiss her afterwards.
I guess I just want to teach my child to accept genuine apologies, practice forgiveness, and not hold grudges. If a child who hurt my child seemed genuinely sorry and wanted to offer a hug and/or kiss and my child seemed open to that, I would see no reason to prevent it. Again, I am talking about consensual actions here.

And I think this is getting way OT here, so that's all I have to say about that .
post #220 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
ETA: In what world is an almost 3yo a "baby"???? That's really blowing me away. I'm around alot of 2 to 4 yos and there is a definite change as they come past 2 and start to head towards 3. The baby fades and is replaced by kid. I haven't met a 3yo yet who isn't basically all kid and no baby.
DS2 is 4.25. People who don't know him often guess his age at 2, even though he's quite big. He both looks and acts quite a lot younger than he is. I personally wouldn't call him a baby, because I generally reserve that term for very young children (pre-walking, mostly)...but many people would.
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