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I am furious... what would you have done? UPDATE IN OP - Page 5

post #81 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawberryFields View Post
Well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this WWYD situation, I would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second.
: At least that's how I've seen other mamas handle it when Lina was the baby.

Wait, 3 adults? What on earth was the other mom doing?
post #82 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post
The OP hosted a playdate. There were three other adults in the room with the children, and not ONE of them would keep an eye on her kid while she played hostess? Really?
While I think the other adults should've been more proactive, there is no "hostessing" when you've got a group of kids from 18months-3years. Especially not with a younger baby and a kid in the "mine!" *whack* phase.
post #83 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
While I think the other adults should've been more proactive, there is no "hostessing" when you've got a group of kids from 18months-3years. Especially not with a younger baby and a kid in the "mine!" *whack* phase.
Really? Everyone at playgroups nowadays brings their own drinks and never uses the bathroom? Wow.

A small group of children should not be that difficult to keep an eye on when there are four adults nearby. Somehow, home-daycare providers manage to keep things orderly.

Of course, toddlers hit and will be hit by others. I understand being upset when your baby gets hit, but really....the level of outrage I'm perceiving from this thread just astounds me. It's not as though someone lost a limb or had an eye poked out.
post #84 of 235
The first thing that popped in my head was the dad either sticking and arm out to block the toddler or pushed him back slowly. By slowly I mean he had his hand on the child the entire time. I've separated a toddler and my son by putting my hand on the toddlers chest and pushing/leading him back trying to create space between them. Not a forceful push but more of a "this is the direction you're going now" push. I don't know if that's clear or not but I could totally see a tired toddler falling down if he's trying to go one way and an adult is leading him the opposite direction.

As the other mom how hard of a push it was, ask the dad or leave it
post #85 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post
That's kind of harsh. And I keep seeing these posts about the op's son "beating" and "pummeling" this baby. Where are you all getting that?
A baby (OP said "younger than one") was hit TWICE on the head with a hairbrush by a child almost three times her age. That is where we are getting that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbieB View Post
perhaps it would have been wise for her to stop and join in the issue, but I am betting that since this was a playgroup among friends there is a certain comfort level here.
Perhaps it would have been wise for her to stop doing dishes and watch her child who had already once hit a baby... I definitely agree. But whether we are talking about children of my siblings, my lifelong childhood friends or complete strangers, I have NO comfort level with regards to a BABY being HIT WITH A HAIRBRUSH - repeatedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbieB
the fact is he reacted to it by pushing a toddler hard enough to make him hurt and cry.
That is NOT the "fact" of it; the OP wasn't even in the room and she is the one reporting this information. She is emotional about her child, and she is interpreting what the other moms said - moms who I assume are her friends and are siding with her. She is on the defensive as her child hurt a baby, and her husband is in "let's call the police" mode. We have one side of the story.

We do NOT know he pushed her child. We do know that her child hit his baby for the second time and he responded by removing them from each other. Did the OP's son get knocked over, fall over, lose his balance, run as dad put his arm up to protect his dd? Push him AWAY from baby is not the same as push him DOWN. And the OP's son could easily have been crying because he was afraid of the dad's anger (which is understandable given the situation - though of course he could have handled it better) and not because he was actually hurt and/or pushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cattmom View Post
I'm not sure you need to worry about inviting him back. If I were the Dad in this situation, I'd be thinking that your son was kind of a menace to littler kids right now, and that you were pretty indifferent to that. So why would I come by again?
Exactly. I'm pretty sure there is no need to ban this dad from your house; I'd be shocked if he came back.
post #86 of 235
Honestly, I would not want him around because it sounds like the father, instead of looking at this from a point of developmental age and how he can handle it in a positive manner, got angry at your child. Of course we get upset when other children hurt our children, and we want teach our children how to treat each other, but it sounds like the father was seeing it from a more adult view of motivation and effect. Not that your son might not have fallen down if the father tried to separate the children, but some people don't have the ability to feel the same compassion and understanding for other people's children as they do for their own and they may not take the same care. It's hard to feel that way, it's probably normal, but still, it would concern me.

My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.
post #87 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
"Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming?"

Why on earth are these the only two choices?

From my years of toddler playdates, I've gleaned the following wisdom:

1. When the hostess is doing hostess duty, you keep an eye on her kid.
2. When a mama is nursing her baby, you keep an eye on her older kid.
3. The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. It's a first time parent with a younger toddler who is still in permanent-crisis mode and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems like hitting. Instead of, you know, taking away the hairbrush, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.
Yes. Exactly. It's called age-appropriate behaviour. Thankyou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.
So a child is lying on his back, screaming with "that cry", there's an out of control adult here and nobody's been hurt. : Riiiiight. Not spanking=/= not hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post
Honestly, I would not want him around because it sounds like the father, instead of looking at this from a point of developmental age and how he can handle it in a positive manner, got angry at your child. Of course we get upset when other children hurt our children, and we want teach our children how to treat each other, but it sounds like the father was seeing it from a more adult view of motivation and effect. Not that your son might not have fallen down if the father tried to separate the children, but some people don't have the ability to feel the same compassion and understanding for other people's children as they do for their own and they may not take the same care. It's hard to feel that way, it's probably normal, but still, it would concern me.

My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.
Yup. Exactly. The 2yo is being treated as if he has adult motivation, understanding and verbal facilities. He's 2; therefore almost certainly doesn't. I'm pretty sure that your DH's thinking is what was going through this chap's head at the time.
post #88 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. It's a first time parent with a younger toddler who is still in permanent-crisis mode and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems like hitting. Instead of, you know, taking away the hairbrush, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.
I think it's a little ridiculous to stereotype first time parents as being untrustworthy simply because they lack the experience of parents who have more/older children. I think it has more to do with common sense than it does experience.

And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young. I mean, seriously? People who act like that don't do so out of inexperience. I'd venture to guess it has a lot more to do with social skills, their upbringing, common sense, a lack of problem solving skills, or, you know, just a general anger problem.

I have one child who is 3.5 and I can assure you that my "inexperience" has yet to result in me crazily over reacting, crying, yelling, getting angry, freaking out, or becoming inappropriately physical with someone else's child. Your post is insulting.
post #89 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
I think it's a little ridiculous to stereotype first time parents as being untrustworthy simply because they lack the experience of parents who have more/older children. I think it has more to do with common sense than it does experience.

And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young. I mean, seriously? People who act like that don't do so out of inexperience. I'd venture to guess it has a lot more to do with social skills, their upbringing, common sense, a lack of problem solving skills, or, you know, just a general anger problem.

I have one child who is 3.5 and I can assure you that my "inexperience" has yet to result in me crazily over reacting, crying, yelling, getting angry, freaking out, or becoming inappropriately physical with someone else's child. Your post is insulting.
hes not a first time dad, his older daughter is the same age as william. the baby is a big 11month old and i adore her. of course it was wrong of ds to hit her but at least he, unlike the dad, was willing to apologize.

as for *how* ds hit (not making excuses, just trying to clarify) ... typically he will be playing quite calmly and then literally out of nowherehe will hit or push. just the once, kind of like waiting to see what reaction he would get iyswim. he doesnt go angry and start yelling or anything and start pummeling again and again, it is literally just one hit and then he waits...this makes it extremely difficult for anyone to intervene as its so unpredictable. WHY he does it? no idea... i am thinking there are a few issues atm... he is at the same stage, where it comes to speech development as what the girls were about a year ago when they were going through the hitting/scratching stage. whether that is linked? i dont know, but it could be? iam also 4 1/2months pregnant and although ds still nurses 2 or 3 times daily he isnt getting any milk anymore, justa few drops of colostrum... i dont know whether this is frustrating him... he hasnt got the verbal skills to communicate his feelings on that.
post #90 of 235
Yup, it's developmental, and borne from frustration.

Having read the OP, my love, you have no choice but to become a hoverer for a few weeks or months. Stay on top of him at all times ready to intervene, and either don't host playgroups or get someone else to make the tea. Otherwise the two of you are going to get "that" reputation, him for hitting and you for not caring. If it's a one-off bad day, that seems fair enough, but if he's making a habit of it then he does need you to be within arms reach and watching all the time And no, I don't think breastmilk is relevant. It's a normal developmental phase, most kids go through it- some hit more than others.

There are other things you could try as well. Try getting him in contact with other families with bigger kids, particularly boys. I've found that my younger two are less likely to hit than my big two were because they can copy their brohters problem resolution strategies, and in particular are better at walking away from lose-lose situations- and small boys, IME, like big boys. Also, if it's a girl-heavy group, this may be the time that you need to move away and find more little boys for him to play with. One of the reasons he's been judged so harshly is probably because of his gender, unfair though that is.
post #91 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
hes not a first time dad, his older daughter is the same age as william. the baby is a big 11month old and i adore her. of course it was wrong of ds to hit her but at least he, unlike the dad, was willing to apologize.
I think the Smithie's point was to illustrate that when toddlers get together there's a certain element of age appropriate behavior, and that sometimes parents don't deal with things like hitting in a very constructive way. And that perhaps your friend's husband, or any of the adults actually, including you, were more likely to "blame" than your 2.5 year old because the obvious solution was to take away the hitting object from a child who was showing an interesting in using it to hit, or just being on top of him after the first hit to intervene in case it happened again.

However, her diatribe about parents of young children lacking experience being the main reason they "crazily over react, get angry, yell, cry, and act inappropriately physical with other people's children" is total BS. People don't act that way because they're inexperienced parents. They act that way because they have a screw loose.

Perhaps she was being sarcastic and overly dramatic to make a point, but I generally abhor the concept that new parents/parents of young children are inferior to parents of older multiple children as a matter of default. She basically said to keep an eye on new parents of young children because they can't be trusted to parent their kids and might go crazy, yell, and act inappropriately physical with other people's children, which is absolutely ridiculous. That's pretty insulting as the parent of an only 3.5 year old.

When I go to the park or on play dates I don't hone in on who has the least parenting experience and youngest kid because they're untrustworthy and might yell, cry, get angry, crazily over react or become inappropriately physical. What a completely judgmental and bizarre thing to say.
post #92 of 235
Having read your update, this sounds like a family you're better off not having at playgroups. She was crying because a 2.5 year old hit her 2.5 year old??? (It sounds like you handled that incident perfectly, BTW.) Parenthood is gonna be really tough for them, I think!

Enjoy your other friends and know that this stage for your son will pass. It did for my DD at about 2 3/4.
post #93 of 235
I believe all parties involved her are 'to blame' for what went wrong and may have done things differently before AND after the incident and even just have had a different approach from the beginning. To take it as far as reporting for abuse, is ridiculous imo (sorry if you do not agree with that) and to have the whole issue escalate like that over small kids who are in certain phases and have (age appropriate) difficulty with sharing and impulses and are not aware yet of what hurting someone else really means nor what apologies or acknowledgement of others' feelings really mean and then adults not being able to deal with it in an adult way. A lot has been said now and I'm afraid the friendship is already spoiled . But there may be a tiny chance all parties involved may come to their senses and apologise for the way things went (wrong) and promise to deal with it better in the future. End of story. None seemed to feel validated here. There was a huge communication dysfunction. Noone else dared to step in to try to help solve the issue, which is sad in itself, too.
It was ONE incident and I do not think you had serious problems between you as parents or between the children, only toddler behaviour to worry about.

Seriously, I once had my BIL slap my 5yo in the face because my 5yo had suddenly attacked him in the crotch. And, how much he was sorry for his reflex reaction, and he immediately confessed and apologised to ds and to me and dh, (and my ds, tbh, was not even very upset, luckily), I could understand HOW it happened. Would wish it hadn't, but it did. But then we explained my son what happened here too, and I told my BIL that of course I was not happy about his reaction, but that I could understand, since if ANYONE, I mean ANYONE would go for my own private parts and took me by surprise like that , I would most likely have a similar reflex reaction. We then dealt with it as adults and forgot about it. Ds included. Now you may all flame my BIL but I won't, nor does ds or dh or my sister for the matter.
post #94 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernalala View Post
I believe all parties involved her are 'to blame' for what went wrong and may have done things differently before AND after the incident and even just have had a different approach from the beginning. To take it as far as reporting for abuse, is ridiculous imo (sorry if you do not agree with that) and to have the whole issue escalate like that over small kids who are in certain phases and have (age appropriate) difficulty with sharing and impulses and are not aware yet of what hurting someone else really means nor what apologies or acknowledgement of others' feelings really mean and then adults not being able to deal with it in an adult way. A lot has been said now and I'm afraid the friendship is already spoiled . But there may be a tiny chance all parties involved may come to their senses and apologise for the way things went (wrong) and promise to deal with it better in the future. End of story. None seemed to feel validated here. There was a huge communication dysfunction. Noone else dared to step in to try to help solve the issue, which is sad in itself, too.
It was ONE incident and I do not think you had serious problems between you as parents or between the children, only toddler behaviour to worry about.

Seriously, I once had my BIL slap my 5yo in the face because my 5yo had suddenly attacked him in the crotch. And, how much he was sorry for his reflex reaction, and he immediately confessed and apologised to ds and to me and dh, (and my ds, tbh, was not even very upset, luckily), I could understand HOW it happened. Would wish it hadn't, but it did. But then we explained my son what happened here too, and I told my BIL that of course I was not happy about his reaction, but that I could understand, since if ANYONE, I mean ANYONE would go for my own private parts and took me by surprise like that , I would most likely have a similar reflex reaction. We then dealt with it as adults and forgot about it. Ds included. Now you may all flame my BIL but I won't, nor does ds or dh or my sister for the matter.
i still havent had an apology
post #95 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i still havent had an apology
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.
post #96 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.
That's what I meant. One of the parties here should start acting like the adult and do an attempt to apologise for how things went. Whom this is, doesn't really matter. It's about the first step being important to solve the issue, the sooner the better. If you do want to resolve this without a worse fight, please take away your pride and anger and talk to them don't wait until they will. If you all start to be reasonable again you CAN work this out without loosing your calm. Try to understand each other's standpoint more. Being stubborn may only get matters worse (with the pending complaint MUCH MUCH worse).
post #97 of 235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.
i have yes, and ds wanted to too
post #98 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by petra_william View Post
i have yes, and ds wanted to too
I know you tried right after the incident but things were obviously too heated still for the father to even be listening apparently. I mean have you tried again now that things have calmed down. I do think he owes you and your son an apology but I also think that if he isn't going to do it you should open that door by apologizing yourself. Then again I suck at apologies so I can't judge anyone for that!
post #99 of 235
Seems some folks have some mighty high expectations of two year olds. I can't imagine never returning to a playgroup because my one year old got hit by a two year old even if the mom was in the kitchen or wherever. And expecting more of an apology than the mom trying to facilitate one from the offending child (which was pretty much rejected by the dad in this case)? That just dumbfounds me. Does it need to be a handwritten formal apology or what? Just wondering in case I'm ever in the OPs situation. My son is pretty feisty, so I'm imagining this could be an issue for us later on. My daughter thankfully never went through a hitting phase...well until recently, but at least it's just her brother .
post #100 of 235
I think that you are being a little unreasonable in the strength of your reaction about this. He obviously didnt push your son that hard, he is a largish fully grown man if he had intentionally pushed your son he would have been doing alot more than crying - he would have been seriously hurt. He probably just pushed him enough to stop him hitting his little girl again. Perhaps it was enough to make your son fall back but I doubt it was intentionally meant to do that.

I am not an inexperienced parent (I have three) but if a nearly 3 year old hit my baby on the head with a hair brush (even a toddler can hit hard enough to harm a baby this age) I would also stop them and if a child is raising his hand to hit your baby you dont stop and take time to think about the pros and cons of different techniques to stop them you do whatever you need to stop that hairbrush falling on your childs head!.

You need to be right next to your child when he is playing near a baby and he certainly should not be allowed to play with things like hair brushes near a young baby. If he cant be trusted with things he shouldnt have them. He will soon learn to play nicely when he is limited only to soft toys. Trust me I have an ex hitter

forgot to add i think both parties need to get over this and move on with life!

sophie
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