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Question for Anglicans

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I am Catholic and I recently learned that Pope Benedict is going to create a way for Anglicans seeking to remain traditional to enter the Catholic Church. He would allow Anglican priests and bishops to become Catholic, but still keep their traditions. Basically, it sounds like he is going to create an Anglican Rite in the Catholic Church.

I was wondering what Anglican lay people think about this. As a traditional Catholic, I think it's awesome!

Here is a link to the story in case you hadn't heard about it:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/0904673.htm
post #2 of 21
This actually is nothing terribly new...

http://www.pastoralprovision.org/

There has been a Pastoral Provision in the US since 1980 - both for married Episcopalian/Anglican priests to be ordained Catholic priests, as well as for Anglican-use Catholic parishes. There are 5-10 Anglican-use Catholic parishes in the US. I think one of the MDC mamas belongs to one.
post #3 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
This actually is nothing terribly new...

http://www.pastoralprovision.org/

There has been a Pastoral Provision in the US since 1980 - both for married Episcopalian/Anglican priests to be ordained Catholic priests, as well as for Anglican-use Catholic parishes. There are 5-10 Anglican-use Catholic parishes in the US. I think one of the MDC mamas belongs to one.
I do! And I think one or two others might... but not entirely sure.
My understand of this is that now there will be a "diocese" for just the Anglican converts. Pastoral Provision allows for a personal parish within a regular diocese, but only if the Bishop allows it. The new Personal Ordinariate will pretty much create an "Anglican-Use" "diocese" that will have it's own hierarchy, and perhaps even seminaries (!!!!!).
The Atonement Online Blog and Standing on My Head are giving wonderful coverage to this movement home!
post #4 of 21
I'm surprised that permitting married priests doesn't give any of the conservative Catholics pause....I've read only whoohoo kinds of responses here on MDC.
post #5 of 21
Well, it is new, because it is essentially creating an Anglican Catholic Church, just like the Eastern Catholic Churches. It has more permanence, it has measures for the training and formation of Anglican Rite priests (which was missing before) a structure for the Anglican Rite to be administered, and I think more to the point it acknowledges Anglicanism as a meaningful and real spiritual tradition, as having a truly catholic character. In the past, Anglicans moving to Rome have mostly got the impression they need to leave their whole spiritual tradition behind as if it is meaningless, or at most can use it for a time as a provision to their human weakness.

I think it will appeal to some. Apparently it has been set up in response to numerous requests from Anglican groups to the Holy See. I have recently heard of a number of monastic groups wholly going over to Rome, and I think this will be especially nice for those groups. It seems to me it will not so much appeal to conservative Anglicans outside of the West, who are the majority in those places.

Now, many Anglicans, while having troubles with the direction of the Anglican Church, still feel that Rome has long misunderstood the nature of its own authority. Most of those people will be hesitant, though they may consider it as a last ditch option. OTOH, many Anglicans have come to the conclusion that their own system has failed - scripture,reason and tradition. They have nevber been quite as strickt about the meaning of tradition as much of the East, and they don't have the central authority of the Roman West. But they did have the Book of Common Prayer, which functioned as the lens or screen of what was Anglican, and tied Anglicans together, for many years. But having seen it essentially destroyed in the last 30 years has shaken people's faith. Some have come to the conclusion that if that can happen, there needs to be some other fail-safe against apostasy. Those are the people that may be very interested in this new Anglican Rite. It seems to me there are more in England than in the US - I am not sure about here in Canada.

It will be interesting what affect this will have on the Anglican Communion. It could further accent the rift between the West and the rest of the world, and leave the Archbishop of Canturbury in a difficult position.

Other questions I have had are what liturgy will be used. I have heard two versions - one that it will be based on the old prayer book or sarum use, the other that it will be based on the new American BCP. I hope the latter isn't the case, and it seems odd to me it would be given that the CC seems to be moving away from the NO to some extent, and the two were based on the same liturgical fads. Also, how widespread are these parishes going to be? Will they only exist where whole parishes want to make the switch? If so, they will be limited numbers I think, since many parishes have a small number who might be interested but by no means the whole parish.

I also wonder what kind of legal wranglings over buildings may follow.

FWIW, I have heard a number of Catholics worried that it will have a bad effect on Latin priests celibacy. Personally, I think if it raises questions, there is no reason the Latins should be afraid of seriously reconsidering the question, whatever decision they came to it might be a fruitful discussion.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
Allowing clergy from one faith to remain married when becoming a priest is not new. This may create a rather large influx of married Anglican clergy becoming priests, but it does not change anything regarding the celibacy of Catholic priests. If an unmarried Anglican priest becomes a Catholic priest, he cannot marry.
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by cagnew View Post
Allowing clergy from one faith to remain married when becoming a priest is not new. This may create a rather large influx of married Anglican clergy becoming priests, but it does not change anything regarding the celibacy of Catholic priests. If an unmarried Anglican priest becomes a Catholic priest, he cannot marry.
Yes, it will be the same as in the Eastern Catholic Churches - and incidentally the same as in the Orthodox Church. A married man may become a priest, but once ordained an unmarried man cannot marry. Bishops cannot be married.

I think the worry is this though. There are not really huge numbers of Eastern Catholic churches in the West, and to some extent they have actually been discouraged from having married clergy in North America. Many Latin Catholics are not aware that there are Catholics who regularly and legitimately have married priests. Since many are already doubtful of the necessity of a totally celibate priesthood, some fear that this may really open the floodgates of discontent if it is widely seen to work well. A few even think that the Anglican rite could somehow begin to "steal" ordination candidates from the Latin rite.
post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
Yes, it will be the same as in the Eastern Catholic Churches - and incidentally the same as in the Orthodox Church. A married man may become a priest, but once ordained an unmarried man cannot marry. Bishops cannot be married.

I think the worry is this though. There are not really huge numbers of Eastern Catholic churches in the West, and to some extent they have actually been discouraged from having married clergy in North America. Many Latin Catholics are not aware that there are Catholics who regularly and legitimately have married priests.
I am one of them. I guess I don't see the issue with having a married priest. He does not seem to function any differently than the celibate priests I have had.

Quote:
Since many are already doubtful of the necessity of a totally celibate priesthood, some fear that this may really open the floodgates of discontent if it is widely seen to work well. A few even think that the Anglican rite could somehow begin to "steal" ordination candidates from the Latin rite.
There will always be those who are called to a single celibate life. I don't think the Anglican Rite could take away something that will always be.
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post
I am one of them. I guess I don't see the issue with having a married priest. He does not seem to function any differently than the celibate priests I have had.


There will always be those who are called to a single celibate life. I don't think the Anglican Rite could take away something that will always be.
I don't think it will be a big deal really either. But it does rather make one think - if some people are called to the priesthood but not celibacy, is the Latin Church missing out by requiring celibacy? Since the current and last Popes were both quite adamant that the Latin priesthood should remain celibate, it seems likely they think that anyone called to the Priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church must also be called to celibacy.
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
I don't think it will be a big deal really either. But it does rather make one think - if some people are called to the priesthood but not celibacy, is the Latin Church missing out by requiring celibacy? Since the current and last Popes were both quite adamant that the Latin priesthood should remain celibate, it seems likely they think that anyone called to the Priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church must also be called to celibacy.
*shrug* It is an issue I struggle to understand. But I accept the Church's stance on the matter.
And the Holy Spirit works in strange ways, so who knows where all of this will go?
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
Part of the reason Roman Catholic priests cannot marry is because, technically, they are already married- to the Church. It's hard for people to understand celibacy because sex is thought of differently today. The thought of there being anything good or holy about abstaining from married sex sounds silly. However, virginity has always been held in high esteem in the Church. To remain celibate, one has to master their flesh and live totally for God. They have to remain obedient to the Church, and obedience is another one of those things people struggle to understand today.

Reading the lives of the saints helps to put it in perspective and makes it easier to understand why the Church requires celibacy and obedience. Not that anyone is agonizing over this issue, but if it really bugs you, try reading "The Forty Dreams of Saint John Bosco" (an excellent, easy-to-read book that actually changed my life a little bit) or a good biography of St. John Vianney. This is the year of the priest, so reading about John Vianney (the patron of parish priests) is an good way to understand the holiness of the priesthood.
post #12 of 21
So if the Anglican priest are already married when they convert, are they cheating on their wives?
post #13 of 21
No, although if you like the "married to God" argument that is how it sounds.

Required celibacy is a feature of the Latin Catholic Church, and hasn't always existed there either. It isn't found in the early Church, in the Orthodox Church, or in the Eastern Catholic Churches, which are part of the Catholic Church and under the Pope.

Historically and in the groups mentioned above, a married man may become a deacon or priest, but not a Bishop. An unmarried man who is ordained may not marry. A widowed priest or deacon may not remarry. The celibacy thing is an innovation.
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
Yes, it will be the same as in the Eastern Catholic Churches - and incidentally the same as in the Orthodox Church. A married man may become a priest, but once ordained an unmarried man cannot marry. Bishops cannot be married.

I think the worry is this though. There are not really huge numbers of Eastern Catholic churches in the West, and to some extent they have actually been discouraged from having married clergy in North America. Many Latin Catholics are not aware that there are Catholics who regularly and legitimately have married priests. Since many are already doubtful of the necessity of a totally celibate priesthood, some fear that this may really open the floodgates of discontent if it is widely seen to work well. A few even think that the Anglican rite could somehow begin to "steal" ordination candidates from the Latin rite.

Actually, from what I've read, I was under a different impression. I thought it said that Anglican priests who are already married when they make the decision to convert can become Catholic priests, but if a layman wants to become an Anglican Catholic priest he would have to be unmarried. No?

And either way I don't see any reason conservative Catholics would be upset by that...
post #15 of 21
I'm a conservative Catholic who fully supports the celibate priesthood, and married Anglicans converting and becoming priests doesn't upset me. I personally would not chose to be a member of a parish with a married priest, but the only thing that would upset me woud be if the Church completely did away with celibacy, which I don't see happening anytime soon.
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by xekomaya View Post
Actually, from what I've read, I was under a different impression. I thought it said that Anglican priests who are already married when they make the decision to convert can become Catholic priests, but if a layman wants to become an Anglican Catholic priest he would have to be unmarried. No?

And either way I don't see any reason conservative Catholics would be upset by that...
This has been the practice in the past. There seem to be mixed messages about what will happen with this new arrangement, and so far there hasn't been a final official word, at least as of a few days ago. I suspect that making the priesthood of Anglican Catholics celibate would really reduce the number of Anglicans that are interested.
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I'm a conservative Catholic who fully supports the celibate priesthood, and married Anglicans converting and becoming priests doesn't upset me. I personally would not chose to be a member of a parish with a married priest, but the only thing that would upset me woud be if the Church completely did away with celibacy, which I don't see happening anytime soon.
It's so interesting to me because my memory from before Vatican II was that you coud *attend* any Catholic church for Mass, but we were assigned to a parish church based on where we lived, just like they do with school districts.

I think you could request the diocese allow you to transfer, but they didn't have to.

The whole idea of church shopping among Catholics seems pretty new.
post #18 of 21
Honestly I'm not sure who exactly this offer is supposed to appeal to. The Anglicans who are opposed to female and gay leadership are almost entirely in the Evangelical wing of the church and would never consider joining the Roman Catholic Church. Those outside the Anglican Communion often assume that there is a link between Catholic-like liturgy and conservative social practice, but (at least in the UK, Australia, and North America) most of the Catholic-looking parishes are socially liberal, and the Free Church-looking parishes are socially conservative. So the folks most upset about the liberal turn of the Episcopal Church are also those least likely to join the Roman Catholic Church.
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watershippy View Post
Honestly I'm not sure who exactly this offer is supposed to appeal to. The Anglicans who are opposed to female and gay leadership are almost entirely in the Evangelical wing of the church and would never consider joining the Roman Catholic Church. Those outside the Anglican Communion often assume that there is a link between Catholic-like liturgy and conservative social practice, but (at least in the UK, Australia, and North America) most of the Catholic-looking parishes are socially liberal, and the Free Church-looking parishes are socially conservative. So the folks most upset about the liberal turn of the Episcopal Church are also those least likely to join the Roman Catholic Church.
It was largely in response to a specific group of Anglo-Catholics who had made application/request for an arrangement of this kind.
post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 
I think the Anglican rite would be traditional. I read that somewhere... can't remember where. Yes, most Catholic parishes are pretty liberal/progressive, but there is a resurgence of traditionalism going on, and I think the Pope means for this to add to that. I'll try to find the link if I get a chance....
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