Lack of number recognition at 6.5 yrs

[scheelimama]

Yes, it's me again, I know I've gone over this same subject before, but all I've wanted to do today is cry. My dear sweet 6.5 yr old dd just cannot master her numbers. She's in the beginning stages of reading, she recognizes most of her letters. She mixes them up sometimes and has a few that trip her up consistently, but most of the time, she is able to recognize her letters and is doing well with simple cvc words and early readers. Still in the sounding out/blending stage, but she's getting there.

But numbers...I feel like we've hardly made any progress in the last year. I've done every thing that I can think of to help her with it. When I say she has no number recognition, I mean, she can't look at a number and "read" it and tell you what it is. If I tell her that it's a "7", she can count out 7 items for me. She can do some simple mental math easily. She just can't recognize the actual digits. She knows 0,1,2,5 and most of the time 6. She flips 3 and 4 often, has trouble keeping those two apart. And 7, 8, 9, 10 she mixes up. Above that, she's completely lost. We've nearly finished the MUS primer, using cheat sheets as needed, as was recommended to me. I do think she's gained some math concepts, but I was hoping with all the repetition and the colored blocks (and she colors them in in the workbook with the right color too) the numbers would start to sink in. They haven't. And now since we've introduced skip counting, she can't even come up with the number 11 when she counts aloud by 1's. She wants to go to 12 or 15 or 20 after she gets to 10. 11 is completely lost on her now.

This is a simple skill that most children have by kindergarten, and definitely by the end of K. I know there's a problem here, perhaps dyscalculia. We took her for a full developmental evaluation. She was diagnosed with ADHD, sensory processing problems, and a "decoding" problem, possible visual and auditory processing problems. IMO, the ADHD and sensory stuff is not a problem. That's who she is, it's not extreme, actually rather mild and is just part of her personality. But...the dev. ped. gave us the most ideas for working with her in regards to that stuff. The whole reason I took her was because of the lack of number recognition (and she still regularly mixes up her colors - color blindness has been ruled out). No help there, besides a suggestion to get some magnetic numbers and let her play with them on a metal cookie tray.

I'm just so frustrated and could use some hugs, btdt, and suggestions on anything I might be missing. We literally have tried everything, all the sensory, tactile ways of doing numbers, stories/drawing/art, flashcards/drill, much repetition with lots of worksheets, now MUS.

Help!

[Leav97]

[mamakay]

Wow. It soes sound like you've tried everything. That sounds so tough.

The only thing I can think of is going back to flashcards, and sticking with numbers 1-5. Do it 5 minutes a day. And then for another 5 minutes a day have her practice writing 2 numbers (between one and 5).
Do it for however long it takes.

Maybe get her to make those numbers out of play doh, too? And other artsy-craftsy number writing projects?

[scheelimama]

I should add too that I *think* she might have a mental number line in her head, because if I take away the cheats and force her to come up with the number, I see her thinking and counting, as if she's seeing the number line in her head and counting until she gets to the right number. Make sense? But individually, she can't "see" the numbers.

[LucyRev]

Have you read much about right brained kids? Some of that might help. In your shoes, I might focus more on her strengths. Keep going with the mental math since her understanding is good there. Maybe you can write out the numbers on a white board along with whatever equations you are talking about. Make a number line and stick it on the wall. Sandpaper numbers. I'm just throwing out random ideas. Does your daughter like to draw? Mine does and loved transforming numbers into animals or other artwork. So she would turn a 5 into a dog and put 5 toes on it or something similar. I think it helped her remember. That activity was actually her idea.

My DD is the same age and did great with mental math (basic addition and subtraction) for a long time. Now that we're putting more of it on paper, she is totally backsliding. She can read the numbers, but it seems like she had a firmer grasp on the value of the numbers in her mind before the numeral symbols were thrown in the mix.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by scheelimama

I should add too that I *think* she might have a mental number line in her head, because if I take away the cheats and force her to come up with the number, I see her thinking and counting, as if she's seeing the number line in her head and counting until she gets to the right number. Make sense? But individually, she can't "see" the numbers.

So she's good with the sounds, just not the visual symbols?

[scheelimama]

Originally Posted by mamakay

So she's good with the sounds, just not the visual symbols?

Yes, she can say the numbers up to 10 (like I said, she's tripping up after that since we introduced skip counting), so if she has a number line to look at, she can easily find the number. But when it comes to double digit numbers, she's not grasping the concept at all, that they follow a logical order. She has a 100's chart that sits next to her at the table when she does her math, we've highlighted the different skip counting numbers. So, if she's trying to read the number 36 or change it from tally marks to the number or vise versa, she has the hardest time realizing that it will be in the 4th line down of numbers, that you could just say here's the 1's line, then the 10's, then the 20's, etc.

I guess when we finish the MUS primer, we'll take some time (a month or two or three) to work on number recognition. We worked on it for a big chunk of the K year, through February when we started the MUS primer. I did not feel like we were making any progress and a few people suggested working on number concepts and just letting her use a cheat sheet, so we moved on. I'm afraid that if I spend a couple months on it, it will be the same thing, and we'll make no progress again, but I don't think we're ready to move onto Alpha.

[mamakay]

Yes, she can say the numbers up to 10 (like I said, she's tripping up after that since we introduced skip counting), so if she has a number line to look at, she can easily find the number. But when it comes to double digit numbers, she's not grasping the concept at all, that they follow a logical order. She has a 100's chart that sits next to her at the table when she does her math, we've highlighted the different skip counting numbers. So, if she's trying to read the number 36 or change it from tally marks to the number or vise versa, she has the hardest time realizing that it will be in the 4th line down of numbers, that you could just say here's the 1's line, then the 10's, then the 20's, etc.

I would probably not try to move onto that phase before recognising numbers 1-9 really, REALLY well and easily first.
The higher numbers are going to be really hard for her if she can't recognise the symbols for 1-9, yk?
I think the logical progression should go:

1) the ability to "make" 4 (for example, 4 crayons)
2) being able to add the simple numbers (like, 4 crayons plus one crayon makes 5 crayons)
3) knowing the symbols for one through nine (1-9)
4) being able to understand that "4+1=5" in the sense that it means something like "this symbol "4" means "four" and that 1 means "one", so, it's asking what's "four plus one, and the answer is five, aka 5".

That's the springboard for everything beyond, imo.

[GnomeyNewt]

My DD is only in K right now and has been counting for a while now, as for the number recognition that has been a little harder for her. I can understand that at 6.5 yrs, the weight on learning them is more but I hope you do take a step back and realize that she will get it eventually (I always tell myself ... that they will get "whatever it is they don't know how to do" by the time they are 18 yrs old, I don't know why but it makes me laugh because its a little absurd to believe, for example that they won't be reading by 10 let alone 18 years old and helps me get through whatever it is -- usually some annoying habit). Also as with reading, it just clicks for them sometime before 7 years old, I'm sure there is other developmental stages for number recognition and according to your results you got recently, she might just be delayed in this area.

My daughter couldn't write 4/6/7/8/9's and couldn't tell the difference between 6,8, & 9. Personally, I hate flash cards and I don't use them and I figure once they get it, they will get it and no about of looking at the same thing in the same format over and over will help them bridge the gap -- what they need is a new idea or concept on what they are learning, because whatever has been done before hasn't worked yet. What has worked for us, since my daughter knows her letters well, is compare them to a letter. For example H = 4 (capital H with a missing leg we say) and G = 6 (capital G with the line touching) and B = 8 (capital B) and g = 9 (lower case g's, some reason this helped with decipher between 6&9 too). I don't know why but that helped her and she can write those numbers now with less assistance, she does still need assistance from time to time by reminding her our little letter comparisons or I make her count them out on a chart for extra counting practice and to find/locate the correct number.

Also, if they watch dvd's we recently watched LeapFrog Math Circus which my DD really loves this a lot. I got the leapfrog set for my youngest who is 2 1/2 yrs and not talking much yet, thinking the Leapfrogs would be "wordy" but they actually appeal to my DD much more and my DS which continues to work on his physical abilities in the background... I do catch him sounding out letters... which is pretty cute on a 2 1/2 year old that doesn't talk much... knows some phonics!

[PGTlatte]

Our DS is 6.5. In the kitchen I have a number line on the table (blue tape and sharpie), a hundred chart on the cabinet, and a set of numbered apples across the top of the wall. He still needs to look at the number line to always know what number he's looking at. I decided at some point to quit working on "number recognition" and just move on and let him use his references as much as he needed to, and took him into addition and subtraction in workbooks. I started with offering him the abacus, a box of counting bears, and the number line, whatever he wanted to use to help him with the problems, and for a while me made frequent use of all three. Now he pretty much just uses the number line. He still has to be careful that he's read the correct numbers to start off with. And he cannot seem to keep 11 and and 12 sorted in his head, and is still not getting the teen numbers. But lots and lots and lots of practice with using the lower numbers for something (the addition and subtraction and other problem worksheets) seems to be helping him make sense of which number is which.

[jessicaSAR]

This does sound like there is some problem, if she really can't visualize the symbol in her head. When I first read your post it made me think of Nanci Bell's work in visualizing words for reading. She has a book that applies the same techniques for children struggling with math. Here's a link to the book

http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Visualiz...6301016&sr=1-9

And an interview about her work in reading

http://www.childrenofthecode.org/int...damoodbell.htm

And a website with some more info

http://www.lblp.com/


Does she like to do Dot-to-Dot books? You might try that with a number line beside it, just to get her looking at the symbol alone. Or maybe some Montessori sandpaper letters type stuff where she traces the symbol, then tries to close her eyes and see the image in her head, or trace it in the air.

[Jen+2monkeys]

You could have just described my DD, except she is 5.5yo. She can count to 10, give me a certain # of items if I ask, look at a group of items and tell me how many w/o counting (up to 6), and can do simple addition & subtraction in her head (I mostly see this when we are cooking). But ask her to identify any digit above 5 and she gets frustrated and can't do it.

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

Does she like to do Dot-to-Dot books? You might try that with a number line beside it, just to get her looking at the symbol alone. Or maybe some Montessori sandpaper letters type stuff where she traces the symbol, then tries to close her eyes and see the image in her head, or trace it in the air.

We have been doing the ideas above as well as playing War and Go Fish with cards. I only use cards # 2-10 and take the rest out. This seems to be working to get her to recognize the numbers, but she needed help at first. I hope this helps. It is a really hard thing to figure out.

[ikesmom]

When my ds was in K he only really knew up to 10 or 12. They wanted him to be able to count up to 30. He only knew about 10 letters in the alphabet. They wanted to hold him back..and we already knew he had LD's . He didn't start talking until the summer before K. I considered holding him back, but the school psychologist and speech aide asked me not to. They said that he would just have to get it on his own. He had 2 years of developmental preschool already and he still didn't catch on. They felt that it didn't matter how much we tried..he just wasn't ready.

We could show him a letter and have him repeat it 3 times and then ask him a minute later what letter it was..he couldn't tell us. I decided not to hold him back and he learned his alphabet and counted up to 30 within 2 months of that time. I don't know what clicked , but I just had to wait. I know it is hard and that she is almost 7. I know you will try everything you can because you just can't not try. I just want you to know that she will know the numbers eventually and if it isn't till she is 7, 8, or 9 or whenever then she will still know them before she is an adult. It is almost like saying "this is ok" . I still struggle with this very issue because there are more tasks or things to learn. I have to tell myself to quit measuring ds.

I remember as a child there were a few things that took me eons to master. I couldn't tie my shoes for the longest time. I didn't know how to tell time on a regular clock till I was 10 or 11. I learned eventually. I am a happy adult and in the long run it was a small thing.

I don't remember if I mentioned this to you before http://dotmath.tripod.com/

We made a number line on a sentence strip with foam numbers and puff paint dots on each number. It helped ds a lot.

[scheelimama]

Thanks for all the ideas ladies. My 2 older girls pulled out a Go Fish game (numbers) this morning on their own, which I perfect for them right now. DD2 who will be 5 in 2 weeks also struggles with a few numbers, but I think it's still age appropriate for her and she does get them more often than not, and definitely more often than dd1. At any rate, it's a great game for both of them. So, that's their "school" this morning. I think we'll play war more too, that's a great non-preschoolish way for her to work on her numbers. I might try to find some other games that use all the numbers up to 10 (most only use up to 6, which is probably why she doesn't struggle with those numbers as much).

I'm torn on just moving ahead and letting her use crutches or cheats vs. taking time to work on mastering the numbers. I was hoping it would have "clicked" by now. I do think for sure, we'll take a month or two to work on them once we are finished with the primer, but if we don't seem to be making progress, I suppose we'll continue to just move on with crutches. We can't just work on numbers forever.

[joandsarah77]

She reminds me a lot of my daughter. My daughter is about to turn 8 and I can finally say she now has most of the numbers 0-12 down pretty well. The teens, particularly 13 and 15 trip her up as does 20 for some reason. Sometimes she will write 7 and 6 backwards and write p for 9. She also struggles a lot with reading and still sounds out the tiniest words such as 'can'

Some of the things we did was make numbers and letters out of play doe, write them in a sand tray, and printed and laminated large ones for her to jump on. We also made them with our bodies. For example to make a seven we would stand straight with arms out and head bent. We still when she mixes them up write them with our fingers in the air.

We also use MUS, the coloured blocks help a lot. We are on lesson 14 in Alpha now. Everything from primer is repeated in Alpha. There is quite a lot of writing from 0-20 at the start. There is also place value at the beginning too. My daughter had quite a hard time with that at first, but the visual aspect of the green, blue and red house on the street really helped her get that. The web site gives some practice sheets, but not on these things! I guess they assume most kids will get this easily through the sheets given. I wouldn't feel bad about photocoping some to redo, after all you have bought the book and are not selling them.

[scheelimama]

Originally Posted by joandsarah77

She reminds me a lot of my daughter. My daughter is about to turn 8 and I can finally say she now has most of the numbers 0-12 down pretty well. The teens, particularly 13 and 15 trip her up as does 20 for some reason. Sometimes she will write 7 and 6 backwards and write p for 9. She also struggles a lot with reading and still sounds out the tiniest words such as 'can'

Some of the things we did was make numbers and letters out of play doe, write them in a sand tray, and printed and laminated large ones for her to jump on. We also made them with our bodies. For example to make a seven we would stand straight with arms out and head bent. We still when she mixes them up write them with our fingers in the air.

We also use MUS, the coloured blocks help a lot. We are on lesson 14 in Alpha now. Everything from primer is repeated in Alpha. There is quite a lot of writing from 0-20 at the start. There is also place value at the beginning too. My daughter had quite a hard time with that at first, but the visual aspect of the green, blue and red house on the street really helped her get that. The web site gives some practice sheets, but not on these things! I guess they assume most kids will get this easily through the sheets given. I wouldn't feel bad about photocoping some to redo, after all you have bought the book and are not selling them.

Wow, they do sound very similar. Good idea to photocopy some of the worksheets from Alpha. Thanks! I've found that most curriculums assume that children pretty much know their numbers or else that they will easily pick it up from just a few worksheets. Maybe most do, but not all.

[GinaRae]

Originally Posted by scheelimama

We took her for a full developmental evaluation. She was diagnosed with ADHD, sensory processing problems, and a "decoding" problem, possible visual and auditory processing problems.

I must have missed the dx stuff before
you find some magic on this number stuff soon.

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by GinaRae

I must have missed the dx stuff before
you find some magic on this number stuff soon.

YTT

I can relate to her having a concept (the idea of 7, 7 of someting) and struggling with the "code" of the written 7 ... i wish i knew how it DID finally click for me .... (letter not numbers) ....

HUGS

you are an awsome momma

[Tjej]

Maybe not helpful, but I had 2 thoughts when I read the OP.

Are her eyes working properly? (Then I saw that there may be an issue there in a later post - perhaps working on this issue could help).

Have you seen the Leap Frog videos? Math Circus and Letter Factory are really quite good.

HTH

Tjej

[LauraLoo]

If there is an issue with visual memory, you can try these exercises:

http://www.eyecanlearn.com/#Memory

Actually, there seem to be some good exercises for visual perception in general:

http://www.eyecanlearn.com/#Vision%2...ption%20Skills

I do think it's important for you to read the disclaimer on this site:
Parents, teachers, and OT's, please note: These activities are offered as a fun way to help sharpen "learning-related" visual skills that are critical for success in school. If a child has deficits in visual information processing, these simple exercises alone are not sufficient to correct a problem. Please do not confuse these exercises with vision therapy. Vision therapy involves a much wider scope of remediation procedures involving the use of lenses, prisms, filters, and instrumentation in a closely sequenced program prescribed by developmental optometrists. However, if your child has difficulty with these activities, it could indicate there is a problem with his/her binocular vision system, and you may want to contact a developmental optometrist for further evaluation.

My ds had vision therapy - not for visual perception issues - but for other related vision issues. His issues had been overlooked since he easily passed a 20/20 vision exam, but vision is more complex than just seeing 20/20. His therapy by a developmental optometrist was very, very effective.