friends who circ

[2xy]

I'm sure there are threads here about this subject, but something happened to me today that made me uncomfortable (hard to do!) and I don't feel I handled it well.

I visited a friend who I haven't seen in a long time. She has several children, and a baby who is just a few months old. She was telling me how she's gotten a lot of flack from her friends about circumcising him, and launched into the "reasons" why she had him circed.

I'm pretty open about my anti-circ views, but I don't tell people how to raise their kids. Probably about half of my friends have circed boys....some of whom regret it and some who don't. I would never stop being friends with someone over this issue (I know some people here would). But I've never had someone bring the subject up to me the way she did today.

I didn't know how to respond to this! I kind of smiled uneasily and changed the subject. I guess part of me just felt that nothing was going to change her mind. She's done having kids so it's not going to happen again. I didn't know what to say. Plus, she's super sensitive and I've offended her before (regarding religion), so I sort of hold my tongue and keep conversation light and superficial with her. Honestly, she's a very nice person but I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around her sometimes....which is why I don't see her very often.

And now I'm sort of mad at myself for not saying something. I don't know....I'm all confused about it.

[Krystal323]

I kwym, I think. I have more friends who circ than don't, and while we've discussed the topic briefly, I dont' think they have any idea how deeply opposed to it I am, because, well, I guess i didn't want to upset them

These are folks who are otherwise very AP, crunchy, etc....but for whatever reason don't feel the same about circ as I do. I've heard their "reasons" and they don't hold up at all to me--but apparently they feel strongly in that direction.. *sigh*

[Burnindinner]

I think you handled that situation fine. First of all, she really wasn't looking for your opinion. The way she brought it up indicated she's heard all the anti reasons and still chose to do it. She wasn't asking what you thought about that, or even expressing dissatisfaction with her decision. Second, you knew it would probably be detrimental to the relationship for no purpose and she's probably not going to face the decision in the future.

Perhaps by being an anti-circ friend who is still her friend and didn't slam her or call her a bad person, she'll be open to really hearing your opinion in the future.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Burnindinner

Perhaps by being an anti-circ friend who is still her friend and didn't slam her or call her a bad person, she'll be open to really hearing your opinion in the future.

I'm not really sure she knows my position on circ. I don't think we've ever discussed it. My boys are way older than her kids, and I don't really make a habit of discussing their penile status with my friends, y'know?

She told me that her brother got a really bad infection when he was a pre-teen, and "had to be" circed, and that it was really horrible for the whole family. She never wants to have to deal with that with her kids. I wanted to tell her that many people are told that they "have to be" circed even though there are other ways to treat infections, and that it's far more civilized to just teach your son how to bathe, but I bit my tongue.

I don't usually bite my tongue. And I'm wondering why I continue to do this with her. Usually, if I feel like I don't have enough in common with someone, I just sort of let the friendship evaporate. She and I don't see eye to eye on many things. We met through a homeschooling group and one of her kids was friendly with one of my kids for awhile, and I tried to forge a friendship with her. She takes things very personally and is very thin-skinned, and I have a hard time dealing with that sort of personality.

[Burnindinner]

Hm, especially with that in her family history, I could see her taking perceived criticism of her family and her choices very, very personally. Basically, in my own opinion without knowing you, I think you did the best you could in the circumstances.

That said, if the friendship isn't helping either of you grow more into the people you are meant to be, perhaps it has run its course? That is OK too, you know that happens through life.

[Goodmom2008]

Rather than listen to her trying to justify what she did to her son, you could have told her that you are very against MGM and would prefer not to hear her attempt to justify what she did to her son. You could word it a little more tactfully, but if you don't let her know, she just may bring up her justifications for mutilating her son again. She may not if she knows how you really feel.

[NaturalMindedMomma]

I have to say, i was coming here to post something similar.

Being an Intactavist to me, means that I am always going to have to educate people even when it is uncomfy. But what about the people who matter most? Like my best friends and my sister in law?

I frequently post anti-circ literature on my Facebook, something erupted yesterday and my sister in law was posting and very obviously upset. I love her and she knows my views, but I know it most likely hurt her. When you stop arguing the pros and cons and just bring out the "It's not your penis" card or the fact that you believe it is a Right to have genital integrity, I think it is natural for people who circed to feel attacked.

I mean really, you are telling them that something the government allows them to do to their child is indeed a violation of their childs rights. It's confusing and emotional. Also, telling a parent that their sons genitalia is broken or imperfect is not the easiest thing to hear either, all parents want to think their children are perfect (at least most do, LOL).

I guess I just wanted to say I understand. If we are going to continue our relationships with people whom we love and care about that indeed circ, we are going to have some icky moments.

It is obvious to people in my life that I am an Intactivists, I give information to a person once, then I let it be. They are ultimately going to do what they want to do. I just hope through education, we can eventually make it stop all together.

[JennaW]

That is a hard situation. I would tend to agree with a PP that it sounds like maybe this friendship has run it's course, maybe time to just let it fall by the wayside?

The thing to me that is the hardest about this type of situation, is I worry about other people spreading their misinformation to people who still have the chance to do it differently. I am anti-circ but not really an activist about it, maybe if I had a son I would feel more strongly? But I think something similar happens a lot with BFing. You have a friend that chooses not to BF for whatever reasons but then starts to say things about BFing that aren't true. On one hand you want to correct them not for their own sake but for the sake of other mothers and on the other hand you just want to let things be.

It's a toughy. We recently went on vacation with some friends. They had circ their first DS and actually had problems because of it and he had to have another surgery when he was about 15 months to correct something related to the circ. The way they talked made it sound like they wouldn't circ again so I didn't bring it up. Well on vacation it somehow came up that they had circ'ed their second DS The Dad said "We circ'd DS 1 and wish we hadn't but we didn't want DS 2 to look different from his brother so we circ him too." Ah, my heart just dropped. I just didn't really say anything. There isn't anything that can be done at that point. And he just had a vasectomy so they aren't having more kids. It was funny though because DH has 3 brothers and our friend said to him "You wouldn't have wanted to look different from your big brother, would you?" and DH was like "I don't think it would have mattered, its not like we spend all say looking at each others dicks." LOL

[2xy]

Originally Posted by JennaW

The Dad said "We circ'd DS 1 and wish we hadn't but we didn't want DS 2 to look different from his brother so we circ him too."

This is what happened to my BIL. My DH is two years older than him. DH was circed and his parents thought differently after it was done....but didn't want BIL to look different. WTF? If one kid gets hurt and loses a limb, are you going to amputate his sister's arm, too? I soooooo don't get it.

[CHoney]

Originally Posted by 2xy

She told me that her brother got a really bad infection when he was a pre-teen, and "had to be" circed, and that it was really horrible for the whole family. She never wants to have to deal with that with her kids. I wanted to tell her that many people are told that they "have to be" circed even though there are other ways to treat infections, and that it's far more civilized to just teach your son how to bathe, but I bit my tongue.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I wondered if you have more information about this! My DH has 3 younger brothers, 2 weren't circ'd and one got an infection and "had to get circ'd" when he was 14!!! I would love to know more about this so I can tell others if they're ever in that situation.

And I think you handled the situation well with your friend, especially because she's really sensitive.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by CHoney

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I wondered if you have more information about this! My DH has 3 younger brothers, 2 weren't circ'd and one got an infection and "had to get circ'd" when he was 14!!! I would love to know more about this so I can tell others if they're ever in that situation.

And I think you handled the situation well with your friend, especially because she's really sensitive.

This is more than likely a case of medical over-reaction. Boys get exactly the same infections as girls -- yeast or bacterial -- and we don't cut parts off girls for infections, do we? No. We treat them with antifungals/antibiotics/a change in cleaning routine/eliminating harsh soaps and bubble baths, etc. There is nothing different about the foreskin -- it develops from exactly the same parts in utero as the female genitals do, and is made of exactly the same kinds of tissue.

But in this country, the only answer for years to any problem of the intact penis has been amputation. "Tight foreskin? Cut it off. Yeast infection? Ditto. Ballooning when peeing? Off it comes. Bacterial infection? Here comes the knife!" That is because we live in a cutting culture, including the medical culture which essentially only learns that the foreskin is a ticking time bomb to be cut off at the first whisper of trouble.

It's also true that we live in a foreskin-phobic culture, one for years that treated the intact penis as a source of germs and filth. So the rare boy that escaped the knife at birth was likely subjected to repeated premature retraction and over-cleaning, leading to scarring and possibly repeated infections -- again leading up to an almost-inevitable circ.

So stories of someone's brother/father/cousin/whoever "needing" to be circed for infections can almost universally be explained as the result of misinformation and bad advice all the way down the line.

[~Katie~]

For me, I have to have enough in common with people not only with parenting choices but with over-all personality in order to maintain friendships with them. It sounds like maybe your personalities don't jive well together. It's inevitable that you're going to bring up parenting topics as regular conversation. If they don't pair well AND you have personality conflicts, I'd probably let the friendship go.

Typically, when I'm newly friends with someone or they bring up topics that don't agree with me and aren't aware of my position, I tend to make a certain face and kind of laugh uncomfortably and change the topic. That usually sends enough of a message. I have one case in particular with someone (who also happens to be my neighbor). I've come to realize that we are polar opposites (think Babywise and the whole she-bang). I don't think she realized it until she added me on Facebook and saw my interests and the articles I post. Since then she has kind of distanced herself but is still kind to me. I figure she's doing me a favor because I don't want to hear about her CIOing her three week old and she's doesn't want to hear about me co-sleeping

[ramama]

I've been in the same situation as you, OP. Not only do I not say anything, I sit there feeling like I'm not entitled to an opinion of circumcision because I have two girls and will not ever be having a boy. It's a strange mixture of anger, confusion, and the feeling of being judged or censored that really makes me uncomfortable. I am very aware that many of those emotions I am perpetrating on myself

[PuppyFluffer]

ramama, just because you only have girls doesn't mean you are not entitled to an opinion on circumcision. As a mother, I think we are all sensitive to the needs of all children, regardless of gender. Human rights are not gender specific.

The damage of circumcision ripples out so far and wide - even making people who have never had to personally deal with the issue feel uncomfortable. Circumcision seems to have a very pervasive sense of ick about it - either that or a person is so pro circ that they cannot allow themselves to see otherwise.