Homeschool aptitude

[LilyGrace]

I've been slowly reading Teaching What Really Happened (the companion to Lies My Teacher Told Me, but how to approach history in new ways). There is a very long chapter about how teachers unconsciously treat students based on what they expect out of them - minorities are less likely to be assessed for being gifted or kept a year back because they're expected to perform lower. It's a lot more than that, and how the subtle ranking within classrooms affect how children see themselves and others.

It struck me.....perhaps this is why hs'd students tend to have higher test scores on average. Could it be that it's not the one on one, exactly, but the fact that they are working at their potential no matter what? That unschoolers, school at homers, all of our children, that the true advantage is that they are just with someone who believes they are capable and expects them to be?

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

I've been slowly reading Teaching What Really Happened (the companion to Lies My Teacher Told Me, but how to approach history in new ways). There is a very long chapter about how teachers unconsciously treat students based on what they expect out of them - minorities are less likely to be assessed for being gifted or kept a year back because they're expected to perform lower. It's a lot more than that, and how the subtle ranking within classrooms affect how children see themselves and others.

It struck me.....perhaps this is why hs'd students tend to have higher test scores on average. Could it be that it's not the one on one, exactly, but the fact that they are working at their potential no matter what? That unschoolers, school at homers, all of our children, that the true advantage is that they are just with someone who believes they are capable and expects them to be?

I think a lot of it is expectations ...but I think that 'goes beyond" jsut what the teacher expects of the child, but on to the fact that -- for example -- mom expects Jill to learn fracktions ... so mom tried 4 differnt approaches untill Jill get it ...whereas the school teacher doesn't have that option. Also i think you have to compare that --- that we expect our children to do well and have the ablity to keep looking for what they need to succed -- with teh classroom teacher when Jill doesn't get it the frst time in class has to assume it is Jill's problem and not the fault of the teaching method. Where as i think a HS mom or dad is more likly to think the teaching approach is not right than that the child is not right --

[Roar]

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

That unschoolers, school at homers, all of our children, that the true advantage is that they are just with someone who believes they are capable and expects them to be?

I would like to say we all see our kids with fresh eyes and wide open expectations every day I don't believe that's true. I think parents can be as guilty or even more guilty of some of this than teachers. It can be possible for parents to think things like "Johnny isn't a kid who is good at sitting still with activities" even though that was really just Johnny's energy level at age four not a lifelong condition. Or, they may think "people in our family have never been good at math" and overlook that this child has a particular talent in that area. I think there is a lot to be said for having a mix of different adults in a kid's life who will see the child where they are right at that moment.

[Daffodil103]

I think expectations play a significant role in outcomes. The most recent example that comes to mind is the StatsCanada data that shows that 88.4% and 82.4% of second generation Canadians of Chinese and African origin respectively will be attending university by age 23. The national average is about 40%. It's generally accepted that the single biggest factor involved is parent expectations. (Interestingly, school boards use the increase in % of non-English speaking families as a reason for declining or stagnant achievement scores yet these same non-English speakers are going on to higher education.)

There was another study a few years back that suggested that math scores in middle school are not influenced by parents' education, socio-economic status or involvement; rather parent expectations. I can't find it now but I remember emailing it to friends. At the time I found it surprising.

So yes, I can see teacher expectations playing a role. Whose influence wins ultimately depends on a lot of individual factors, I think.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

There is a very long chapter about how teachers unconsciously treat students based on what they expect out of them - minorities are less likely to be assessed for being gifted or kept a year back because they're expected to perform lower. It's a lot more than that, and how the subtle ranking within classrooms affect how children see themselves and others.

There are so many studies that validate this point that it's not even funny. In my entire Master's (in Teaching) I have seen more of these studies than I truly care to remember. And they span back over at LEAST the last 30 years.

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

It struck me.....perhaps this is why hs'd students tend to have higher test scores on average. Could it be that it's not the one on one, exactly, but the fact that they are working at their potential no matter what? That unschoolers, school at homers, all of our children, that the true advantage is that they are just with someone who believes they are capable and expects them to be?

Abso-friggin-lutely.

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee

for example -- mom expects Jill to learn fracktions ... so mom tried 4 differnt approaches untill Jill get it ...whereas the school teacher doesn't have that option. Also i think you have to compare that --- that we expect our children to do well and have the ablity to keep looking for what they need to succed -- with teh classroom teacher when Jill doesn't get it the frst time in class has to assume it is Jill's problem and not the fault of the teaching method. Where as i think a HS mom or dad is more likly to think the teaching approach is not right than that the child is not right --

I agree with that being a contributor, too. But the reality is that we keep trying because we believe in our children.

Originally Posted by Roar

I would like to say we all see our kids with fresh eyes and wide open expectations every day I don't believe that's true. I think parents can be as guilty or even more guilty of some of this than teachers. It can be possible for parents to think things like "Johnny isn't a kid who is good at sitting still with activities" even though that was really just Johnny's energy level at age four not a lifelong condition. Or, they may think "people in our family have never been good at math" and overlook that this child has a particular talent in that area. I think there is a lot to be said for having a mix of different adults in a kid's life who will see the child where they are right at that moment.

While I don't disagree with you, the studies go beyond just expectations and into WHY those expectations exist due to differences in culture (and by culture, they mean not just race or ethnicity, but family cultures or local cultures that the teacher isn't familiar with or ways of doing things in a family or a locale that the teacher is familiar with or the culture of socioeconomics--be it poverty, middle class or affluence, but different from the teacher). Sometimes it's not even lower expectations that are the problem, but the teacher's belief that a child is defaultly capable of MORE than they are--which is equally problematic.

Those don't exist when a parent is teaching their child. And these are the heaviest factors in teacher expectations being a problem.

I see what you're saying in that things can be overlooked or parents may not see something in their child. I agree with having multiple perspectives (to a point). But I find it hard to believe there is a significant percentage of the homeschooling parent population with lower or higher expectations of their child across the board in a way that significantly affects their overall education--and more importantly, their self-esteem. Unfortunately there aren't any studies on that, though.

Oh... and the studies show that this is not just a teacher-student thing. There were studies done to show that different schools would choose curriculum and teachers implemented teaching methods based on the perceived abilities of the student population. The end results were EXTREMELY disturbing: they taught the wealthier kids to actually think, defend their choices and carry on conversations with authority figures where the lower income kids were taught to recall facts instead of think and only answered questions asked with authority figures (these is nutshelling it obviously).

ETA the study I'm most familiar with on this: Social Class and School Knowledge by Jean Anyon
Curriculum Inquiry, Vol. 11, No. 1. (Spring, 1981), pp. 3-42.
Stable URL:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=036...3E2.0.CO%3B2-E


So it's a systemic thing--not just a classroom thing.

I can cite the studies if anyone's interested--I just have to dig them out.

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by Roar

I would like to say we all see our kids with fresh eyes and wide open expectations every day I don't believe that's true. I think parents can be as guilty or even more guilty of some of this than teachers. It can be possible for parents to think things like "Johnny isn't a kid who is good at sitting still with activities" even though that was really just Johnny's energy level at age four not a lifelong condition. Or, they may think "people in our family have never been good at math" and overlook that this child has a particular talent in that area. I think there is a lot to be said for having a mix of different adults in a kid's life who will see the child where they are right at that moment.

I think this is a real risk. I see myself doing it -- "oh Theo can't handle that he is too ....emotional, wiggly, etc" . BUT I think the bonus is I am on gaurd for it. (As i have to say i know some school teachers are too) However, if one was NOT on alert for it -- i can see how it would be a problem. and for us, i think this is part of why it is not good to homeschool in an artifical vacume -- but to be sure there are other adult
s in a "leadership" position for the boys -- Sunday School, trading lessons with another HS mom we know ... and so on ...

I think heatherdeg has vaild points -- that when you are dealing with a "stanger" (teacher) and a group where the group is mostly new to the teacher eacdh Sept and she or he only has them till May -- it is a stronger risk. even on a personal level -- Jonny's 1st grade teacher fround hima PITB for whatever real or fake reason, she complains abut him to her peers, when Jonny goes into 2nd the new teacher already expects him to be a PITB .... i think THAT bias maybe more relvant than the "Jonny is Asian and so they expect him to be good at math"

but i could be wrong.

i agree it is all about expectations.

i have seen homeschool families do it too -- they have high expectations for Story of the World and the refuse to see when it is not a good fit for the child. (I am going to have to really watch myself on this on )

[Roar]

To be clear I'm in no way attempting to diminish the significance of race and class discrimination in the school classroom. I agree it is pervasive throughout the system and absolutely there are children who over and over again get the experience that not a lot should be expected from them. On a more subtle level there can also be a message to whole groups of kids that based on their age they are lazy, not trustworthy, must be manipulated to do any work, etc. These are huge problems.

Having been in homeschool environments now K-12 though I'm also clear that many parents are far from innocent in the expectations department. It can be hard to see something clearly when it is an inch from your face for years on end. Not all parents have really accurate perspectives on their kids - some have really inaccurate ones.

If I had to explain the difference in test scores I would not look so much to the question of expectations and would look more at personalized attention, flexibility and the group of people who initially select to homeschool.