Raising a puppy... questions

[HealingBeam]

It's been 14 years since we had a puppy in our home and we didn't have any children then.
So, here we are with new puppy in our home and with tons of questions.
You've convinced me not to follow C. Millan's advice and I'm waiting for McConnell's book I ordered yesterday but have few questions that can't wait.

Puppy "attacking"/rough playing with my toddler
We never left them unsupervised but I can't follow my toddler all around the room. We have situations when DS is crawling or playing on the floor and puppy jumps on him trying to pull his hair or bite him (in play but the tiny teeth are not pleasant especially for a toddler).
What can I do to prevent/stop that behavior?
For now, I pick up the puppy, firmly saying NO and put him on his blanket (we don't use a crate as they are very expensive here and we didn't plan to buy it). And repeat this as many times as needed to redirect the puppy to a toy or anything else.

The play is so rough that my toddler, who LOVES dogs, starts showing signs of fear towards our puppy.
The problem is that my older DD loves to play a bit more energetic with the puppy (is that ok? ), wrestling a bit and chasing through the apartment and the puppy obviously thinks he can do that with a toddler too.

Another question ... walks, outdoor activity (and then I have to go out..I'll keep writing/asking when we come back inside)…
The puppy is almost 8 weeks old and we'll vaccinate him today for the first time (the mom's owners didn't vaccinate puppies). When can we start taking him for regular outdoor activities (we don't have our own yard, we'll have to go to the places where is possible to meet other dogs but we don't have dog parks so we can avoid the most frequent parks/spots)? I assume that a bit of outdoor activity will be good for our puppy.

[Noelle C.]

Can I slam my head into the wall? The pup isn't even eight weeks old? He is too young to be away from the litter. Breeders who sell the dogs the second they are weaned (usually made to wean earlier than they otherwise would) help make all breeders look terrible. *insert expletives* I've never let a pup go earlier than 12 weeks and with FULL shots, and I'm averaging interviewing more than a dozen homes per pup. This last litter we had we took a full six months to find homes because we were NOT going to just let a pup go anywhere. Hell no. They are almost 2 years old, and we are still in contact with every home, even though we've moved hundreds of miles away, and our take-back policy remains in effect. But every pup is still with their families. Breeders, like the one you went to who will toss a pup at whoever has the cash, selling too-young pups without any shots or giving much, if any, thought to whether or not the home was suitable, make all breeders look bad. Thank that breeder for me.

When I've had puppies, to teach no biting, one thing I always did that worked VERY effectively is to grab their bottom jaw for a few seconds when they bit, releasing when the pup decided to pull away. It doesn't hurt, but it cuts their fun time short for a moment and teaches them that human body parts in the mouth aren't fun. What does picking up a pup and saying NO, then giving a toy, really do? Pup bit, pup was given a toy. Positive reinforcement of biting! Biting gets pup a toy! With grabbing the jaw. Pup bites, fun ends. Pup doesn't bite, no interruption to the fun times!

Personally I am not against Cesar's methods. Know why? Watch how a mother dog teaches her puppies. Puppies learn differently than humans. Puppies are not human children. Puppies play so much rougher than human children. Mom-dogs nip at ears and do all kinds of stuff that we wouldn't do to our human-kids. This is simply how pups learn naturally. Yet human-children methods are often employed on pups, and them people wonder why training is taking so long or even going nowhere. I'm not saying to beat up a pup, but pups aren't humans, and they learn from different methods. We've been complimented to the hilt and back on how well-behaved, loving, and social our dogs are.

Also important is to, from an early age, get them used to things such as having their paws touched, between their toes pinched, their ears and tails tugged a bit, etc.. I can see you're wondering why. A dog who isn't used to these things may turn and snap and bite reflexively. If a child were to quickly tug on one of our dogs' ears she'd get a licking instead of a biting. Play with our dogs' paws and, at worst, our older one will pull her paw away. Their sensitive trigger spots have been desensitized and they're used to these spots being touched. A common reason for dogs to end up in shelters is a kid pulls an ear and gets nipped. You have kids. Young kids. You need to work on desensitizing the pup NOW to these things. you can't be there every single second, as you said, which is realistic and anyone who says otherwise needs to join reality, so you need to train your pup to be used to these things happening unexpectedly.

As for when to take him out and about, he needs, at the least, a couple rounds of vaxes, including bordetella (bortedella? I always mix up the D and T - it's better known as kennel cough). A bit of activity will be good for him, but save the looooong walks for later. Also note that many dog parks have age limits, so he may be too young to go to a dog park yet.

[HealingBeam]

Thanks for your answers.
But, please, don't slam your head...

… we didn't buy the dog, so at least it wasn't about irresponsible breeder but about irresponsible dog owner.
We wanted a puppy from the shelter but the shelter didn't have any puppies for some time so we found out about this litter from a local message board. Till the time we arrived to see the puppies (I planned we'd see them and choose one but let it stay with mom for a few more weeks), most of them were gone (taken away by new owners). I asked if it would be ok for puppy to stay with mom for some time longer but the owner said she weaned them all anyway … since we wanted that kind of dog (mix breed, medium sized) and saw they were kept in bad conditions (in the stable, not treated for fleas, parasites and not vaccinated), we decided it would be better for the puppy to come home with us immediately.
I know it would be better if the pup stayed longer with his mom.

I'll change my reactions to pup biting toddler immediately.

I'll check Cesar's book as well as the other book. I know that dog's behavior is different from ours but other members' comments about Cesar's work made me insecure about following his advice. But, there's no harm in reading the book anyway.

Also important is to, from an early age, get them used to things such as having their paws touched, between their toes pinched, their ears and tails tugged a bit

I knew that, thank you for reminding me. I'll be childproofing the dog as well as dogproofing the children. The older one grew up with our first dog but my bigger concern is our toddler. I'll work on that.


About vaccination… our vet uses Vanguard Plus 5. It doesn't contain Bordetella component.. I'll ask him about it next time we see each other.

We'll wait with outdoor activities and walks.

[sagira]

As a person who reads dozens of dog books just for fun, I love Patricia McConnell's books. I just bought The Puppy Primer and I own Family Friendly Dog Training. I wanted to recommend one more: The Puppy Whisperer by Paul Owens. He's great, and this book is the best IMO for raising a puppy. We already put a deposit down for our puppy (from a reputable breeder -- asked all the right questions) and we'll have our new puppy with us sometime late Winter or early Spring. Good luck!

[greenmagick]

Nothing wrong with reading Milan, but as his show states "dont try this at home!"

I agree with the above suggestions and will add Karen Pryor, Suzanne Clothier, and Ian Dunbar.

Dunbar has one of his books available as a free pdf! There is a ton of advice in there. The Before one is still very important even if you already have a pup

Before You Get Your Puppy

After You Get Your Puppy

[Ola_]

Oy, not even 8 weeks old and you already have him? Yikes. I'd find someone with a stable-tempered adult dog and start having "playdates" asap. You want the adult dog to help teach the puppy bite inhibition (and that's one of the things that his mom and littermates would normally really help with).

Personally I'd be glad that the pup wasn't vaccinated as many breeders overdo the vaccines IMO (and a lot of the time they're not effective because maternal immunity is still in effect). Do a bit of research on puppy vaccines - I think we had some threads on here not too long ago about it with some good links/resources shared. For one I would NOT do any of the combo vaccines. They have too many things in them, some of which you don't want to give, and also the likelyhood of a reaction is much higher because you're giving so many at the same time. Your vet should be able to get the individual vaccines that you want to give to avoid this. Here is one link with the recommended shots by puppy age by Dr. Jean Dodds, one of the experts on this IMO:
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODD...-PROTOCOLS.HTM

I'm one of the people who's not a fan of Caesar Milan. For one I don't think dogs are under any illusion that we are just tall fur-less dogs. So the methods that another dog would use will not work for us. Also, there are many subtle things that dogs do in their communication that we don't understand or can't communicate. That's why socializing with other dogs helps. Anyway I'm sure you already read my viewpoint on this in the other thread, so I'll be quiet now. In addition to the books already recommended I'd suggest Childproofing your Dog by Kilcommons/Wilson if you don't already have it (also has a section on dogproofing your child).

Once the puppy has the first round of shots I would start taking him on outings. This is the prime time to socialize him and get him used to the world - it's a very important foundation for the rest of his life. Puppies who don't get this early socialization often can't make up for this missed window even if you work on it for the rest of their life. I wouldn't bring him to a dog park or anything yet, but places that people frequent, shopping areas, etc. If there are many dogs around you can simply pick the pup up so he's not exposed to everything on the ground. It's very important though - I think more dogs are in danger of behaviour issues due to insufficient socialization than to whatever they may pick up when being socialized.

Congratulations on your new addition btw. I don't know if I missed it in reading your post, but what did you name the puppy?

[HealingBeam]

His name is Grom, that's thunderbolt in Croatian.

[HealingBeam]

Oh, and thank you all for your answers.

[Noelle C.]

The kennel cough vaccine isn't a shot. It's a nasal vaccine. Kennel cough is easy enough for a dog to catch from a dog that had been in an area days prior.

With regard to what Nicole said, very few dog-training methods should be undertaken by someone with absolutely no experience with training animals, whether it's Cesar's methods or even NILIF. Any method can be misused, no matter how well-intentioned. For instance, the ol' "teach a dog to sit by pushing on its butt/lower back" isn't even safe as that puts pressure on the developing hips. Scooping under the dog's butt, or raising a treat over its head slowly going back to get the dog to sit on its own are both far safer than pushing down on the hips.

Also no two random dogs are the same any more than you can expect two random children to be the same. One dog may respond very, very well to positive reinforcement only while another may need a firmer hand (I'm not saying to beat a dog to death, hell no).

Originally Posted by Ola_

I'm one of the people who's not a fan of Caesar Milan. For one I don't think dogs are under any illusion that we are just tall fur-less dogs. So the methods that another dog would use will not work for us.

This made me chuckle. No, dog's don't think we're tall, hairless dogs, yet plenty of people think dogs are four-legged, furry human children who will respond to training the same way human children do. Whether they think we're dogs though or know we're a different species (one of my dogs thinks we're the same because SHE is a human in her muddled little pea-brain, I swear it!!), dogs are pack animals and do respect dominance. Respecting dominance doesn't have to mean fearing the dominant one, which is where I think a lot of people go wrong, with the thinking that if you can make a dog fear you, the dog will respect you.

[greenmagick]

You know, I hear all the time that all dogs are different and that different dogs need different methods...I just dont buy it anymore. Not saying everyone has to train the same, but I think the differences come from the human, not the dog. Yes, dogs have different personalities etc and the method may have to be changed up (like for a dog that isnt food motivated, you may have to use something else as a reward..a highly sensitive dog is going to need different reinforcement than a really calm, lazy dog etc)
I guess what I am trying to say is while the method may be different, it should still be based on current studies on how dogs learn, not on tradition.
I really dont understand how anyone could read books by McConnell, Clothier, Pryor, etc and still think punishment based training is ok.

Take clicker training...I have heard people claim it doesnt "work" on their dog. Well, if it works on everything from dolphins, to wolves, to lions, to alligators, to crabs....yes, I think I can safely say it works on dogs...every dog. The "not working" is human perception or error.

Oh, and I totally think if a method isnt safe for a novice to use, it isnt safe.

Cesar Milans methods are based on what people used to think were how wolf packs worked....new studies have come in showing that we were really wrong. Do dogs need a leader, rules, gudance, etc? Yes, absolutely! Do they need to be "dominated" and forced to obey...absolutely NOT!

[Noelle C.]

The one in charge who leads and guides is in a position of dominance. Dominance doesn't have to mean fear or force.

[greenmagick]

I am talking about the whole myth that a dog is constantly fighting you for dominance....if you let your dog walk through a doorway first, its dominating you, if you let your dog on a bed, its dominating you, if you feed your dog first, its dominating you, etc. Dogs are not constantly seeking status and position in the household. Now, that is not to say there will never be clashes...of course there will. Dogs still need to learn manners and how to live safely with humans.

[Ola_]

One of the reasons I personally don't like to use the word "dominance" when talking about dog training is that it's so loaded. It makes people think that they need to use force, win at all costs, and as the PP said that your dog is always trying to take over the world. Then if the dog misbehaves they are willful, trying to defy you, and need to be put in their place. Unfortunately physical punishment is often associated when you use that word as well, including ear pinches, scruffing and alpha-rolling the dog.

I'm not saying that this is what you mean by dominance, but that it has that connotation and when you're trying to explain a training method to someone who is not as experienced with dogs as you are, it can come across this way. I much prefer to use the word "leadership" instead. This seems to get people thinking in a different way - about teaching the dog, setting clear expectations, looking at bad behaviour as confusion, not generalizing, or lack of exercise. Some say it's not a big difference, after all it's just a word, but in my experience it really does make a difference in the relationship you have with your dog.

[Noelle C.]

Originally Posted by greenmagick

I am talking about the whole myth that a dog is constantly fighting you for dominance....if you let your dog walk through a doorway first, its dominating you, if you let your dog on a bed, its dominating you, if you feed your dog first, its dominating you, etc. Dogs are not constantly seeking status and position in the household. Now, that is not to say there will never be clashes...of course there will. Dogs still need to learn manners and how to live safely with humans.

Oh, that stuff. I agree. Dogs are not constantly fighting for dominance. I've been in several arguments over how a dog jumping on the bed is NOT trying to be king/queen of the household, and how stupid it is when people do constantly try to make sure their dogs are below them because a dog laying its head on your lap without permission must secretly be plotting to try to take over.

Once who's in charge is firmly established, it doesn't need to be seen as a constant battle.

I'm looking over at my girls laughing right now. They know who's boss around here, and when they jump on the bed, it is to snuggle, not to try to knock me down a few pegs.

Cats, on the other hand, think they're gods and are always plotting evil against us.


Ola, I understand what you're saying. Many, if not most or even all, words, have the ability to be misconstrued, and I think it's largely due to the rats out there who whip the hell out of dogs and talk about how they're so dominant. In it's truest sense, who's dominant is just who's alpha. Even among humans, we have our "pecking order" in the household, and it doesn't mean fear, being second class, nothing. Adults are dominant over children. Sometimes one adult is seen as the head of the household ultimately in charge That person is dominant, and it's not a position always taken by force.

Basically who is leader and boss needs to be established, whether you want to call that taking the dominant position or making sure a dog knows who its master is or what.

[nd_deadhead]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I much prefer to use the word "leadership" instead. This seems to get people thinking in a different way - about teaching the dog, setting clear expectations, looking at bad behaviour as confusion, not generalizing, or lack of exercise. Some say it's not a big difference, after all it's just a word, but in my experience it really does make a difference in the relationship you have with your dog.

What a terrific point! I have friends who had two Airedales who were definitely the king and queen of the castle, because the owners equated setting limits for the dogs as being mean. I think they were afraid that if they tried to discipline the dogs, the dogs wouldn't love them any more. (For the record, they had essentially the same approach with their kids - with similarly poor results). Consequently the dogs jumped on people, counter-surfed, barked constantly, soiled in the house, ate the furniture - they didn't stop being horrifically annoying until they got too overweight to have the energy or ability to be pests.

Interestingly, my Mom would visit them often, and insisted on polite behavior from the dogs. She told them to Sit until she had taken off her coat and shoes, then she would pet them. When she was done petting them she would say "That's enough", and they would wander off. She could even get them to stop barking incessantly! The owners were constantly amazed at the "miracles" my Mom could work with their dogs - but they never caught on to the fact that it was simple leadership. Of course the dogs ADORED my Mom, because they always knew exactly what was expected of them.

[betsyj]

The problem is that my older DD loves to play a bit more energetic with the puppy (is that ok? ), wrestling a bit and chasing through the apartment and the puppy obviously thinks he can do that with a toddler too.

Yup I would stop ALL rough play with this puppy. He needs to learn to be appropriate with your children and to me that does not include wrestling.

Have you considered having the puppy drag and leash and tethering him to a solid object when he gets too wound up? ALWAYS under supervision-NEVER leave a puppy leashed or tethered if you are not supervising.

Also, can your children begin teaching the puppy to remain calm as they approach? Tether the pup, have your children approach, and if the puppy tries to jump or mouth, have the children step away. This is very clear to the puppy-jump or mouth and people move away.

Another really excellent training book for puppies is My Smart Puppy by Sarah Wilson and Brian Kilcommins.

[HealingBeam]

Thanks for your recommendations.
I'm trying to set a calmer environment for the puppy (when DD is around... she can't wait to run around with the dog once we start to go outside and the dog is ready and old enough for that). I can see how much easier is for him when my toddler and I are at home alone with him.

I'm already teaching my DD how to handle him in a calmer, more apropriate way.

When he gets too excited he jumps on kids and bites them (not meaning to hurt them but it does hurt).. he constantly tries to steal socks from my toddler's feet, scratching him while trying.. .sometimes I feel I'm constantly saying NO or STOP.
I'm not sure if I mastered grabbing his bottom jaw. I don't know if I'm doing it correctly, I'm afraid I'll hurt him if I grab him too tight and the way I'm doing it now is not effective every time.

Also.. what does it mean when he runs in circles all over the room? He does that sometimes when I try to stop him biting my toddler's feet.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by HealingBeam

I'm not sure if I mastered grabbing his bottom jaw. I don't know if I'm doing it correctly, I'm afraid I'll hurt him if I grab him too tight and the way I'm doing it now is not effective every time.

Yeah, that definitely doesn't sound like a good thing to do - I wouldn't do it if I were you. For one thing, your kids will see you do it and they may try it themselves getting injured in the process.

[Labbemama]

My advice would be to tell the puppy leave it and separate him from your toddler if the pup is being too rough.

Also puppies need a certain amount of time so look for games he can play. Our pup gets pretty wild playing "tug." And at first couldn't differeniate between hands and the toy which I understand they outgrow...but OWIE.

[HealingBeam]

I feel totally incompetent to raise this pup. I knew it would be more difficult than last time when I had no children but this hard… I didn't expect it to be this hard.
Today was my first day that I lost my patience and yelled at him and resented him for his behavior.

So, here I am with more questions and a rant (I really need some reassurance)…

We don't have many socks, pants or shirts left without holes. He shows little interest in his toys and chewable balls I made him (out of old rags, filled with kibble) and adores everything else. I find myself constantly correcting him, redirecting him from stuff he's not allowed to chew, defending my children from his claws and teeth.
Shouldn't he get by now that he's not allowed jumping on children, biting them, scratching, … understanding what's there for him to chew on and what's not? Or am I expecting too much too soon?

I suspect he doesn't get enough playtime but we're trying our best as he's not fully vaccinated yet and we don't go out as much as we probably should but we do our best and play with him around the house (throwing balls and stuff). But as soon as someone approaches him, he tries to bite, and he bites really hard. When we try to correct him he gets even more aroused and jumps on us, biting, scratching… it gets really rough sometimes.
It seems from time to time that my toddler doesn't have any room left to play with his toys because the dog comes and jumps on him or tries to steal his toys.

I think it would be easier if we crate trained him but the crates cost like ¼ of my monthly salary so we didn't plan to buy one. (But if you all suggest it would be for the best, we will think about it some more)

And a rant… I can't get my almost 9 year old to act appropriately around the dog. She doesn't respect his down time (when he rests or sleeps), she usually excites him and than, after only a minute or two, decides not to play with him (partly because he bites, jumps and scratches) and we are left with excited dog.

Are we hopeless? I really like this pup and would like to raise him in a calm, well-trained, lovely dog he might be.

Oh.. and this...

My advice would be to tell the puppy leave it and separate him from your toddler if the pup is being too rough.

I do that, but then the puppy starts to jump and play even more excited, tries to bite in play, jumps on my toddler (he managed to scratch him on the face few times). He doesn't obey on first command but after a few times that I repeat him to stop/quit. Sometimes, I carry him to his spot because it's the only way to make him stop. Even then, sometimes he doesn't stay there but tries to get back and jump some more.