Problem that's not my problem, yet, it's my problem

[Momma2Gianna]

If this is in the wrong thread, Mods, please move it to the proper one....

I don't know if I'm posting this in the proper thread.

I am a "reformed disciplinarian". I used to be OK with spanking, (really, tapping at this age), "conventional" discipline methods, time outs, etc.

Background story:
I moved from CT to OR 3 years ago. My BFF from CT just moved to OR two months ago. She and her family of 4, (Her DH, DS who is 2.5, and her DD who is 1) moved into my 4 bedroom 3 bathroom house. The kids share a room (her kids share, mine has her own room) and obviously, her and her DH have their own room. The kids also use my "guest" bathroom, and she and her DH have their own bathroom and of course, I have all my own stuff in my master bedroom/bath, and my DD's stuff is in my room.

I stopped hitting my daughter when I was punishing her for hitting one of BFF's kids. I smacked her hand and said "We don't hit!" and immediately felt like a hypocritical butthole. Since then, I don't hit her. (I refer to this as my "duh" moment). I've started more redirection than anything, because I don't want to be the reason her little eyes well up with tears, and it goes from "I'm being punished" to "Mommy hurt me".

That being said:

My BFF uses conventional methods of disipline that make me VERY uncomfortable. She spanks, slaps, hits, yells, and time outs. She is overwhelmed with her two kids, just started working part time, her DH has yet to find a job out here and is coming off of working two jobs for the last two years to support them, so he may be taking the opportunity to NOT work for a little while (he certainly isn't looking hard). They have NEVER had money - and I mean NEVER. (She was 3 mos pregnant when they got married). It was all they could do to not lose the roof over their heads, so rather than be tossed into a shelter, they elected to move in with me, 3000 miles away. I know money issues weigh on her mind, I understand she is overwhelmed, scared, and homesick. (She used the same methods while she was in CT, so the homesickness thing and the move isn't the reason it started)

Anyway...Back to the issue at hand. I DON'T like that she uses these methods of discipline in front of Gianna. My BFF gets into her son's face and screams at him or slaps him, or drags him, (kicking and screaming) off to the time out corner. (She makes him face the wall standing in the corner) Gia sees all of this, and looks confused, frightened, and empathetic toward the other child, and comes to me immediately for reassurance. I don't like it - It's an emotion registering on her face I have never seen before or in any other situation. But, by the same token, I can't tell my BFF how to raise her children, because I would lose it if she tried to tell me how to raise mine. (And she uses the same methods of discipline on her daughter too...Who is 3 months younger than mine - i.e., to stop her DD from biting, she smacks the kid (gently, but still) in the mouth)

Also, on a seperate note, she is currently trying (but not very well or successfully) to potty train her son. But she does it totally wrong (not that I'm an expert....But I know it breaks one of the cardinal rules of potty training) She has lost it on her son multiple times literally screaming at him to "SH*T IN THE TOILET NOT YOUR DIAPER!! I AM SICK OF CHANGING DIAPERS!" It's to the point that at 2 years old, he lies to her about whether or not he has poop in his diaper because he knows she is gonna freak out on him. I know on more than one occasion, she has made him sit in his dirty diaper as punishment, and he routinely has rashes.

This stuff sounds borderline abusive to me, and my DH and I plan to foster since my body just isn't suited for another pregnancy. I'm terrified my neighbors are gonna hear my friend screaming at her kids and her kids crying in terror and call the police, or social services, and then HER problem will be hugely my problem since she is under my roof and I've watched it happen.

But I can't throw them out. They have nowhere to go, and can't go back to CT because there's no place for them there either.

And it's not ALL the time. The son stands in time out almost every day for something or another, and gets smacked at least once a day for something, but for the most part it's threats and screaming. She isn't trying hard to get him potty trained, but she's not coming from a place of wanting to teach him...It's after changing diapers times two kids for several months, she decides she's sick of it and doesn't wanna change diapers anymore. She yells at her son she's sick of changing him and that he needs to use the potty. It's very sporadic, not at all structured. She does cook meals for them, and does arts and crafts, brushes their teeth, reads them stories...She parks them in front of the TV a little too much for my taste, but to each his own.

So what do I do?

[Wooly]

Your priority is your family and most of all is your sweet dd. Look at her face next time it happens and decide if what she is witnessing is good enough for her , is that what you want her to accept as normal and act on later?
you did the hardest part already , you stopped the spanking yourself because it just felt WRONG. your daughter trusts you , she runs to you for reassurance when the stuff hits the fan with bff and her kids , she runs to you to make it STOP.
It is your HOME , your rules. It is going to be uncomfortable for you to approach your bff , but it's gotta be better to get the situation sorted than living with that icky feeling in the pit of your stomach everyday.
Explain as gently as you can that you stopped spanking your dd because you feel it is wrong for your family . Explain that she doesn't have to agree with you, each to their own but whilst she and her family is living in your HOME it needs to be a safe and happy place for every member of youir family , this means their is no yelling or spanking ( insert other unacceptable behaviours here) . Tell her you understand all the pressure she is under and will help her find alternatives to spanking which are ok in your home ( redirection etc). Just be honest and be gentle with her ( and mostly you) Good luck [/I]

[NiteNicole]

I think because they are in your home and your daughter is seeing all this, it would be just fine to say, "I love you and I'm trying to tell you how to parent, but need to ask you not to yell at your kids or hit them. You're scaring my daughter." That's the part that's about YOU.

I agree, her kids don't deserve that even as much as I have sympathy for the situation she's in. I'm sure she's stressed and on internal freak out a lot of the time and it's hard to be patient with two little ones, but sometimes you find that inside yourself and do your best.

If you start telling her how and why you deal with your daughter as you do, then it crosses the line to "my parenting is better than yours" and there are going to be some hard feelings on both sides. I would just find a calm moment and let her know your daughter is scared and you're going to have to ask her not to yell or hit in your home.

It also sounds like she needs a break - I don't know if it would help to find a very gentle potty learning book and say you've heard a lot of people have success with it or even suggest, wow, you have SO much going on, you're doing so much - potty training can always wait. Or find a mother's morning out program for her or something. Normally, I'd say it's not your job to do those things and it might be intrustive, but she is in your home with all this chaos so I think it's ok to pass along "I've heard about this" type info if she seems open to it.

[sebandg'smama]

Boundaries are ok. They are not telling your bff how to parent, just what you are willing to tolerate.

Your house, your rules.

btw she is emotionally abusing her ds.

Good luck with this,
Melanie

[MamaRuga]

I agree with the other posts that you can say something.

I wonder also, if she is in your house, if there might be a chance you could expose her indirectly to some other ideas. We just got the dvd by Alfie Kohn "Unconditional Parenting". I haven't watched it yet but saw some of the clips on YouTube and he was making some interesting points. Perhaps you could get something like that and just 'happen' to watch it while she is around.

Or maybe you could tell her that you are looking for new insights into how to handle discipline with your child and see if she wanted to join you in watching the DVD or listening to a CD. It could be framed more like she is supporting you in your search to parent in a more healthy way, but it might cause her to rethink what she is doing. Some parents have no idea there is another way since that is the way they were raised and saw their friends raised. If you could expose her to some other ways of looking at discipline in a non-confrontational way, it might give her the room to make changes without feeling criticized.

But I do agree with the other posters that it is your house and you and your family do not deserve to be around abuse like that.

[PoppyMama]

If she is a very mainstream parent and would find UP ridiculous you might want to start watching a lot of SuperNanny. Even if you don't agree with rampant time outs Super Nanny does have a big thing about smacking and yelling and sometimes parents who depend on hitting and yelling need the very structured discipline system in order to stop the yelling and hitting.

[prothyraia]

I would say something. I know it's a delicate situation, but if it were me I would feel like by not intervening I was teaching my children that the right thing to do when they see someone being cruel to another person is to turn a blind eye.

[Jackies Ladybug]

i would absolutely say something, she is in your house under your good grace, she can follow house rules.
i would just have a gentle sit down with her one morning(or whatever time she is usually least stressed out) and lay down that you really like her and want to maintain a good relationship so you would appreciate it if she could be respectful of some rules you have laid out.
post them as home rules somewhere like the kitchen as a constant reminder, just something simple like:

we dont yell
we dont hit
we show respect to all people
we love one another

good luck, i will agree though that she is absolutely being abusive to her children in the scenarios that you have laid out.
they may not have physical marks, but physical is usually the least painful type of abuse.

[AislinCarys]

I agree that if she is so overwhelmed, a SuperNanny type of approach might help her.

I don't advocate SuperNanny generally, but some of her techniques can be really helpful for a parent who keeps losing it. And it might give her children a more predictable day (and a more predictable mother).

I came to GD through SuperNanny. I never hit (but spanking or hitting was never ok while I was growing up, and I never saw anyone hit. I grew up in Sweden, btw ), but I found myself screaming and shouting more as the children I cared for were trying my patience. SuperNanny helped me be much more patient, and I learnt to give the children a more predictable day (not a schedule, but a clear structure of the things we do, like when we come home from kindy we go to the toilet, wash hands, get any homework out and put school bags and jackets away. Then we have afternoon tea and then we do homework. Or with younger children, after lunch we go to the toilet, wash hands and face and then pick a story to read in bed for their nap. The children learnt to expect a warning, i.e. "Please don't hit your brother again, or you have to go sit in time-out". I also used lots and lots of stickers, for positive things, like helping out and being very nice to each other. This was all to make all our day more pleasant, less fighting, screaming and tears. And it worked.

That said, I believe in GD. That is what we do. I think that is the best for children. It can however be really different for parents and caregivers. And I don't think a modified SuperNanny approach has to be abusive, I think it can work quite well.

In your home, your rules. However, I would allow things like time-out, in a calm way (no pulling or pushing child in there, a small child might be lifted there, after all, you are much bigger, and CAN safely remove a child from a situation). But no hitting and no screaming. And everyone in the house needs to address others in a respectful way (The difference between screaming abuse at the child for not behaving like you'd prefer, and saying calmly "I asked you not to hit your sister/break the books/scream. We don't hit/break things/scream. Now you need to sit in time-out for 2 minutes"). I know it can be argued that time-out is not respectful, but I think it can be a respectful compromise (not saying you should put your child in time-out, OP, I don't put mine). I just think gently using time-out is a lot more respectful than screaming - and sometimes the GD way may just be too hard. Ig it is too hard for the parent the screaming and hitting will resume.

[KristaDJ]

They are living in your home, you have ever right to tell her (gently) that you believe she is overwhelmed and is being too harsh and sometimes abusive to her children. You can NOT risk losing your children over this, no friend is worth that. She needs a good talking to, a kick in the butt, an eye opener. Sit down with her and explain how you view what she is doing and how it's effecting your daughter and her children. If she's really a good mom who's just stressed and doesn't know how to cope she will cry and be regretful and you can comfort her and help her. Most likely she is super stressed out by having her children "act up" in someone else's home and she wants you to see that she isn't going to "stand for that." She needs help and so do those kids.

[sebandg'smama]

Hi!
Just wondering how things are going in your home?

-Melanie