Mandatory circumcision and 1973 court case

[BlessedMommy2006]

I read somewhere that before a court case in 1973, many hospitals would not let parents leave until they circumcised all the baby boys.

Does anyone know where to read about this court case? I'm interested to learn more. (Also, interested to learn how any boys were left intact in those days!)

[Belle]

I would like to answer this but I'm pretty sure that the court case involved a religion that circumcises and we're not allowed to discuss that here.

[tennisdude23]

There was never such thing as mandatory circumcision. However, before the institutionalization of "informed consent" many circumcisions were automatic. So, if parents did not want their son circumcised, then they would have to make the hospital aware of their wishes.

[bandgeek]

I wouldn't be surprised if the hospitals told parents it was mandatory back then. It happened to me in *2005*. Thankfully I knew better. But it only takes one nurse telling an uninformed parent "We can't discharge you until he's been circumcised" and....bam!...you have "mandatory" circumcision.

My mom thought it was mandatory/necessary when my brother was born in 1973. And they didn't even do the circs in the hospital. They said to bring him to the pedi 2 days later because he needed to be circ'ed, so she did. She didn't know any better.

I was reading a parenting book from the 1950's I think and it said, "Your doctor will decide to circumcise your baby boy or not" or something to that effect.

That and "automatic" circs were evry common.

When all is said and done, it probably seemed mandatory and that you had no choice.

[Belle]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

There was never such thing as mandatory circumcision. However, before the institutionalization of "informed consent" many circumcisions were automatic. So, if parents did not want their son circumcised, then they would have to make the hospital aware of their wishes.

My MIL was under the impression that it was mandatory when she had dh in 1975. If she had known that she had a choice in the matter she wouldn't have consented.

[muttmom92]

I'm sure it was not legally mandated but from what I've heard from my aunt, it was pushed as mandatory. She told me about how she cried when they took her sons (1974 & 1976) for their circs. She didn't want it don't, but felt powerless. She was very happy when she found out that I was leaving DS intact and disappointed when her DS decided to circ his son.

[BlessedMommy2006]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

I wouldn't be surprised if the hospitals told parents it was mandatory back then. It happened to me in *2005*. Thankfully I knew better. But it only takes one nurse telling an uninformed parent "We can't discharge you until he's been circumcised" and....bam!...you have "mandatory" circumcision.

In 2005? What happened, if you don't mind my asking?

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

In 2005? What happened, if you don't mind my asking?

They asked and I said no. Seems like they asked a few times. Like each new shift. And one doc came in my room in the middle of the night and asked my MOM if he was supposed to be circ'ed. She said no, of course. We were there longer than we intended because of a massive snowstorm. It was an uncomplicated vaginal birth so I planned on leaving after 24 hours, but insurance would pay for 2 days, so I stayed while the weather calmed down. I was trying to get everything packed up and asked the nurse how our discharge was coming along. She said she'd check, then said, "Oh but wait, you can't be discharged until he's been circumcised". I just stared at her in shock for a second (hadn't I already told them like 5 times we weren't doing it!?) and then told her we weren't having it done. She looked at me like she was....repulsed? I don't know. She said, "You mean, like...never?" Yes, like "never". I think she said something like, "oh well, I GUESS that's ok". I don't know...I was seeing red by that point.

WTF? I've talked to a few nurses around here, one who works in that hospital and she said it's really not uncommon to not circ...not quite 50/50 but getting there.

I don't know, I guess most parents would realize, having had the option given to them, that it wasn't mandatory or necessary, but really, she said it in a way that a mama anxious to get her new baby home would go, "Ok, let's get it done then!"

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

They asked and I said no. Seems like they asked a few times. Like each new shift. And one doc came in my room in the middle of the night and asked my MOM if he was supposed to be circ'ed. She said no, of course. We were there longer than we intended because of a massive snowstorm. It was an uncomplicated vaginal birth so I planned on leaving after 24 hours, but insurance would pay for 2 days, so I stayed while the weather calmed down. I was trying to get everything packed up and asked the nurse how our discharge was coming along. She said she'd check, then said, "Oh but wait, you can't be discharged until he's been circumcised". I just stared at her in shock for a second (hadn't I already told them like 5 times we weren't doing it!?) and then told her we weren't having it done. She looked at me like she was....repulsed? I don't know. She said, "You mean, like...never?" Yes, like "never". I think she said something like, "oh well, I GUESS that's ok". I don't know...I was seeing red by that point.

WTF? I've talked to a few nurses around here, one who works in that hospital and she said it's really not uncommon to not circ...not quite 50/50 but getting there.

I don't know, I guess most parents would realize, having had the option given to them, that it wasn't mandatory or necessary, but really, she said it in a way that a mama anxious to get her new baby home would go, "Ok, let's get it done then!"

Was she an older nurse? And just out of curiosity what part of the country?

[pantufla]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

There was never such thing as mandatory circumcision. However, before the institutionalization of "informed consent" many circumcisions were automatic. So, if parents did not want their son circumcised, then they would have to make the hospital aware of their wishes.

This is what happened to my DH. MIL said "they came and took the baby and brought him back like that." She said my FIL said, "What did you let them do that for?!" And she responded, "They never asked. They didn't tell me they were going to!" Whether or not they did (her memory is somewhat... fluid) English is not her native language and there was no one in the hospital to translate for her.

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

Was she an older nurse? And just out of curiosity what part of the country?

Maybe 50's. Ohio. Like I said, the nurses around here said it's not uncommon and is going lower all the time. I CAN'T have been the only parent that went through there who declined. I think she had some weird agenda and thought if she made me feel like a freak, I would go ahead and let them. Little did she know, I enjoy being the odd one.

Now the doctor that came in my room in the middle of the night and asked my mom...that REALLY ticks me off. I have no doubt in my mind he would have taken him if my mom said yes. Maybe he could have waken me and said, "I need you to sign this" and just handed me a paper and a pen, and anyone exhausted and passed out after childbirth might have done it without realizing what it was. I was a little hyper viligant though, so probably not ME, but someone else might have.

Who the hell drags a baby out of his bed in the middle of the night and cuts on him!? Isn't is bad enough in the middle of the day? (of course, maybe a baby doesn't know much about day from night, but it seems especially cruel to me)

[DocsNemesis]

In 1981 my ex was circ'd after his mom had repeatedly said she wasn't getting it done. She at some point thinks she signed the consent without meaning to (she was drugged up and handed a big packet of papers) but she never actually checked into it.

Anyway, even IF she did sign the consent, the doctor still obviously knew that she hadn't changed her mind. The doc sent a nurse to get the baby, saying that they just needed to take him for a bath in the nursery. She handed him over and she heard, within a few minutes, him screaming like he was dying a few minutes later. He was brought back after all of 10 minutes, the nurse handed her the circ care pamphlet and walked back out.

[BlessedMommy2006]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

They asked and I said no. Seems like they asked a few times. Like each new shift. And one doc came in my room in the middle of the night and asked my MOM if he was supposed to be circ'ed. She said no, of course. We were there longer than we intended because of a massive snowstorm. It was an uncomplicated vaginal birth so I planned on leaving after 24 hours, but insurance would pay for 2 days, so I stayed while the weather calmed down. I was trying to get everything packed up and asked the nurse how our discharge was coming along. She said she'd check, then said, "Oh but wait, you can't be discharged until he's been circumcised". I just stared at her in shock for a second (hadn't I already told them like 5 times we weren't doing it!?) and then told her we weren't having it done. She looked at me like she was....repulsed? I don't know. She said, "You mean, like...never?" Yes, like "never". I think she said something like, "oh well, I GUESS that's ok". I don't know...I was seeing red by that point.

WTF? I've talked to a few nurses around here, one who works in that hospital and she said it's really not uncommon to not circ...not quite 50/50 but getting there.

I don't know, I guess most parents would realize, having had the option given to them, that it wasn't mandatory or necessary, but really, she said it in a way that a mama anxious to get her new baby home would go, "Ok, let's get it done then!"

Wow, that is crazy the lengths that they would go to to solicit unnecessary surgery.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

Maybe 50's. Ohio. Like I said, the nurses around here said it's not uncommon and is going lower all the time. I CAN'T have been the only parent that went through there who declined. I think she had some weird agenda and thought if she made me feel like a freak, I would go ahead and let them. Little did she know, I enjoy being the odd one.

Wow, not uncommon in Ohio. Now that's progress. See a silver lining in every cloud.

[GoodMomma]

This is about 20 years earlier but my Grandma had her kids in the 50s (except for a late kid in the early 70s) and when her and I had talked about this at one time she says she doesn't even remember them asking. It was just done and that was it. Pretty crazy!

[2lilsweetfoxes]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

They asked and I said no. Seems like they asked a few times. Like each new shift. And one doc came in my room in the middle of the night and asked my MOM if he was supposed to be circ'ed. She said no, of course. We were there longer than we intended because of a massive snowstorm. It was an uncomplicated vaginal birth so I planned on leaving after 24 hours, but insurance would pay for 2 days, so I stayed while the weather calmed down. I was trying to get everything packed up and asked the nurse how our discharge was coming along. She said she'd check, then said, "Oh but wait, you can't be discharged until he's been circumcised". I just stared at her in shock for a second (hadn't I already told them like 5 times we weren't doing it!?) and then told her we weren't having it done. She looked at me like she was....repulsed? I don't know. She said, "You mean, like...never?" Yes, like "never". I think she said something like, "oh well, I GUESS that's ok". I don't know...I was seeing red by that point.

WTF? I've talked to a few nurses around here, one who works in that hospital and she said it's really not uncommon to not circ...not quite 50/50 but getting there.

I don't know, I guess most parents would realize, having had the option given to them, that it wasn't mandatory or necessary, but really, she said it in a way that a mama anxious to get her new baby home would go, "Ok, let's get it done then!"

I had a semi-similar experience when ds was born in 2003 (in a military teaching hospital in Texas). I had him on a Sunday afternoon and we were about to leave early Monday evening. The nurse checking us out was all apologetic saying, "I'm so sorry, Mrs. X, but the doctor who does the circumcisions has left for the day. You may either stay tonight and leave tomorrow after it has been done or we can set up an appointment for you to bring him back." Standing at her computer, all ready to either not discharge me or to set the appointment. I just told her "Thank you, but no." (At the time, I was still undecided--so I never got him circ'd--and I guess it wasn't that important to DH, because I guess he could have circ'd him while I was in Korea or something).

Some young private or private's wife might have caved and thought it had to be done. No choice in the matter other than just whether or not to stay or to return.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

Wow, that is crazy the lengths that they would go to to solicit unnecessary surgery.

Foreskins are a billion-dollar-per-year industry. The tissue goes in cosmetics, is used for skin grafts, breathable bandages, and insulin production.

[serendipity22]

I read somewhere that before a court case in 1973, many hospitals would not let parents leave until they circumcised all the baby boys.

I read something like that on the History of Circumcision website
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...d=91&Itemid=52

The history makes good reading.

Forget which section it was in though.

[hakunangovi]

[QUOTE=bandgeek;14577929]T And one doc came in my room in the middle of the night and asked my MOM if he was supposed to be circ'ed.

This is absolutely disgusting conduct.

[Noelle C.]

Are doctors and nurses even legally allowed to ask straight out anymore like this? I thought I heard that at least some states banned them from doing more than offering information, but not asking outright if you want it done. "Here's some information in case you're considering it," versus, "So are you going to cut up, I mean, circ your baby?"