DH offended....

[Ligmom]

Hi,
Yesterday I was talking to my dh about a friend of ours who is pg--telling him that if she has a boy (this would be her second ds) he will be left intact even though her oldest ds is circ'd. I was very pleased with this b/c at the beginning of her pregnancy she wasn't sure, and she and I had several conversations about it and my experience with this situation. DH interrupted me as I was telling him about this and said, "Please don't use that term." I asked what term, and he said "Intact...it makes it sound like something is missing " He wasn't angry and of course he said it wasn't about him but our 2 oldest dss who are circ'd. It just made me so sad. I want to be able to speak freely @ circing, and I think it is important that we don't gloss over what trauma it really is. DH seems to think it will make our older boys feel insecure if we do though....
And I do think that even though dh denies it -- intact upsets him b/c he is circd and it makes him consider what that means for him. That someone cut off part of his body without his consent.

I am so sad about this

[mattemma04]

//

[Sarah]

Leigh-ann... have you asked him what term he would prefer that you use? If you have an intact son, it would seem that being able to use a word, some word, would be something you would need. I don't mean in a confrontational way, but I think you have to ask him to at least give you a word if he is going to take them away...and uncircumcised is not going to cut it.

I'll tell you what word *I* object to.... makes my blood boil...

...intacted.

Love Sarah

[Tinijocaro]

sarh- "intacted" bugs the you-know-what out of me too. What the heck does that mean?

I personally wouldn't use the term intact around my circ'd dh. He isn't ready to deal with what was done to him. Although he supports our decision to not circ our sons, he is not at all comfortable discussing circ as it relates to him. I just say circ'd or not circ'd.

Jackie

[Ligmom]

Thanks for responding...I appreciate your thoughts!

I have never heard the term "intacted" before--what IS it supposed to mean?

I don't think dh meant to be forceful or even to be pro-circ in any way--in fact, he is adamently opposed to circumcision now that we have researched it thouroughly. And yes, our youngest son is intact, as would be any future sons we may be blessed with. But dh feels that intact implies that our oldest two have "something wrong with them"...then he said something about there not being anything wrong with his penis and not wanting our sons to feel there is anything wrong with theirs. He says he prefers the term uncircumcised. I feel this conveys that either way (circd or intact) is the same and equal and it's not--one is whole and the other isn't. I don't know...I get so p!ssed off when I think of what happened to him, and what I unknowingly perpetuated upon my oldest two sons. It just seems that if we don't begin to call circumcision what it is, all the euphamisms will just sweep this issue under the rug.

Thanks again for posting and sharing your thoughts

[Sarah]

It seems so unusual a word, I mean, it's not a word... but it shows up all the time of circumcision debate boards. Sometimes with a dash intact-ed ... and it's is so consistent- it's almost like there is a boogey in some offbrand of spellchecker that does that to people.

It seems to be something that really adamant pro-circumcision people do in an effort to make a point that leaving a child with a whole penis is like something you do TO them... you force them to be intact... you intact them... they are intacted ... it seems mostly to be a "fun to be dumb" put-on in order to annoy the rest of us. Just for flamebaiting.

Sadly, lots of people never use these words at all, so when they see intacted used by some people, they figure that's how you write it... and it's started. I have corrected a few people, but usually it feels so rude to do that when you know they don't mean any harm by it- but it hurts none the less to see someone adopt some language that they don't realise originated with the intention to insult. I have seen moms refer to their own sons as intacted... if you run a google search for intacted- you will see it misused in many ways... it must just be one of those Andy Rooney words.

Love Sarah

[mattemma04]

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[Frankly Speaking]

Every salesman and politician knows that by carefully selecting and using words, you can guide your listener into a false understanding of the issue. Uncircumcised and uncut are just a couple of the words used to misconsture the true facts. Uncircumcised and uncut send the message that the man missed out on getting what he should have recieved, that he was denied what all others recieved, that he was short changed. This is denial by the parents, the man and all others who have had a hand in the genital reduction of a child. By putting it back on the victim, it lets them off scott free.

Your husband's discomfort with the word "intact" shows that he has not yet delt with what happened to him. In his subconscious, he knows the truth. However, his conscious and defensive mind forces him to deny it. The word "intact" is offensive to him because it forces him to confront what he already knows and he wants to avoid that internal confrontation. It's painful to him on many levels. It's painful to know that he could have been more sexually. It's painful that the most provate and intimate part of his body was violated and that he had no say in the matter. It's painful that he carries the mark of this violation on his body for life and it's painful that his very own mother allowed and even actively participated in this violation.

The pro-circumcisionists are well known to tell men that are not happy with their circumcisions that they "have issues" and should get psychological counseling to work through these issues. However, on deeper inspection of the issue, it becomes abundantly clear where the issues are and they certainly are not with the men who are unhappy with the violation of what should have been the most private and sacred parts of their body.




Frank

[jazzymom1999]

But this isn't just about DH's need to find a way to deal with what was done with him. It will be a very awkward situation once your ds's are older and understand more of what was done to them. You don't want to make them feel self-conscious about it, at least no more than is already going to come from this situation. I am sure they will see each other and notice the differences themselves.

I wonder if there is a book out there on dealing with sons that are different? Maybe Dr. Fleiss has a delicate way to address it.

I am very proud of you for making the tough decision in the first place, and I am sure you will find a gently way to discuss it.

Kimberly

[jazzymom1999]

By the way, what exactly did you say that finally convinced her? I have never had any luck changing people's minds, even the non-Jewish friends.

Although I have not had any personal experience with it either. We Uncut my son. No, I am just kidding. :P He is of course intact as nature intended!

Great job talking to your friend though! At least some of us are making a dent!

Kimberly