Switching out of high math

[lindberg99]

My DD is 11 and tested into pre-algebra this year (6th grade). This class is offered at the middle school so she has to go there at 7:30 and then she is bussed to her elem. school where she stays until 3:30. (It starts at 9:00 for everyone else.)

She started out talking about the class a lot but now doesn't seem to enjoy it. Her grades are also going down, she got a D on a quiz and a C on her second test and will get a B overall for the quarter I think. Obviously a B is not a horrible grade but I'm just kind of worried that the whole thing is sort of too much for her. She has to get up really early and then is at school a pretty long day. I've had to meet her when she gets to the elem school a couple times and she just looks so tired. She has said a couple times that she wants to quit the class and go back to regular 6th grade math.

I'm kind of wondering if we should just pull her out of it. I was kind of hesitant to have her do this class in the first place (which I posted about here I think) but she wanted to try it. But now I feel like if we move her, it's sending a message of "If you get a B, you need to give up and do something easier." I'm going to set up a meeting with her teacher about it, but just wondering if anyone has any opinions.

[ollyoxenfree]

It sounds like you need a little more information to sort out what's going on.

How does she feel about the regular math? Has she taken a look at what her friends/classmates are working on? Would it be boring for her? Is there any chance she can do the pre-algebra work in the regular class, or will the teacher/school insist she has to attend the 7:30 a.m. class for that work?

Can you sort out the reason for the grade decline? A couple of wonky test results can happen to anyone. Is she not understanding the lessons, too tired to do homework so she's unable to consolidate what she learns, not understanding this teacher or the test instructions, or is the work really too advanced for her? Is the grade decline in math only, or is it more general?

If you decide to pull her out, you can focus on the scheduling issue - the inconvenience and fatiguing effect of the early start - rather than grades. 7:30 a.m. is a brutal time to start class.

[lindberg99]

Thanks for the nice reply!

There are only 9 - 6th graders in the district doing the pre-algebra class, which is why they offered it at the middle school. They don't have enough kids to offer it at each elementary school. She does get time to work on homework during the regular 6th grade math time but she still need to go at 7:30 to meet with the teacher.

Her grades have only dropped in pre-algebra and like I said, she's got a B, it's not like she went from an A to a D or F. It started around the time she started swim team this month. So it could be from tiredness due to swimming, but her other grades haven't changed. It might just be a coincidence that it started around the same time as swimming because of course the material is getting more challenging too.

I'm going to talk with my DH and DD tonight and hopefully can get a time to see the teacher this week too. I like your advice about focusing on the scheduling issue. My DD is a perfectionist and I hate for her to think it's okay to quit something (if that's what we decide) because she's not perfect in it, you know?

[SuzyLee]

I was in pre-algebra in 6th grade, and I was lucky that we had a full class doing it together, so a much better support system than your daughter has. It is a big challenge for a 6th grader, which isn't a bad thing- if your daughter tested into the class I would tend to think she wasn't being challenged much in regular math.

My inclination would be that the B and a few bad test grades isn't a big deal. She may be facing difficult coursework for the first time and it isn't that odd that she would struggle a bit to get used to that. My concern would be the tiredness.

I would sugegst some kind of compromise with the math teacher. Perhaps she can emet with the teacher 3 times a week instead of every day. Are you or your H capable of tutoring her a bit at home a few days a week to make up for that? Or hire a high school student to work with her a few days a week after school on days she doesn't meet with the teacher.

How many days a week does she have swimming? When I was that age I think I had swimming every day of the week- perhaps you can cut that down (I know it is hard to go against the swim coaches who are saying she needs to be there every day, trust me I know, LOL).

If you decide to pull her back, it isn't a big deal. I stayed in advanced math through HS and my junior year I got totally overwhelmed by calculus, so I took the 2nd semester off and took a speech class instead. The next year I did calc again and did great- it really clicked. She can probably work with the regular 6th grade math teacher to do a little advanced stuff if that is the best solution for your family.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by lindberg99

Thanks for the nice reply!

There are only 9 - 6th graders in the district doing the pre-algebra class, which is why they offered it at the middle school. They don't have enough kids to offer it at each elementary school. She does get time to work on homework during the regular 6th grade math time but she still need to go at 7:30 to meet with the teacher.

Her grades have only dropped in pre-algebra and like I said, she's got a B, it's not like she went from an A to a D or F. It started around the time she started swim team this month. So it could be from tiredness due to swimming, but her other grades haven't changed. It might just be a coincidence that it started around the same time as swimming because of course the material is getting more challenging too.

I'm going to talk with my DH and DD tonight and hopefully can get a time to see the teacher this week too. I like your advice about focusing on the scheduling issue. My DD is a perfectionist and I hate for her to think it's okay to quit something (if that's what we decide) because she's not perfect in it, you know?

I think I'd leave aside the grades, and focus on whether this is the right class for her at this time.

If she isn't enthusiastic about it, if it conflicts with her other activities or makes it more stressful to organize her schedule (I know swimmers have very busy lives) etc. - those are the things that I'd base the decision on.

If she had excellent grades, but was unhappy, you'd probably still try to make a change, right? I'd praise her willingness to try something new, and the effort it takes to switch into a new class with unknown classmates and a different teacher.

If she chooses to return to the regular class, I'd frame it as a successful step in learning how to take a chance, rather than as a failure in pre-algebra. How is she going to know what learning environment suits her, and fits in with her current lifestyle (swimming, other extracurriculars), if she doesn't try a few different things.

Best of luck to you and her!

[Linda on the move]

Swimming is truly exhausting at first. If this is a new situation directly related to swimming, I'd give it time. Let her adjust.

When she says she wants to quit the class, it is just the general sort of whining most of us do from time to time that doesn't mean anything, or is she truly maxed out?

Does she want to quit because she got a bad grade? If so, I'd make her stick it out. Bright kids need to learn to stick with difficult things even if they can't get As in them, or else they will never learn to reach their potential. It's not about whether or not she needs to take this level of math right now, it's about whether or not she learns to stick with something difficult when she does her best and doesn't get an A.

Sometimes it's hard to tell if something is truly overwhelming for our kids, or if it a chance for them to really work at something and become a stronger person for the effort. Just because something is difficult for our kids, it doesn't mean that we should pull them. Sometimes it gives us the chance to believe in them.

[bobandjess99]

I think, although it might be hard, you should try to look at teh bigger picture for her. As her mother, certainly you have an idea of who she is and where her lifepath might take her. I know at my school, where I also was on the 1 special class of advanced math, that was the ONLY way to be in the advanced math track for later on, which culminated in calculus as a HS senior. If you did not start that track at 6th grade, you were not able to do that. And since I ended up receiving 21 college credits for the work i did in high school because of the AP tests I passed, it really worked out in the end for me to have done that.
do you think she will be interested in staying i the advanced track? Do you see college in her future? Do you see a math or science based career interest for her?
If oyu do, then it might be worth it for her to try and continue. If you don't, then it might not be worth it.
Or, your school might be set up differently. Woudl dropping out of this class now limit opportunities later? Is there a different sequence of coursework for the kids who are in 6th garde prealgebra versus waiting until next year? Or does it just leave her with an empty period later on when she has taken all the math the school has to offer?

I'm personally not a morning person, and so ANYhting i do at 7:30 is not my best work, lol. Plus with a full school day and extracurriculars on top of it...it does sound like a lot. I remember being literally exhasuted after swimming practice. I mean - i literally felt the energy required of me to BREATHE I was so tired.
What does she say?

[mom2ponygirl]

I think the swimming may be a bigger factor than you think. It is very exhausting. I was a nationally ranked swimmer in jr. high/high school. However, I took a year off before college. When I started back swimming in college that first semester it was all I could do to get through morning practice, eat breakfast, fall back asleep until afternoon practice, eat and sleep again! Needless to say, it wasn't a great start to not actually attend class. LOL Anyway, I adjusted and got to class (and caught up on class work).

You might give it a couple more weeks and really work on some catch up sleep on the weekends for a little while. I would talk to her about how the crazy schedule may just be too much right now. Let her know she may still adjust, but you are willing to work on getting her out of it if she doesn't.

[ecoteat]

If your family decides to pull out of the class, don't do it because of grades. But do it if you all feel like it is just too much for her to handle right now. It sounds like if her other classes aren't struggling and she's still adjusting to fitting swimming into her schedule that it's jsut a matter of getting used to the whole routine.

I'm a middle school teacher and I know this can be a very challenging age for kids to stay organized and not get swamped under increased expectations. But it sounds like your dd is managing to keep a lot pretty well balanced so far.

[Geofizz]

I did pre-algebra at the middle school when I was in 6th grade as well -- one of two students in the district.

I also started off not quite at the solid A that I was used to. In short, it was my first experience when I had to work at something to learn it. I learned how to study. I learned how to admit I wasn't quite grasping it and ask for help outside of class. I was a kind of sloppy kid, and I had a strict teacher who wanted things just so. It was hard.

By the end of the year, though, I'd learned a lot more than pre-algebra. If your kid wants to continue, I wouldn't pull out, but maybe talk to the teacher and figure out a plan to work at home and together with the teacher to excel.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

Bright kids need to learn to stick with difficult things even if they can't get As in them, or else they will never learn to reach their potential.

Can she take a nap during math time in her 6th grade class?

[lindberg99]

Oh, it's definitely not a grade issue. It's the schedule issue. I have to say when they sent the letter home about this, my first thought was "That's not something I would want my child to do." But we talked about it and agreed to give it a try. She has to get up early, go to the middle school, then take a bus back to the elementary school. Then during the regular math time, she can't take a nap (I wish she could or I wish she could come home but the school didn't like that idea) but can finish up her homework.

Conferences are on November 9 so we're going to talk to the teacher about it then. I'm sure she can do the work and I'm afraid the regular math wouldn't be much of a challenge at all for her. I just wish they had a different way to offer this class though. I guess that's my biggest issue and not much to do about it!

Maybe things will get better after the time change. It's so DARK in the morning now!

[sapphire_chan]

7:30 is actually pretty early to be functional as a preteen. My guess is that it's the class time that's messing things up. Maybe a local community college has a pre-algebra class in the evening she could take?

Really, though, even if she drops this class, she'll have no problems taking algebra since she's got the basic concepts down. My first day in algebra was so scary because I mistook a "what do you know?" worksheet for something I should be able to do already and was like "WHAT IS X????"

[TiredX2]

For a lot of people, pre-algebra seems to be a "filler" year. Would they be willing to test her at the end of the year to see if she is ready for algebra even if she doesn't take the year of pre-algebra? Could you work with her soem at home and have her not do pre-algebra?

7:30-3:30 seems like a REALLY long day to me! I'd be tired at that age too. If she did the 6th grade math would she have homework every night (which she is currently able to do during the 6th grade math time). If so, I would definately point that out to her.

[lindberg99]

I talked to the teacher today and she really thinks that DD kind of stressed out because she was not getting perfect scores anymore. The teacher pointed out that DD did not have any trouble with the early time, etc. until she hit a portion where she did not understand everything perfectly the first time. Also, the bad quiz scores weren't from her not understanding the concepts, but from making a few simple errors. She also said that DD has seemed much happier in class last week and this week. So we both came to the conclusion that it is more of a stress of being challenged, probably for the first time, in math.

So we're going to leave her in it for the time being. I really don't want her to feel like she can quit something just because she had a few bad quiz scores.

[ollyoxenfree]

Thanks for the update. It's good to hear that the teacher is aware and has some helpful insight. It's also good to hear that your DD is happier this week. Being challenged is a good thing. It sounds like she's rising to the challenge and stretching herself in new ways.