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Chicken pox in dd's school, she *may* have it, should I send her in the am? what about ToT? - Page 7

post #121 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Back in the days before vaccines, you know what people did with kids who had "childhood illnesses?"

They kept them home, in bed, for the entire course of the illness. Because that was what you did.

When all those diseases were in circulation, people KNEW they could be serious. They didn't mess around, they didn't send them to school, they didn't take them grocery shopping, they didn't take them to Halloween parties, and they didn't take them door to door around the entire neighborhood.

They just didn't. Sick children were kept at home. In fact, in many municipalities, sick children were officially put under quarantine by local public health officials. My grandfather was a public health agent in the days before (most) vaccines and before antibiotics. One of his jobs was to go to the houses of people with certain illnesses and post the big, official, QUARANTINE signs on their doors.

If you're not going to vaccinate, if that is the world you want, then you need to LIVE IN THAT WORLD. That world where those diseases are recognized as commonplace BUT potentially serious to certain people, and where sick children are kept home and treated as sick, to help their bodies recover.
Yes, yes, yes. Thank you.
post #122 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Me too. Like I've said above, I think this attitude of taking all these things so lightly is something that has grown up since widespread vaccination and antibiotics. We all think diseases must be no big deal for everyone, MOSTLY because most of us have not had most of them, and assume that if we get them, complications are all easy to deal with using modern drugs.

I'm a big fan of modern medicine, but I'm not going to assume that the killers and maimers of the past are now "No biggie."
I think it's best and polite for people to stay home when they're sick. Guy keeps coming in to DHs office with high fevers, and keeps being sent home (where he is told he can work from home and still be paid, so he's not doing it bc of his employer). But I think you're confusing chicken pox with illnesses that were once quarrantined for. CP is not one of them.

Dozens of first-world countries, like the UK, don't routinely vaccinate against it because it's considered such a mild illness, and because they'd like people to have decent immunity instead of worthless vax immunity that has be boostered for the rest of your life. Many countries only vax immune-suppressed and adult health care workers.

Because chicken pox, is NOT, and has never been, "a killer." Yes, once in a very very great while, someone has died "of chicken pox." Same could be said of hangnails. People don't, and didn't, get quarrantined for CP. They don't even get quarrantined coming off of an airplane with it from the U.S. to Denmark. I saw that in 2004, clearly CP, the mother said that to the agent, no problem. They lived in Denmark, flew to the US, 2 days later girl came down with CP. They didn't "expose" her to it, it just circulates there. 3 days later, they flew home.

That said, it is polite not to expose others to CP unknowingly, just like for colds, flu, stomac h flu, etc. I would not personally have taken a CP kid on a plane. But it's not quarrantinable.
post #123 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post
I'm going to presume that you're young enough not have had CP as a child (early 20s must be, I guess, since my 26 year old brother never had a CP vax and my mom was vax-happy), and live in the US.

Dozens of first-world countries, like the UK, don't routinely vaccinate against it because it's considered such a mild illness, and because they'd like people to have decent immunity instead of worthless vax immunity that has be boostered for the rest of your life. Many countries only vax immune-suppressed and adult health care workers.

Because chicken pox, is NOT, and has never been, "a killer." Yes, once in a very very great while, someone has died "of chicken pox." Same could be said of hangnails. People don't, and didn't, get quarrantined for CP. They don't even get quarrantined coming off of an airplane with it from the U.S. to Denmark. I saw that in 2004, clearly CP, the mother said that to the agent, no problem. They lived in Denmark, flew to the US, 2 days later girl came down with CP. They didn't "expose" her to it, it just circulates there. 3 days later, they flew home. I think you're confusing CP with m easles or something else if you're talking of quarrantines.

That said, it is polite not to expose others to CP unknowingly, just like for colds, flu, stomac h flu, etc. I would not personally have taken a CP kid on a plane. But it's not quarrantinable.


Hey MomtoS, where do you live? Because if neighbors think you shouldn't stress about taking her out, I'm thinking you're probably not in the US?
Well, I am old enough (and did) have CP. And when I had it, everyone just knew that when your kid had it, you stayed at home. There was no question in anyone's mind about taking them TOT or going to gymnastics, you just stayed at home. My mom had to stay at home for months when my older siblings and I had it.

ETA: Before the CP vaccine, on average 100 children died each year in the USA of chicken pox. That isn't a lot, but I'm sure it was devastating for the parent's of those children.
post #124 of 156
nevermind
post #125 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
Well, I am old enough (and did) have CP. And when I had it, everyone just knew that when your kid had it, you stayed at home. There was no question in anyone's mind about taking them TOT or going to gymnastics, you just stayed at home.
I had chickenpox, and ds1 has had chickenpox. Everyone did assume a kid with chickenpox would stay home (aside from pox parties) - because everyone assumed the kid would be far too miserable to go out. I don't ever remember anyone worrying about it being contagious. It was just accepted that kids would get chickenpox at some point.

We have more knowledge about people being immune compromised now (largely because of the internet, I suspect), and that's definitely a valid factor. But, I never knew anybody who considered chickenpox something that required a quarantine.

Quote:
ETA: Before the CP vaccine, on average 100 children died each year in the USA of chicken pox. That isn't a lot, but I'm sure it was devastating for the parent's of those children.
What are the numbers now? Chickenpox wasn't on the "required" schedule in Canada when I had dd1. I don't think it was on the schedule when I had ds2, but it was added around that time. Since there are still lots of kids in the standard age-range for chickenpox, I really doubt if we know how many deaths have potentially been avoided.
post #126 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
Well, I am old enough (and did) have CP. And when I had it, everyone just knew that when your kid had it, you stayed at home. There was no question in anyone's mind about taking them TOT or going to gymnastics, you just stayed at home. My mom had to stay at home for months when my older siblings and I had it.

ETA: Before the CP vaccine, on average 100 children died each year in the USA of chicken pox. That isn't a lot, but I'm sure it was devastating for the parent's of those children.
And how many do you think die of infections in minor playground wounds? Of basic colds and complications of them? I bet it's a lot lot higher. Regular flu kills far more children than that a year. CP is not a killer any more than any of the other illnesses I listed- cold, stomach flu, run-of-the-mill kid illnesses.

It's an illness, spreading it is not a sociable thing to do, and parents of children who die are devastated no matter what they died of. That's not what I said you're incorrect about. CP is not, and has never been, a quarrantinable illness, which is what I quibble with in your statements.
post #127 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by momtoS View Post
We have been invited to trick or treat a few people houses that are okay with it. Or have chicken pox themselves.
Yay! I am so glad you found a solution. Have fun tonight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post
It's an illness, spreading it is not a sociable thing to do, and parents of children who die are devastated no matter what they died of. That's not what I said you're incorrect about. CP is not, and has never been, a quarrantinable illness, which is what I quibble with in your statements.
I'm pretty sure that in the US CP was removed from the executive order of quarantinable illnesses be Reagan in the 80's. It was part of a revision the CDC requested to include some new haemorrhagic fevers.
post #128 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post
And how many do you think die of infections in minor playground wounds? Of basic colds and complications of them? I bet it's a lot lot higher. Regular flu kills far more children than that a year. CP is not a killer any more than any of the other illnesses I listed- cold, stomach flu, run-of-the-mill kid illnesses.

It's an illness, spreading it is not a sociable thing to do, and parents of children who die are devastated no matter what they died of. That's not what I said you're incorrect about. CP is not, and has never been, a quarrantinable illness, which is what I quibble with in your statements.
Actually, read upthread. Yes, CP has been a quarantinable illness. It was one of the quarantinable illnesses in Illinois, for a specific example. I posted a link to a google books record of 1915 public health laws.

I got CP in 1976, during the Bicentennial celebrations. My school planned a huge pageant, and I had a special outfit, and then I got CP. I was over it, every pox was scabbed over and most were off, and my mom had to get the doctor to convince the principal of my school to let me back in with three scabs still on my face so I could participate, because the policy was "smooth skin to return to school" and they were hardcore about it.
post #129 of 156
I still can not for the life of me understand how anyone can possibly argue that it is OK to bring an infectious kid with chicken pox to school, trick-or-treating, or any other place.

It has nothing to due with how nasty of an illness it is. It has nothing to do with people's vax status. It does not even have anything to do with other people's immune system. It's just not a thoughtful, caring thing to do to the sick child and the rest of the community.

If your kid is sick, keep him/her home.
post #130 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbieB View Post
If your kid is sick, keep him/her home.


I ran a new mother's support group for many years in Atlanta. New mothers sometimes brought their sick babies to group because they were so desperate to see other moms. Near riots would ensue when the mom of the sick baby would say..."so and so is sick today so we won't share toys". Sigh... and I as the "leader/facilitator" would have to ask them to leave. Come back when baby is well. Please join us when both of you are well.
post #131 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Actually, read upthread. Yes, CP has been a quarantinable illness. It was one of the quarantinable illnesses in Illinois, for a specific example. I posted a link to a google books record of 1915 public health laws.
Huh. I honestly didn't think there had ever been a quarantine for CP. I'm surprised.
post #132 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Actually, read upthread. Yes, CP has been a quarantinable illness. It was one of the quarantinable illnesses in Illinois, for a specific example. I posted a link to a google books record of 1915 public health laws.

I got CP in 1976, during the Bicentennial celebrations. My school planned a huge pageant, and I had a special outfit, and then I got CP. I was over it, every pox was scabbed over and most were off, and my mom had to get the doctor to convince the principal of my school to let me back in with three scabs still on my face so I could participate, because the policy was "smooth skin to return to school" and they were hardcore about it.
That is interesting. When it went around when I was in the 7-8th grade everyone else in my class and the most of the school had it as well and we all went back to school still very scabby. I remember it well because I got called athletes foot face by one of the boys who had just as many scabs as me

It just wasnt a big deal at all. I missed no school over it because mine developed during Christmas vacation. But the ones that did have it during regular school time only missed a few days to a week.

As for keeping a sibling home who was showing no symptoms no way could I do that with dd because of the very stricked attendance rules at the school 12 days is all they can miss unexcused or not or they fail. There is an appeals thing you can do but from what I have heard they usually refuse to back down.
post #133 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
HEre's an interesting historical document:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0Og...age&q=&f=false

IT's a book of public health laws passed in the US by the states during 1915.

Flipping through it, I see state after state law requiring quarantine for measles, mumps, diptheria, chicken pox.

Check out page 188 and following. The state of Illinois required immediate reporting to the local health authorities of all cases of chicken pox. Placards were then affixed to each outside entrance of the house, 10x15 inches, declaring that there was pox within. The affected child was confined to that building for 2 weeks, or until skin was smooth. All other children in the family were confined to that building for 2 weeks from date of last exposure.

Quarantine for whooping cough was EIGHT weeks from first "whoop." Other children who had not had whooping cough were excluded from school and supposed to be kept home for 2 weeks.

Measles patients were quarantined for 14 days from the beginning of the disease, and were excluded from school for 3 weeks from the onset of disease.
Totally OT, but maybe it wasn't the feminist movement that was responsible for WOHMs becoming more prevalent, but vaccines. :-P Can you imagine having to explain taking 8 weeks off of work for each case of whooping cough in your house?
post #134 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntrovertExtrovert View Post
Totally OT, but maybe it wasn't the feminist movement that was responsible for WOHMs becoming more prevalent, but vaccines. :-P Can you imagine having to explain taking 8 weeks off of work for each case of whooping cough in your house?
Actually, that is mentioned in most real historical research/theses that I have read as being *vitally* important for middle-to-upper class women to enter the workforce as a default.

A lot of people belive horribly oversimplified things about women's history in the US. The economic feminist movement was *never* about making WOHMs "more prevalent" (the US has always had a very strong population of women gainfully employed anyway, and the poor and women of color have almost always worked since colonial times pretty much.), but about trying to ensure our long history of extreme wage discrimination and some of the labor laws that were meant to try to keep women from being compensated adequately were changed.

But yeah, the advances of modern medicine and their mainstream application have been HUGELY influential in allowing mothers of young children to work in a wider variety of jobs than was previously open to them.
post #135 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntrovertExtrovert View Post
Totally OT, but maybe it wasn't the feminist movement that was responsible for WOHMs becoming more prevalent, but vaccines. :-P Can you imagine having to explain taking 8 weeks off of work for each case of whooping cough in your house?
I could be wrong, but I think your still supposed to keep a child with whooping cough at home for that long unless you use antibiotics. When dd1 caught it we did use antibiotics and still had to stay at home for five days. My grandma was from a family of 16 children and she has talked about once there was pretty much an entire year where someone in her family was quarantined because of whooping cough.
post #136 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
I could be wrong, but I think your still supposed to keep a child with whooping cough at home for that long unless you use antibiotics. When dd1 caught it we did use antibiotics and still had to stay at home for five days. My grandma was from a family of 16 children and she has talked about once there was pretty much an entire year where someone in her family was quarantined because of whooping cough.
you do realize that the financial ramifications of 5 days vs 56days is huge. So, yes, you do have to kid said child home for 5 days, but previously, it would have been 8 weeks. Huge huge difference,
post #137 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy2maya View Post
you do realize that the financial ramifications of 5 days vs 56days is huge. So, yes, you do have to kid said child home for 5 days, but previously, it would have been 8 weeks. Huge huge difference,
I never said it wasn't. I was just saying that if you aren't going to use antibiotics, you need to be willing to stay at home for a long time. And even with antibiotics you have to stay at home for five days. I found that most people didn't know that. I had people calling me up wanting to go places a couple of days after she had gone to the dr, because they thought that the second she was on medicine she would be okay.
post #138 of 156
Thread Starter 
Wow...I really appreciate everyone's input. It has, for the most part, been a really good thread to read.

I honestly didn't realize that so many people were so afraid of chicken pox and considered it deadly. I think of it as a childhood thing....like teething....or falling off a bike. No fear of it. I realize that a very very very small amount of children die from it. But children also die from falling off their bikes and hitting their head. etc. (true story...my uncle slipped and fell putting out his garbage...bumped his head. Bled in his brain and died 36 hours later....) I guess I don't see it as some do.....I definitely don't live in fear of CP.

We did Trick or Treat last night with people's advance approval. It was pouring rain and hailing so we drove. We went to the grandparents, my sister and two of my aunts houses. All great loot bags. Then went to our three neighbours houses (who both have children with chicken pox...but they were all out with friends ToT'ing) and got more loot bags. And as for the fear of passing it on while walking down the side walk.....the weather was so bad...there weren't any other people out when we went....(before 6pm).

We didn't go to gymnastics.

Not going to school on Monday. Or To our group on Tuesday night, on to our appointment on Wednesday, or swimming Wednesday night.

On Thursday we will have to re-evaluate for school.....

She has about 8 spots right now. No fever. No itching. I am kind of hoping her little sister gets it so we can get it over with.
post #139 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntrovertExtrovert View Post
Totally OT, but maybe it wasn't the feminist movement that was responsible for WOHMs becoming more prevalent, but vaccines. :-P Can you imagine having to explain taking 8 weeks off of work for each case of whooping cough in your house?
A lot of poor women always worked. But they did piecework from their homes, or they had neighbors or relations watching the kids. If your mom or MIL lived with you, you had a built in sitter. Also, if you had a kid every 2 years or so, by the time the oldest was 8 or 10, you had a built-in sitter. Or you lived in a tenement, or in a place with housing much closer together than it is in modern suburbs, and you just had someone keep an eye on the house for you.

And I'm guessing that a lot of women who worked outside the house left sick kids home alone, too. Of course, the data show that those kids were more likely to die of the sequelae of illness too, without supportive care like someone making them eat and drink.
post #140 of 156
Thread Starter 
Actually I did get alot out of this thread. Even though I see this illness just as a childhood illness and for most people nothing serious...I realize now that alot of people are really afraid of this illness, and that they view it as a *killer* or *deadly* something I didn't consider.

I didn't send my dd out trick or treating to *unknowing* people. I called in advance and made sure no one else would be there.

This thread has made me think of the day a nurse tried force the CP vaccine on me. She said that children die everyday from it and wouldn't I feel guilty if I killed my child. I thought she was being totally hysterical about the risks....but now realize for alot of people....that is how they feel.
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