Why are you organic? - Page 2

[katiesk]

I would much rather buy from the local farms which grow organically and aren't certified than buy food in Wal-Mart that's certified organic.

this is what it comes down to for me - and is it not obvious to everyone that this is the issue?

[elanorh]

I've read The Omnivore's Dilemma, we subscribe to Organic Gardening and to Mother Earth News. I don't recall what other books on sustainability I've read - I know I have, but Pollan's is the most recent one I've read.

Even before reading Pollan (I highly recommend all his books) - I have followed roughly these priorities while buying foods:
1. Can I grow it myself? Then do so (organic in my back yard).

2. Can I buy it locally AND organic (certification less important than process, I'm all for Joel Salatin's "beyond organic" category )?

3. Can I buy it locally from a responsible grower (that is, maybe not entirely organic but nearly?)

4. Can I buy it organic?

5. If I can't buy it locally or organic or both, do I need it (and the answer is sometimes "yes.")?

I think that the significant pesticide and chemical fertilizer levels which result from 'conventional' agriculture are reason enough to, when you can't find locally grown/'beyond organic' items, buy the organic versions. So they don't meet up with what 'organic' really ought to mean, and embodies for a lot of us .... but, they ARE better for the environment than the conventional version. Maybe only barely, in some cases, but still, they're an improvement. I've got two kiddos with food allergies. There's a national increase in food allergies .... Personally I wonder whether our processed, chemically saturated foods are a contributor (even though we've eaten pretty organically all along).

In a perfect world, we'd have most of our food available locally-grown and 'beyond organic.' And conventional food would be grown according to the 'organic' FDA certification. But we don't live in a perfect world ....

Honestly, knowing how difficult it is for small farmers and ranchers to obtain organic certification, no matter how we feel about 'organic' in a beyond-local setting, I have been working harder to buy organic at our stores. In this economic downturn, I certainly hope that the farmers/ranchers who are organic or in the organic certification process, don't lose everything. They are more exposed than other agriculturalists to the vagaries of the market, and for many people, when $$ is tight, organic is among the first luxuries to be ditched. My family has been ranchers for generations, I know how tough it is when the economy is good, let alone when people are cutting back.

Also the other thing to consider is what is *available* where people live. That varies significantly. Until this past year, there wasn't a CSA in our community. Our stores only recently started carrying many organic items, and even now it's difficult to find quite a few food items in organic form (ie raisins, canned fruits, most produce items). So unless a person has some sort of a countercultural local grower who's raising organic local chickens or steers or etc., organic/locally grown is limited (I can't get locally grown oranges, bananas, etc.). You do the best you can with what's available.

[sunnysandiegan]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

I'm sorry but conventionally grown tomatos are not "organic". One word can have multiple meanings and from a classification stand point yes there is organic matter, and inorganic matter but from a food stand point there is a huge difference.

I agree with you. HOWEVER, the term "organic" is not clearly defined and adhered to by all parties involved and that is my point (and I think the OP's point, as well). The rules and guidelines for "organic" keep changing, which makes it less trust-worthy for some of us.

You can get mad about the politics of it all you want but does that mean you are willing to let your family eat countless chemicals because of your objection to how the term is being tossed around these days?

I don't know about the OP, but I am not mad about the politics. The politics are just one piece of the puzzle and I am informed about how incongruent and, shall we say, slanted? they are. Big companies heavily influence government policies and it isn't for the benefit of people's health. As I mentioned already, the term "organic" isn't clearly defined and consistent enough for me to trust it exclusively. I much prefer local AND organic AND sustainable, but that isn't always possible. I choose in that order, usually, but I often choose local over "organic". For me, though, sustainable is rather tricky due to our lack of rainfall here. Diverting the Colorado River (and other water sources via the California aqueduct) has had far-reaching detrimental environmental effects. Therefore, sustainable often involves non-local, which, in turn, isn't so sustainable due to the transportation/emissions/carbon fuel aspects. It is far from as "simple" as someone upthread stated.

I know it is popular to eat organic these days but is that really a bad thing?

I think it is a good thing that organic is trendy. I am hoping as more people become aware of the issues in our food system that the collective we (consumers) will effect serious change for our collective good (better health through nutrition). Yes, I lean towards the idealistic... However, I have seen very similar things as the OP posted about uneducated people blindly insisting on ORGANIC with no knowledge of what it actually means even when it was right in front of them.

[ZoeyZoo]

Quite honestly I don't care about the label organic; I care about the food itself. If it is from a source I know is good then I will buy their products regardless of the organic label. I tend to find a lot of local sources may not be certified organic but take good care in how they produce their food.

If I don't know the brands available to me well I tend to buy organic items because I know they meet certain minimum standards I care about such as they are not GMO, they are not irridated, no hormones, no abx.

The one organic brand I won't buy is anything by Dean Foods (Horizon, Aurora, Alta Dena, Silk). You can find articles on cornucopia.org, natural news, etc. that talk about how they skirt and bend a lot of the organic laws. Even though I find a lot of stuff at natural news news questionable they have some really good articles on the differences. For example in milk, conventional cows are usually weaned with blood, are fed other animlals/manure, etc. This is not supposed to be allow under the organic label (though there are known offenders like Horizon and Aurora).

[sunnysandiegan]

elanorh - I recognize the name Joel Salatin, but cannot place where. I haven't gotten to Michael Pollan's books, yet. What have you read by Joel or about Joel? I'd like to learn more...

[kriket]

Originally Posted by sunnysandiegan

I'll add Super Size Me to my list. Thanks!

It's a bit over the top but right in the middle there he addresses school lunch and prison food. Don't feel bad if you want to fast forward through most of it

[sunnysandiegan]

Originally Posted by atobols

Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything. You can see bits and pieces of it here.

Thank you! Your link, which I am posting again to emphasize it, is pretty much how I feel. I am really excited now for the Pollan books to arrive at my local library branch!!! I am number 6 in the queue for one and number 1 for the other.

ETA: I just received notice that all three of the remaining books on my list have arrived in my local library branch! Guess where I am walking tomorrow.... which means I better close the laptop and finish reading Stuffed and Starved.

[elanorh]

Originally Posted by sunnysandiegan

elanorh - I recognize the name Joel Salatin, but cannot place where. I haven't gotten to Michael Pollan's books, yet. What have you read by Joel or about Joel? I'd like to learn more...

He's been featured several times in Mother Earth News -- here's a link to one article. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Susta...Interview.aspx

He's written several books - he's basically a libertarian farmer in VA who works to grow 'beyond organic.' There's a lot more to it than that but that's the cliff's notes version. Pollan profiles him in The Omnivore's Dilemma.

[sunnysandiegan]

Originally Posted by elanorh

He's been featured several times in Mother Earth News -- here's a link to one article. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Susta...Interview.aspx

He's written several books - he's basically a libertarian farmer in VA who works to grow 'beyond organic.' There's a lot more to it than that but that's the cliff's notes version. Pollan profiles him in The Omnivore's Dilemma.

Thanks! Now I know where I've heard his name. He was featured in FOOD, INC., so I saw him and his farm and heard some of his philosophies. I have a photographic memory, not a good audio memory.

[carmel23]

I think most food that is 'organic' is waay better then conventional, not only because of the lack of pesticide exposure, but convention food grown with synthetic fertilizers--which have less nutritional value and are also horrible for the environment.

Ever heard of the Salton Sea or drank the water in the central valley of California? The water reeks of sulfur. Yuck.

But the marketing term "organic" leaves out a lot of healthy food--there are many 'no spray' growers or people who practice 'sustainable agriculture,' permaculture, etc. that might not have paid for the 'organic' certification. But it is still good, healthy food.

USDA organic is better then nothing, but not all that strict certification. And certain foods--like organic chicken that aren't also raised 'sustainably' can be *more dangerous* to eat, because they raise the birds in the same crowded, gross conditions, but don't give the birds antibiotics... so you could be eating some gross bacteria (although you aren't getting a dose of antibiotics).

A pastured bird, or 'natural chicken' in many cases could be better quality if you know the farmer, and know that they don't give the birds other gross stuff, let them eat grass and bugs, etc and not just nasty feed--and aren't crowded into gross living conditions. Although it isn't 'organic' it could be healthier.

A lot of the people who started the organic movement in northern california and other places have since then rejected it as over-marketed and not really meaning anything anymore:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009...nd-organic.php


another good documentary is King Corn...

[sunnysandiegan]

Originally Posted by atobols

There is a much more in depth article by Pollan here but I didn't see where he specifically mentioned the feedlot style/inhumane condition of animals on organic factory farms. I still want more details about that.

I finally finished reading that entire article. It certainly is more in-depth! Thanks for the links, atobols. I am very keen on educating myself about food these days. A vast majority of what Pollan wrote about in the above link jives with what I have learned recently and with my own thoughts. "Industrial organic" is a new term for me, but THAT is precisely what bothers me about the "organic" label in supermarkets. I guess I see it as a necessary evil for the entire food system to change eventually....kind of like a stepping stone. It helps with certain aspects of what is "wrong" with our current food system and perhaps it will lead to better and better end results down the line. Rome wasn't built in a day type thinking.

BTW, he touched on some of the details in that article, but it was brief. The main story was about Cascadian Farms and he didn't say anything outright bad about them (although he certainly painted a far different picture than I have been led to believe by MDCers). Yet, he snuck in a few tidbits here and there without naming names, although he may have named Horizon now that I think about it.

OP, I have greatly enjoyed this thread and appreciate you posting it. Thanks!

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by sunnysandiegan

I finally finished reading that entire article. It certainly is more in-depth! Thanks for the links, atobols. I am very keen on educating myself about food these days. A vast majority of what Pollan wrote about in the above link jives with what I have learned recently and with my own thoughts. "Industrial organic" is a new term for me, but THAT is precisely what bothers me about the "organic" label in supermarkets. I guess I see it as a necessary evil for the entire food system to change eventually....kind of like a stepping stone. It helps with certain aspects of what is "wrong" with our current food system and perhaps it will lead to better and better end results down the line. Rome wasn't built in a day type thinking.

BTW, he touched on some of the details in that article, but it was brief. The main story was about Cascadian Farms and he didn't say anything outright bad about them (although he certainly painted a far different picture than I have been led to believe by MDCers). Yet, he snuck in a few tidbits here and there without naming names, although he may have named Horizon now that I think about it.

OP, I have greatly enjoyed this thread and appreciate you posting it. Thanks!

I too just finished the article and found it very interesting, printed it off for DH to read (cross my fingers on that one).
Cascadian Farms reminds me of Kashi is one regard. Kashi is owned by Kellogs and yet nobody seems to know that from the commercials kwim?

If we all threw out our microwaves (I am trying to convince DH to do this) maybe there wouldn't be something like an 'organic' tv dinner. The article definitely made me think more about the label although I had been aware of some of the implications of what it means today!

[staceychev]

I eat locally as well, and when I buy from my farmers' market and can talk to the farmer, I don't care if it's "certified organic" or not. When I buy organic in the store, it's because it's a way to try to make my purchases, while part of the big agricultural machine, more sustainable.

It also depends on what I'm buying. Asking me to not say "to keep pesticide exposure down" is a bit disingenuous because that is why I choose organic for things like strawberries and peppers and apples. In fact, if we can't get those organic in my family, we don't eat them. However, other foods that I choose organic, I choose for other reasons. I choose organic bananas because the pesticides are killing migratory songbirds, and for many things I choose organic because I have some abstract and admittedly much removed concern for the people who are growing my food.

[sunnysandiegan]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

I too just finished the article and found it very interesting, printed it off for DH to read (cross my fingers on that one).
Cascadian Farms reminds me of Kashi is one regard. Kashi is owned by Kellogs and yet nobody seems to know that from the commercials kwim?

If we all threw out our microwaves (I am trying to convince DH to do this) maybe there wouldn't be something like an 'organic' tv dinner. The article definitely made me think more about the label although I had been aware of some of the implications of what it means today!

Interesting you mentioned Kashi. I choose not to watch TV, so I have never seen the commercials. However, Kashi foods have a La Jolla address and we live really close to La Jolla (within 10-15 minutes drive). Our playgroup wanted to take a tour to learn more about the company since a lot of us know the brand and believe in healthy foods, etc. As captain, I took the suggestion and ran with it. I called Kashi several times requesting info and explaining what we would like to do and asking questions, etc. (I was told right away that the La Jolla address was just offices, so I was trying to get more info in order to present a food lesson playgroup using Kashi as the example.) The vibe I got from those phone calls turned me off that brand/company altogether and I was disappointed. It was hard to tell the other moms about those calls. Everyone was disappointed.

-------------

Meanwhile, I finished Stuffed and Starved and I highly recommend reading it! I give it two thumbs up for educating me on the full length (!) of the food systems around the world and it was eye-opening in many ways, far moreso than any of the other books I've read to date and definitely moreso than any of the movies I've seen on this topic.

I started Michael Pollan's The Omnivores Dilemma today and like it. (I haven't gotten very far.)

IMO, most of the books and articles linked in this thread go way beyond the original question of "why are you organic?", but really get to the heart of why many people are looking for more than "organic" and why "organic" isn't really satisfying the health needs of today.

[mamadelbosque]

I buy organic as much as I can, mostly in an attempt to do 3 things:

1) Avoid GMOs. Buying organic is the ONLY way to keep from eating GMO's in the USA. Other countries have labeling laws so you can avoid specific stuff. We don't. THe only way to avoid it is to buy cert Organic.

2) Buying organic means I'm not supporting unsustainable farming. The way conventional farms are run today is totally, completely utterly unsustainable long-term. We will eventually run out of oil, at which point petroleum based pesticides, herbacides & fertilizers will no longer be available. Additionally, buying organic keeps those same pesticides, fertilzers, etc from leaching into the soil and eventualy into our water tables where they harm fish, amphibians, reptiles, and, yes US!

Those things said, I prefer local food in general to organic. but if I can't get it local, I buy organic when available. But, I will *NOT* buy conventional pork/chicken/etc from CAFOs just because its "local" if I can get cert organic/free range. We are lucky in that we're able to buy most of our meat locally (chicken, turkey, beef, goat, lamb & hunt deer, occasionally local free-range pork as well), but what I can't/don't I definetly go for organic.

[Kino]

At first I didn't understand your question... But I think you are asking about the actual organic label? That little USDA stamp?

When you wrote "organic" I read it as including local sustainable farms who do not go through the certification process. I thought why would you consider earth-friendly farming a crock...

I don't care about the stamp, I care about the food. If the only organic apples I can get are the stamped ones at Whole Foods then I buy them. My health comes first. Well maybe not if they're flown in from South America, but a state away I'll buy them.

Large-scale, long-distance organic farming does bother me. I don't believe it is as sustainable or healthy as local organic farming.

I don't mind paying the higher price for my organic food though. I see it as paying the real cost of food. A lot of love and dedication goes into running a farm.

[Alyantavid]

Originally Posted by elanorh

I've read The Omnivore's Dilemma, we subscribe to Organic Gardening and to Mother Earth News. I don't recall what other books on sustainability I've read - I know I have, but Pollan's is the most recent one I've read.

Even before reading Pollan (I highly recommend all his books) - I have followed roughly these priorities while buying foods:
1. Can I grow it myself? Then do so (organic in my back yard).

2. Can I buy it locally AND organic (certification less important than process, I'm all for Joel Salatin's "beyond organic" category )?

3. Can I buy it locally from a responsible grower (that is, maybe not entirely organic but nearly?)

4. Can I buy it organic?

5. If I can't buy it locally or organic or both, do I need it (and the answer is sometimes "yes.")?

I think that the significant pesticide and chemical fertilizer levels which result from 'conventional' agriculture are reason enough to, when you can't find locally grown/'beyond organic' items, buy the organic versions. So they don't meet up with what 'organic' really ought to mean, and embodies for a lot of us .... but, they ARE better for the environment than the conventional version. Maybe only barely, in some cases, but still, they're an improvement. I've got two kiddos with food allergies. There's a national increase in food allergies .... Personally I wonder whether our processed, chemically saturated foods are a contributor (even though we've eaten pretty organically all along).

In a perfect world, we'd have most of our food available locally-grown and 'beyond organic.' And conventional food would be grown according to the 'organic' FDA certification. But we don't live in a perfect world ....

Honestly, knowing how difficult it is for small farmers and ranchers to obtain organic certification, no matter how we feel about 'organic' in a beyond-local setting, I have been working harder to buy organic at our stores. In this economic downturn, I certainly hope that the farmers/ranchers who are organic or in the organic certification process, don't lose everything. They are more exposed than other agriculturalists to the vagaries of the market, and for many people, when $$ is tight, organic is among the first luxuries to be ditched. My family has been ranchers for generations, I know how tough it is when the economy is good, let alone when people are cutting back.

Also the other thing to consider is what is *available* where people live. That varies significantly. Until this past year, there wasn't a CSA in our community. Our stores only recently started carrying many organic items, and even now it's difficult to find quite a few food items in organic form (ie raisins, canned fruits, most produce items). So unless a person has some sort of a countercultural local grower who's raising organic local chickens or steers or etc., organic/locally grown is limited (I can't get locally grown oranges, bananas, etc.). You do the best you can with what's available.

Yeah to all that. I raise my own food as much as possible and try to get most everything else from local sources. I don't care at all about the "organic" stamp, I'm much more interested in how it's really, truly raised.

If you call something organic and have a nifty little stamp, you can sell it for a higher price, regardless of the actual quality.

[buttercup784ever]

Warning: Naughty Language

Penn and Teller did a show about Organic food. Here's a little of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsuT3mndOKE

Funny stuff.

[kriket]

I liked that video! I love naughty language