Has Anybody Just Said, "No"?

[Leta]

So as for me, I'm homeschooly. But DD, who's 3.5, is starting to ask to go to school. If she wants to attend, I'd much rather have her go in elementary and homeschool thru middle and high school, so I'm thinking I'll let her attend if she still wants to go in fall 2011.

That said, our PS does give homework starting in kindy, something to which I am vehemently opposed. I'm against homework in any grade, full stop. I have an informed opinion about this. If you feel differently, that's cool, but I doubt I will ever change my mind about this.

So... has anybody told their kid's school, "Junior won't be doing homework, so don't expect it"? What happened?

[rabrog]

I bet it's in the last 3 or so pages of posts, there's a whole thread about this that families are not doing homework this year.

I'd suggest you look for a "school of choice" or a charter school (Montessori, place based education school).

Jenn

[hipsands]

If your child is asking to go at 3.5 yrs, maybe she'll surprise you, by WANTING to do homework. Don't know if that would make you think twice or not, by following her lead with school AND homework. I say this as a parent who was sure my kid would not go to kindergarten--and 100% sure we wouldn't do full day!--but my eldest by the time he was 4.5 really, really wanted to try school. So we did, and lo and behold we're with a public school full time K, which has homework every week. And, he very much enjoys doing his homework. I was also against the idea of it (my husband is also, and he's a high school teacher of all things) but we decided to follow his lead with school, and likewise homework. And things are going fine. If it got unbalanced (forcing the issue) I'm sure we'd reevaluate.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by hipsands

If your child is asking to go at 3.5 yrs, maybe she'll surprise you, by WANTING to do homework. Don't know if that would make you think twice or not, by following her lead with school AND homework.

Things often turn out very different than we think they will. My kids are 11 and 13 and the wisest words I can tell you are to not try to plan too far ahead.

Sometimes what we think is generally best and what works out being what our child wants/is best for them are very different things. I prefer to raise my kids looking to them for what is working rather than based on research.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by hipsands

If your child is asking to go at 3.5 yrs, maybe she'll surprise you, by WANTING to do homework.

I was thinking the same. Especially if she starts in K, where the "homework" is likely to be "bring in an object that begins with 's'", or a coloring page.

Originally Posted by rabrog

I'd suggest you look for a "school of choice" or a charter school (Montessori, place based education school).

Is montessori less likely to assign homework? Dd's friend goes to a charter montessori (2nd grade), and dd is in public (3rd grade). The friend in montessori gets MUCH more homework, and more consistently, than dd. Is that unusual?

Sometimes what we think is generally best and what works out being what our child wants/is best for them are very different things

One of my hardest learned parenting lessons so far

Opting out of homework will be an uphill battle at a lot of schools, and no problem at others. Honestly, if I still felt as strongly as you seem to feel when my dc was school age, I'd probably just homeschool. If you want to homeschool, joining the local group now will help your dc see how exciting that community can be, and might dampen some of the enthusiasm to go to school (simply because it would mean the end of something she is already enjoying).

[chiromamma]

If you're opposed to homework, I'd keep her home or find a school that doesn't give it. Why enter into a system that you don't buy into?
She's 3.5. Just because she's asking to go to school, doesn't mean it's the best choice for your family.

[MacKinnon]

I would not enroll your DD into a system that you cannot support due to your own beliefs. I struggled with this, as our school does full day kindy, but was pleasantly surprised that it is very developmentally appropriate. DD's only homework so far was to make a Me Book, which she had a lot of fun working on. It doesn't seem fair to your DD, or to your DD's teacher, to refuse to let your child do the work, that is expected. Weather or not you agree with the point and/or purpose of homework, I suspect that in the early grades your child would feel left out, and by middle el. their grades would be effected.

[Leta]

Originally Posted by rabrog

I bet it's in the last 3 or so pages of posts, there's a whole thread about this that families are not doing homework this year.


Jenn

I've been lookin' but no luck. Any links?

[sunnmama]

here's one

[Tigerchild]

Honestly?

If I knew going in to something that I would undermine it no matter what and would never support it...then I would keep my kid out of that educational program.

There have been a few things that I have said, "I don't really like this, and I don't think it will work, but I am willing to give it X amount of time and then reasess." But I got to pick the program and teachers that my children have. So even though we may not always see eye to eye, I do trust that my children's teachers are smart, capable teachers who are an asset to my children and I don't always need to totally agree with them in order to be willing to suspend judgement and try something based on their recommendation.

For me to just dig in my heels without even being willing to listen to their reasons and/or give it a try is not something that I feel is ethical or kind of me to do in a collaborative relationship. And if I couldn't have a collaborative relationship with my kids' teachers, I would homeschool.

I count myself EXTREMELY lucky to have access to a program where I and my kids have access to the wonderful teachers/partners that we do. Perhaps if I were not in that situation I might be tempted to dig in my heels and never give something a try, but again...I don't think that it serves anyone well to do that. I can't take out my angst over not homeschooling on a teacher--it's certainly not their fault. And I think that pretty much everyone is human and opening up the relationship in a combative and uncompromising way right from the getgo will probably borrow more problems than it solves.

So I guess the answer is no, I wouldn't say "No, never, no way" based on a decision I'd made years earlier without even knowing the teacher or giving the classroom environment a chance. I'm almost always willing to give things a try. After that though, if it doesn't work it doesn't work, and at that point I would feel ethically free to say "no," and back it up if that is what is appropriate. As other people have mentioned, sometimes (not always) your children will suprise you, and things you assumed would work or not work for them based on experiences and behavior when they were younger might actually be harmful or counterproductive at a later point.

[carmel23]

My K kid goes to a school that gives one page of homework per week for K.

My son just doesn't do it. No need to mention it to the teacher, or make a big deal. He just doesn't do it. If he wants to do it, because sometimes it is a fun thing to do, he can. He can turn it in if he wants to.

Next year he will attend a school that doesn't have a K, but doesn't have homework through 3rd grade, at least (and I think through 6th grade).

I wouldn't 'borrow trouble' and worry about things that *might* happen in the future.

[Leta]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

here's one

Thanks!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Tigerchild

So I guess the answer is no, I wouldn't say "No, never, no way" based on a decision I'd made years earlier without even knowing the teacher or giving the classroom environment a chance.

yep. Both of my kids are doing homework right now. One is researching Egypt for a project by reading a book that she is excited about, the other is using excel to make a graph of some data from a science experiement her class did last week. It's good stuff. It's good for them.

When they were 3, we were planning on unschooling forever.

Right now they are better off in school and doing their homework. Things change.

[kathymuggle]

How about following the childs lead? They might like the homework, it may work for them, it may be in normal amounts etc.

Now if it does not work for them I would feel perfectly fine in telling the teacher - this isn't working -we need to change things. Given the research on homework's lack of usefullness in early grades you could very well toe a firm line with the school if the homework does not work for your child.

I do not agree with the above posters who say you should accept the policy or HS. It shouldn't be "buy in completely" or get out. Sometimes sticking around and asserting your beliefs or rights as long as they do not hurt your child is the way to go. The only way schools are going to change their policies is if someone challenges them. Moreover a child should not loose out on a school experience if that is what they want because of disagreement in one area. (of course if there are multiple issues - sometimes leaving is the way to go - but one issue of this scale? nah)

Kathy

[Leta]

At the risk of inviting judgment and putting too much out there, here are my thoughts about school.

I fully support public schools. I come from a family of public school teachers. I have no problem paying my property taxes. In theory, I think the major things that should change within our school system are times (I think older kids should start later than younger kids, and there should be a part time option where kids can get picked up at lunch time) and that the last two years of high school should be replaced with two years of community college.

In practice, the stuff that I have problems with varies a lot by the school. Often, it's stuff that the school would be hard pressed to change, such as negative peer influence. However, in the case of our local PS, there are three things they do that I will not allow my LOs to participate in, as they do not jibe with our family's values. They are homework, fundraisers, and drug education programs. Now, I have my reasons for all of these. I don't fault anyone else for making a different set of choices for their family- but these things, within our family structure, are not okay.

Even though I'd prefer the school not use things like hand sanitizer, have a totally different system for school lunches, and offer a part time option, I am NOT going to waltz in to a classroom, toss the hand sanitizer, berate the lunch ladies, and pick up my kids any ol' time I want. That would be disruptive and interfere with all the other kids getting the education to which they are entitled.

On the other hand, what is the harm of parents making some general educational choices for their kids? Lots of parents know going in that they'll opt out of sex ed programs- how is my choice any different?

I am willing to follow my kids' lead about elementary school attendance. However, while they are still young, I am going to flex a little mama muscle on some issues. When they are older, if they make an informed decision that's different from mine, I will accept that. But I don't think a kid under the age of about 8 is typically equipped to make thoughtful, far reaching decisions, especially those that impact the entire family unit. Again, if you differ, that's cool with me. This is just about what works for us.

I am very grateful to the education reform movement for offering a big, wide range of choices that didn't exist when I was a kid. But I think we need public schools, and that if they are going to continue to exist, and especially to thrive, they have to be willing to make a reasonable effort to acomidate various sets of family preferences and values. One size fits all fits no one well.

Having said all this, I have explored charter, parochial, and other public schools. None of these will work for us for various reasons. So, for the foreseeable future, it's local PS or home. I'm a planner- I like a Plan A and Plan B. So I'm getting my ducks in a row, just in case.

[EFmom]

I have to say, I hope it works out well for you and you return and report for the rest of us so that we can copy your strategy.

I've opted my kids out of the DARE program. It was pretty easy because legally, they have to have an opt-in policy. Most schools don't, including ours, but when I presented the info to the principal, I think she was quick to realize the district violates the law on that one. There were no repercussions for my kids not taking DARE.

We also don't do fundraisers. I'm not opposed to supporting the school, but my kids aren't an unpaid sales force for overpriced crap from corporate America. I write a honking big check on back to school night directly to the PTA, and we are done. There have been no repercussions for that, and I know that had we not made a direct contribution, there still would be no reaction from the school.

While I agree completely that homework, particularly in elementary school, is a very bad and largely useless thing, in my mind it falls into a different category. I wish we had the nerve to "just say no," but even pushing back some has been difficult.

There are several reasons why it would be hard to opt out of homework. First, it is enshrined as a Cherished District Policy that elementary students should get a ludicrous amount of homework. So that really puts the teachers on the spot, even if they privately don't like homework. You will get the parental crowd that buys into the CDP, who will complain if their first graders aren't bringing home reams of worksheets every night, because little Connor will never get into Yale and Dartmouth Medical School if he doesn't do his worksheets.

It is also an integral part of the curriculum, the grading and the daily workflow for the classroom teachers in a way that fundraisers and DARE are not. It would be very difficult for teachers to have one set of kids who does stacks of worksheets and one that doesn't.

I do push back on the amount of homework. I've encountered many elementary teachers who don't buy into the homework thing, but don't have much of a choice given the way the district (micro)manages things. In our case, to get anywhere with this, you'd have to be willing to take on the district. Our school board has unanimously rubber stamped every single suggestion the administrators make for the last 15 years and probably beyond, so we would get no where trying to influence the board.

Our district administrators adore homework because it's a CDP and no amount of research, data or logic is going to change their minds.

So, I heartily hope you are successful in your district.

[mamadebug]

I agree with the poster who said you may be surprised and find that your DD wants to do the homework. I used to teach kinder and 1st grade, and to my surprise, I found kids at this age find doing worksheets (what the homework given at most schools usually consists of) very satisfying. I tried really hard to avoid that kind of work, but given that I had to use the curriculum given by the school district, I ended up giving some. I think there is something developmental at that age about having a well defined task that they can finish fairly quickly, and it is all neatly wrapped up on one sheet of paper. Of course, maybe they enjoyed it because it wasn't given very often! My concern wouldn't be so much the 1 or 2 worksheets given in kinder. It would be more the realization that you are entering into a system where a couple of years down the road A LOT of homework will probably be given.

[EFmom]

Yeah, your typical kindergartener might not mind doing a worksheet or two.

I think there is something developmental at that age about having a well defined task that they can finish fairly quickly, and it is all neatly wrapped up on one sheet of paper.

Maybe, but I can't think of a good reason why they shouldn't be having their well-defined tasks completed during the lengthy school day.

By the time they are in second or third grade, it's not out of the ordinary to have the child weeping at the kitchen table every afternoon when confronted with their piles of homework. When my kids ask me why they can't go out and play instead of doing more homework after being in school all day, I honestly don't have a good answer.

[Leta]

See, this is more or less where I am. I am a nip-it-in-the-bud, cut-it-off-at-the-pass, forewarned is forearmed kind of person.

And DD does speech, horseback riding, swimming, dance, and gymnastics. Even if speech is done by the time she's 5, she's still going to be in 2-3 activities at a time. I highly doubt she's going to want to give up one of her activities to do homework, and, frankly, I have enough to do. I am unwilling to add one more thing to my to do list. And even if she wants to do the kindy worksheet, and does it all on her own without being reminded, I'd rather just set the precedent that the Sproylan kids don't do homework and leave it at that.

[Tigerchild]

I don't see that anyone has advocated all or nothing.

Just that being inflexible may create more problems than it solves.

SHOULD education be tailored to the individual child in every public school? Of course it should.

*IS* it? No. With rare exceptions.

Just as you don't want to be bothered having your after school activities interrupted, you're going to run in to teachers who frankly don't want to be bothered trying to squeeze in homework time during the day when much of their schedule is dictated to them by administration. And just like you might get pissed off if someone in a school tells you "This is required, no matter who you are", starting off your relationship with a teacher by saying in essence, "I really don't give a crap about you or your reasons, we're not going to do this," may not win you the collaborative relationship that benefits everyone involved. Of course, perhaps you don't care about that. And you can do everything right sometimes and still get stuck with a rigid teacher who won't work with you.

I am a planner/up front person by nature as well. However, I've also learned that while that works very well in situations where I have full control, it seems to upset my children the least and curtail my stress a bit if I at least attempt to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone that I must by necessity form some kind of relationship with. Just because I am willing to do that does not mean I am a doormat, I am not. I have just found that I've actually been able to reason/compromise with people easier by at least acknowledging and trying to understand their reasoning behind what they're doing instead of just assuming I know why and that it's worthless. Of course, I've also been lucky with the teachers involved. It just seems to me that it works out better if you treat teachers like they are at least semi-intelligent and try to work with them.

Every time you have a new teacher, every time you have a new administrator, every time the district gets a bug up its ass about the latest thing, every time there's a curriculum change--you're likely to have to have conversations again. So I think you may have slightly unrealistic expectations about precedent setting. You're going to have to reiterate it multiple times to multiple people. IME people are more likely to broadly accept it and not bother you about it if they feel like you have at least put a token effort into hearing their reasons. Your mileage may vary.