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If Vaccines Were Never Invented... - Page 8

post #141 of 178
and it isn't just the vaccine preventable diseases for which parents should keep their children home

for children with serious health problems and immune deficiencies a sickness can be disastrous...even if there isn't a vaccine to prevent it.
post #142 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
and it isn't just the vaccine preventable diseases for which parents should keep their children home

for children with serious health problems and immune deficiencies a sickness can be disastrous...even if there isn't a vaccine to prevent it.
ITA If your child is sick, then keep them at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WC_hapamama View Post
A lot of people, not just at MDC, have a tendency to forget that while most VPDs and minor illnesses are just a nuisance to them, that it may be a seriously life-threatening thing for other people. It's not that people are necessarily being stupid or malicious on purpose, just at they're not thinking about how their decisions may affect others.

ITA with this too. Especially with things like whooping cough and chicken pox where a child is still contagious, but doesn't act sick. When my dd had WC, she only coughed at night and acted fine during the day. People acted shocked that I was keeping her at home.
post #143 of 178
at some point whooping cough ceases to be communicable--anyone know?

So it isn't necessary to keep your child locked up for 100 days
post #144 of 178
About 21 days after cough onset.
post #145 of 178
Thank you amnesiac. Glad you managed to remember!
post #146 of 178

This is your premiere post on MDC? Welcome.

 

Any links for those wild assertions? 

 

The first inoculations against smallpox were in India, over 2500 yrs ago. If inoculation against smallpox worked so well, why has it taken over 2500 yrs to eliminate a disease? Something else must be at work.

www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

You should note that the very last person to DIE from smallpox was a fully vaccinated healthcare worker in September 1977; she gave it to her mother, also vaccinated, who recovered. So much for the smallpox vaccine or any vaccine saving lives or preventing disease.

Please refer to Dissolving Illusions - Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History by Dr. Suzanne Humpheries, MD and Jabs, Jenner, and Juggernauts, by Jennifer Craig, RN, PhD.

 

If vaccines were never invented, I would have had an uncle and my niece would not have had to suffer all of her life from JRA, and from the drugs to treat the disease; she spent much of her childhood in the hospital recovering from treatments that did not help her.

 

And, yes, a little history research goes a long way. 


Edited by applejuice - 11/23/13 at 7:27pm
post #147 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
 

This is your premiere post on MDC? Welcome.

 

Any links for those wild assertions? 

 

The first inoculations against smallpox were in India, over 2500 yrs ago. If inoculation against smallpox worked so well, why has it taken over 2500 yrs to eliminate a disease? Something else must be at work.

www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

You should note that the very last person to DIE from smallpox was a fully vaccinated healthcare worker in September 1977; she gave it to her mother, also vaccinated, who recovered. So much for the smallpox vaccine or any vaccine saving lives or preventing disease.

Please refer to Dissolving Illusions - Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History by Dr. Suzanne Humpheries, MD and Jabs, Jenner, and Juggernauts, by Jennifer Craig, RN, PhD.

 

If vaccines were never invented, I would have had an uncle and my niece would not have had to suffer all of her life from JRA, and from the drugs to treat the disease; she spent much of her childhood in the hospital recovering from treatments that did not help her.

 

And, yes, a little history research goes a long way. 

thanks for posting those links :wink

post #148 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

This is your premiere post on MDC? Welcome.

Any links for those wild assertions? 

The first inoculations against smallpox were in India, over 2500 yrs ago. If inoculation against smallpox worked so well, why has it taken over 2500 yrs to eliminate a disease? Something else must be at work.
www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox
You should note that the very last person to DIE from smallpox was a fully vaccinated healthcare worker in September 1977; she gave it to her mother, also vaccinated, who recovered. So much for the smallpox vaccine or any vaccine saving lives or preventing disease.


Please refer to Dissolving Illusions - Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History by Dr. Suzanne Humpheries, MD and Jabs, Jenner, and Juggernauts, by Jennifer Craig, RN, PhD.

If vaccines were never invented, I would have had an uncle and my niece would not have had to suffer all of her life from JRA, and from the drugs to treat the disease; she spent much of her childhood in the hospital recovering from treatments that did not help her.

And, yes, a little history research goes a long way. 

You know this a 4 year old thread? Where do these old threads keep appearing from - I thought they had all been locked years back...
post #149 of 178

I know how old it is. Did you know I answered someone? Do you have anything to add to what I or anyone said?

post #150 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
 

I know how old it is. Did you know I answered someone? Do you have anything to add to what I or anyone said?

 

You may have answered someone, but it's not at all clear who.  What post were you responding too? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
 

This is your premiere post on MDC? Welcome.

 

Any links for those wild assertions? 

 

The first inoculations against smallpox were in India, over 2500 yrs ago. If inoculation against smallpox worked so well, why has it taken over 2500 yrs to eliminate a disease? Something else must be at work.

www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

You should note that the very last person to DIE from smallpox was a fully vaccinated healthcare worker in September 1977; she gave it to her mother, also vaccinated, who recovered. So much for the smallpox vaccine or any vaccine saving lives or preventing disease.

Please refer to Dissolving Illusions - Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History by Dr. Suzanne Humpheries, MD and Jabs, Jenner, and Juggernauts, by Jennifer Craig, RN, PhD.

 

If vaccines were never invented, I would have had an uncle and my niece would not have had to suffer all of her life from JRA, and from the drugs to treat the disease; she spent much of her childhood in the hospital recovering from treatments that did not help her.

 

And, yes, a little history research goes a long way. 

 

That's like asking why chickenpox parties (which were not so common back in the days when kids generally all got chickenpox without haing to look for it, but they did happen), never managed to wipe out chickenpox. 

 

Inoculation was deliberately exposing someone to smallpox (generally from dried smallpox scabs) obtained from someone who had a mild case.  People who acquired smallpox this way were less likely to die than people who acquired smallpox the normal way because taking the disease from someone who had a mild case meant it was more likely to be the less dangerous variola minor strain rather than the more deadly variola major (but of course this wasn't always true).  Innoculationin Europe also generally involved infecting a person through a wound in the skin, and when infected through the skin it takes longer for the virus to take hold, giving the immune system more time to learn to fight it, than it has with the normal means of infection by inhaling virus.  

 

But still, it was deliberately  infecting people with smallpox.  While it certainly saved the lives of some people who survived inoculation but would have died had they caught smallpox the natural way, it killed some who may never have gotten smallpox at all, spread smallpox, prolonged epidemics, and was thus reponsible for many, many deaths. 

 

It was deliberate exposure to actual smallpox, not a modified or killed virus.  It was not a vaccine. 

 

Jenner's vaccine was not much like modern vaccines either.  It was also deliberately infecting people with a wild virus, but that virus was cowpox, which is very mild in people, but closely enough related to smallpox to have cross immunity.  It also can be used to vaccinate rabbits against rabbitpox, mice against mousepox,and monkeys and humans against monkeypox.  All those disease are closely related, but monkeypox is the only one dangerous to humans. 

 

Early smallpox vaccine with Jenner's vaccination was not at all like our modern vaccines with alcohol wipes and disposable needle and quality assurance tests as to what was in the vial.  Early vaccine travelled on the arm of a person.  Vaccinate one person, an they would get a blister on their arm.  Material from this blister could then be used to vaccinate someone else, and this was how the vaccine often traveled between cities and and countries and even across oceans.  Unfortunately syphilis and other diseases would all too often be passed along with the vaccine.  Occasionally actual smallpox was passed along!  Things improved somewhat when they started using a poor cow to incubate the disease, but there were still a lot of problems with that method too and not much control of sanitation and many poorly trained vaccinators at the time.  

 

While the vaccine is certainly not the most effective (though much more so in recent times with more modern controls and methods than back then), and may not last that long (though while it may wear off after just a few years for some, they were recently surprised when tests showed a high level of immunity still in some people who were vaccinated many years ago, and noticed that in monkeypox outbreaks in Africa people who had been vaccinated for smallpox were still less likely to get monekypox), but it can often prevent smallpox. 

 

I don't believe that quarantine alone could ever have completely wiped out smallpox.  it could in theory with enough control of people, but in large cities with slums and little law enforcement or medical care and frequent travellers, and places torn by war?  I don't think vaccination alone could have wiped out the disease either.  It was a combiantion of both with a lot of surveillance and speedy action to quarantine infected individuals and vaccinate a ring of people who might be exposed or might be exposed from someone else already unknowingly coming down with it.  Look at the large numbers of possible contacts they vaccinated - could they ever have possibly quarantined all those people?  

post #151 of 178

So you do not believe that quarantine works? We deal with facts, not beliefs. 
Did you know that the very last epidemic of smallpox was handled successfully by the WHO  BECAUSE the methods involved included quarantine.  Quarantine was used in Biblical times to keep lepers out of the community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_outbreak_of_smallpox_in_Yugoslavia
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nichsr/esmallpox/SmallpoxYugoslavia-EPI-72-91-2.pdf

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/WHO_SE_73.57.pdf
Quarantine was used and worked in Leicester in 1877. I notice a pattern here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082657/?page=18

www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/RossPagesfromvolumeXLIIIsm-7.pdf
If you believe that quarantine denies a person of civil rights, then why doesn't vaccination, i.e., injecting a foreign substance into a healthy person's body by government fiat, deny a person of civil rights, especially when the SCOTUS and Congress of the United States have stated that vaccinations are UN-avoidably UN-safe.  The entire idea of vaccination/inoculation, i.e., giving a treatment to an already healthy person to perhaps avoid an illness, is UN-ethical.

Quote:
 

That's like asking why chickenpox parties (which were not so common back in the days when kids generally all got chickenpox without haing to look for it, but they did happen), never managed to wipe out chickenpox. 

 

 

Who ever said that chickenpox parties were supposed to wipe out chicken pox?  Any sources for that statement?
 

 

Those early inoculations often resulted in more than just smallpox; since Jenner's methods were very crude, the patient often got more than they bargained for in the form of syphllis or tuberculosis, whatever diseases the person from whom the the pus came from may have had. The treatments for smallpox in cases in which the inoculation did not work properly, or "the person's body failed to react properly to the inoculation" or the person acquired smallpox the old fashioned way were made with mercury, arsenic, and many other toxic substances that did not improve the person's condition. And you did not note that the very last person to DIE from smallpox was a fully vaccinated healthcare worker in September 1977; she gave it to her mother, also vaccinated, who recovered. So much for the smallpox vaccine or any vaccine saving lives or preventing disease.

A little history research goes a long way. I sincerely doubt that you have read those books I posted, so please read them. They are written and researched by health professionals who have seen the damage that vaccines do throughout their long careers.


Edited by applejuice - 11/25/13 at 4:06am
post #152 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
 

So you do not believe that quarantine works? We deal with facts, not beliefs. 
 

 

Quarantine works. When you can make it happen. 

 

It's the making it happen that is the rub.  

 

 

Quote:
 

Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

 

Did you know that the very last epidemic of smallpox was handled successfully by the WHO  BECAUSE the methods involved included quarantine.  Quarantine was used in Biblical times to keep lepers out of the community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_outbreak_of_smallpox_in_Yugoslavia
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nichsr/esmallpox/SmallpoxYugoslavia-EPI-72-91-2.pdf

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/WHO_SE_73.57.pdf
Quarantine was used and worked in Leicester in 1877. I notice a pattern here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082657/?page=18

www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/RossPagesfromvolumeXLIIIsm-7.pdf
If you believe that quarantine denies a person of civil rights, then why doesn't vaccination, i.e., injecting a foreign substance into a healthy person's body by government fiat, deny a person of civil rights, especially when the SCOTUS and Congress of the United States have stated that vaccinations are UN-avoidably UN-safe.  The entire idea of vaccination/inoculation, i.e., giving a treatment to an already healthy person to perhaps avoid an illness, is UN-ethical. 

 

 

Yes, smallpox was wiped out because the movement to do so used both vaccination and quarantine.  As I said in my previous post, I don't think the vaccine alone could have done it if they also hadn't used quarantine. 

 

Yes, quarantine was shown to be very effective in Leicester.  (Even there targeted vaccination was still used after they stopped routine vaccination.  In particular, medical staff caring for smallpox patients were mostly vaccinated, and those who weren't tended to get smallpox). 

 

But like I said, it's making he quarantine work that is the rub.  Unsurprisingly, a lot of smallpox contacts may object to being kept away from their livelihood and from  going about their business.  In places with the resources to keep them against their will, they can do that.  But the teams vaccinating for smallpox were risking their lives entering war zones in many places.  They traveled through areas of extreme poverty and areas where there was little law.  They could sweep in and vaccinate people in a hurry, and encourage isolation of the sick and those who had had close contact with them, but who was going to stick around and enforce it on all those people for as long as needed?  

 

And no, I don't think forced quarantine is a human rights violation in the case of smallpox.  And on the subject, while I think everyone (except those who really have medical reasons not to) should get vaccinated, I do not support forced vaccination.  But you know what is also unavoidably unsafe?  Well, driving for one.  Or riding a bike, or pretty much anything, but specially diseases which can be prevented by vaccines. 

 

On the other hand, the way lepers have been treated throughout history has been absolutely horrible.  And yet, we still have both lepers and leper colonies in areas where treatment is not available which is absolutely despicable, considering just how cheap and effective treatment is. Despite thousands of year of quarantine, leprosy hasn't quite been wiped out yet. 

 

Quote:
 

 

Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

 

Who ever said that chickenpox parties were supposed to wipe out chicken pox?  Any sources for that statement?

 

Obviously chickenpox parties were not intended to wipe out chickenpox.  They were intended to get chickenpox out of the way before teenage years or adulthood when the disease could be far more serious. 

 

My point was, whoever said that inoculation, which again was deliberately infecting people with actual smallpox, was supposed to wipe out Smallpox?  it was done for the benefit of the individual, not for the benefit of society.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

 

Those early inoculations often resulted in more than just smallpox; since Jenner's methods were very crude, the patient often got more than they bargained for in the form of syphllis or tuberculosis, whatever diseases the person from whom the the pus came from may have had. 

 

Just to be clear, inoculation in reference to smallpox generally refers to variolation, the deliberate infection of someone with smallpox prior to Jenner's invention of the vaccine. 

 

But yes, Jenner's methods were crude and spread other diseases... I just wrote that in my last post:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post

 

Early smallpox vaccine with Jenner's vaccination was not at all like our modern vaccines with alcohol wipes and disposable needle and quality assurance tests as to what was in the vial.  Early vaccine travelled on the arm of a person.  Vaccinate one person, an they would get a blister on their arm.  Material from this blister could then be used to vaccinate someone else, and this was how the vaccine often traveled between cities and and countries and even across oceans.  Unfortunately syphilis and other diseases would all too often be passed along with the vaccine.  Occasionally actual smallpox was passed along!  Things improved somewhat when they started using a poor cow to incubate the disease, but there were still a lot of problems with that method too and not much control of sanitation and many poorly trained vaccinators at the time.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post  
 
And you did not note that the very last person to DIE from smallpox was a fully vaccinated healthcare worker in September 1977; she gave it to her mother, also vaccinated, who recovered. So much for the smallpox vaccine or any vaccine saving lives or preventing disease.

A little history research goes a long way. I sincerely doubt that you have read those books I posted, so please read them. They are written and researched by health professionals who have seen the damage that vaccines do throughout their long careers.

 

Yes, I noted that.  I make no claims that the vaccine was 100% effective.  That it was only her an her mother infected is a pretty good credit to the vaccines protecting all the people who cared for them and all the people actually working with the virus (she was working on something different upstairs from the virus, which is evidence of just how dangerous it was).  

 

Nope, haven't read the books.  My public library doesn't have them either.  Does either actually have any information that I haven't come across a million times online? 

post #153 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

I know how old it is. Did you know I answered someone? Do you have anything to add to what I or anyone said?

Honestly? I couldn't tell who you were addressing with your post. There have been quite a few really old posts resurrected lately - just seems kinda odd when these same threads were locked not too long ago.
post #154 of 178
Quote:
 Nope, haven't read the books.  My public library doesn't have them either.  Does either actually have any information that I haven't come across a million times online? 

I have no idea what you have read a million times online.

post #155 of 178

It's actually very easy to look up the history on how the small pox vaccine was created. But here I will help you out: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

 

I can also give you the name of the text books that I used to learn about the history of the first vaccines if you like.

post #156 of 178

Gee thanks, but if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that I posted to that ncbi link a week ago in post #146.

 

I have plenty of access to medical texts dating back to 1850 regarding smallpox and any other health concern or history from my father and his father, both doctors.


Why don't you post a link to wikipedia as you did last time?

post #157 of 178

Because there are plenty of un-bias sources out there on the internet that a person can post, key word is un-bias, why choose wikipedia? Because that is the source most people are familiar with and it's easy to access. Also to the comment if I was paying attention, I have a life, and I do not sit on the computer reading feeds on arguments such as this. I am a full time student in the medical field, single mom, and I own three businesses, onto of taking care of a 3700 square foot home and an equine breeding and show barn. If I do get a chance to sit on the computer I don't have time to read through to post #146, and if a person does sit there reading through hundreds of posts then they either need to get a job or a better hobby. 

post #158 of 178

Oh may I add I am a single mom who is paying her own way through school, I will graduate with 3 degrees in 2 years. Thank you, And since my schedule is getting busier due to the Christmas season I am leaving this conversation. Have a wonderful and Blessed Christmas!

post #159 of 178

I am a single mom, not by choice. I am widowed. Life is not easy. Being a parent is not easy. I have my own business running 30 yrs.

 

Yes, I have a life. We all have lives. Part of living is learning to be correct, to be very precise or end up wasting parts of our lives by correcting the mistakes that are made because we are not careful.

 

As for vaccines, we need to learn from the medical mistakes of the past unless we want to repeat those errors in our own children.


Edited by applejuice - 12/2/13 at 8:22pm
post #160 of 178
Thread Starter 

Based on the research I've done, Jenner's original vaccine really did not work and did not save any lives. I think the real reason that vaccines became so popular is because it was something the medical establishment could sell and make money from it. They can't sell someone's "immune system boosting life style choices" which fights off these diseases, but they can sell vaccine products.

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