If Vaccines Were Never Invented... - Page 3

[BeckyBird]

*
From:
[2007] Vaccines and Third World Countries by Hilary Butler

As for those of you who are so caught up on my wording "decline of measles"....I have to laugh. Please pay attention to the message, rather than mincing words. That is a distraction technique which causes folks to bicker, instead of focusing on the real issue at hand.

Because there are so few studies, here is an oldie but a goodie........scroll down to the blind mice article, directly below the bread.
http://books.google.com/books?id=pEw...age&q=&f=false

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Deborah

because infant mortality used to be huge...

and it was all due to vaccine preventable diseases...

like the summer runs (which killed vast numbers of babies)--

what we need are some infant mortality comparison charts, looking at the overall infant mortality in the U.S. from 1900 to 2009.

But just like the summer runs, really what killed a lot of these kids was dehydration. There is no vax nor has there been one (aside from the disastrous rotavirus vax that telescoped the babies intestines) for diarrhea. The babies survive this now because we have the ability to administer IV fluids. Same with vpd's. We administer IV fluids, take fever reducing medicine, add in liberal amounts of vit c....These are all things they did not have available 200 years ago.

[<<>>]

Originally Posted by wytchywoman

The babies survive this now because we have the ability to administer IV fluids. Same with vpd's. We administer IV fluids, take fever reducing medicine, add in liberal amounts of vit c....These are all things they did not have available 200 years ago.

This is one of the reasons that I feel very comfortable with my children not being vaccinate, because I know that it is treatable especially if complications arise.

[Deborah]

There are two different things called measles and somewhere up above the two got confused.

One variety can be handled with Vitamin A to prevent blindness in children.

The other variety, usually called Rubella, can cause all sorts of terrible injuries for babies in the womb. There are currently multiple approaches for preventing these injuries:

1) try to make sure that all children have rubella immunity by passing through the illness as children--this provides lifelong immunity and will protect babies. This approach can be supplemented by testing 10 year old girls and vaxing them if they haven't had rubella.

2) vaxing all children for rubella to try to interrupt circulation of the illness. this is usually supplemented by testing pregnant women for antibodies and vaxing them immediately after birth if they don't test positive. Unfortunately, this approach demonstrates, over and over, that the vaccine doesn't provide lifelong immunity, plus it guarantees that many babies will be exposed to rubella at birth from their mother shedding and even more so from breastfeeding.

3) the third approach is to abort the babies of women who were exposed to rubella during pregnancy. this results, unfortunately, in the abortion of many, many healthy babies, as rubella is not always a problem...

I'm not expressing any preferences, just providing background notes.

[MyLilPwny]

If vaccines weren't ever invented, perhaps the world's population would be even larger than it is now because there wouldn't be so many vaccine-induced deaths. Based on the materials that I've read through, I think the number of vaccine-induced deaths is probably in the millions. I do not think vaccines have ever saved any lives. It would be impossible to prove that vaccines have saved lives and there is no evidence that is persuading me to think that they might have saved any lives. There is plenty of evidence that vaccines have caused deaths and other damage though.

For the people throughout history who have survived through infectious diseases when everyone else around them had developed the diseases, the reason why these people were different is because they had stronger healthier immune systems; and proper nutrition was the most important factor in creating that.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird

As for those of you who are so caught up on my wording "decline of measles"....I have to laugh. Please pay attention to the message, rather than mincing words. That is a distraction technique which causes folks to bicker, instead of focusing on the real issue at hand.

????

I googled that because I was looking for the graph you referenced (I've seen it before, and wanted to see it again. I didn't find it.)

But then I found those studies (resulting from my search for the graph), and, yeah, they give me pause. I'm am honestly interested in hearing the non-vax interpretation of those studies, as I think they directly relate to the thread. I'm not trying to mince words

[BeckyBird]

Sorry Sunnmama, I hope I didn't offend you. I was actually
replying to Metis' comment at the end of her post.
I will try to find some more information as well. I read a few books by Hilary Butler, and some chapters deal with measles. Some of her writing is also documented on *********, but I did not want to reference that website. There have been arguments on MDC over that site, so I am trying to find sources other than that one. I might just have to open my book and type quotes right from the source!
I have also seen graphs on MDC before, but I forget where they were. I will try to find some of them soon.

[Cristiaz]

Originally Posted by ThereseReich

If vaccines weren't ever invented, perhaps the world's population would be even larger than it is now because there wouldn't be so many vaccine-induced deaths. Based on the materials that I've read through, I think the number of vaccine-induced deaths is probably in the millions. I do not think vaccines have ever saved any lives. It would be impossible to prove that vaccines have saved lives and there is no evidence that is persuading me to think that they might have saved any lives. There is plenty of evidence that vaccines have caused deaths and other damage though.

For the people throughout history who have survived through infectious diseases when everyone else around them had developed the diseases, the reason why these people were different is because they had stronger healthier immune systems; and proper nutrition was the most important factor in creating that.

[Otto]

Lacking an actual citation, it's impossible to evaluate this (Ms. Butler's) selective quotation. There's no question that corneal ulcerations caused by vitamin A deficiency can be treated with vitamin A if caught early enough. Actual blindness (3/60 or worse)? This quote doesn't bother to state the criterion (neither does it attribute it to the original).

See this early article from the British Journal of Opthamology (especially Fig. 19), the comments by Monnickendam & Darougar here (particularly points 2-4, explaining that postmeasles blindness does not correlate very well with nutritional status), and this comparison with later Tanzanian data (showing that improved measles immunization coverage corresponded to decreased corneal ulceration, in the face of no particular improvement in childhood nutrition; abstract only, unless one has access to the Elsevier backfile).

If Ms. Butler provides references, by all means, let's see the relevant one. But there's plenty of evidence to show that measles-related blindness does not boil down neatly into a vitamin A deficiency.

[JamesMama]

I thought the 'summer runs' was caused by spoiled food? They didn't have refrigeration and milk and cheese and stuff spoiled in the hot summer and caused babies to get sick. Hence the reason mothers were encouraged to nurse through 2 summers so that baby wasn't getting hot/spoiled milk.

I think proper sanitation and access to medical care would have taken care of most of the VPDs. Of course as time goes on we're going to be up a well known creek without a paddle because none of the new doctors will be able to recognize Chicken Pox or measles. I thought my DS had chicken pox once and the doctor I saw had to pull up a photo off of Wiki...seriously?

[BeckyBird]

Otto, I am glad you posted those articles. I read through a few pages, and found some interesting points....look at case #8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...041162/?page=6
"She was given vitamin A therapy according to the protocol, and within 48 hours both corneas were clear. Thereafter, she made an uneventful recovery."

I really wish there were more studies, where they used vitamins instead of drugs. But they are so few and far between. There are also theories of using intravenous vitamin C to treat many many illnesses, as well as many other alternative therapies that use nutrition and vitamins. Vitamins can be used to prevent, treat, and cure many diseases, I truly believe that. But I do understand why doctors are very hesitant to use these therapies, because it is almost like experimenting on patients. There is just so little knowledge about using alternative therapies, so they must go with what they know--administering vaccines and drugs to treat the disease. It is not their fault. That is what they were taught. But many of us believe there is a better way. We just need more studies and proof!

As for the Hilary Butler quote, I do have her book. I will pull it out tonight and try to find more information, because I searched all over the web and I can't find it there.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by ThereseReich

If vaccines weren't ever invented, perhaps the world's population would be even larger than it is now because there wouldn't be so many vaccine-induced deaths. Based on the materials that I've read through, I think the number of vaccine-induced deaths is probably in the millions. I do not think vaccines have ever saved any lives. It would be impossible to prove that vaccines have saved lives and there is no evidence that is persuading me to think that they might have saved any lives. There is plenty of evidence that vaccines have caused deaths and other damage though.

For the people throughout history who have survived through infectious diseases when everyone else around them had developed the diseases, the reason why these people were different is because they had stronger healthier immune systems; and proper nutrition was the most important factor in creating that.

can you give some citation for your millions of vaccine induced deaths?

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird

Sorry Sunnmama, I hope I didn't offend you. I was actually
replying to Metis' comment at the end of her post.
I will try to find some more information as well. I read a few books by Hilary Butler, and some chapters deal with measles. Some of her writing is also documented on *********, but I did not want to reference that website. There have been arguments on MDC over that site, so I am trying to find sources other than that one. I might just have to open my book and type quotes right from the source!
I have also seen graphs on MDC before, but I forget where they were. I will try to find some of them soon.

because ********* is not at all a reliable source. There is so much on that site that is just out and out lies that I could never believe one word that is written there.

[lovebug]

No i think the world would be a better place without vax's!!!

[BeckyBird]

Mommy, I said that I read her books. But I could not find any online quotes from Hilary's books. ********* is the only site I could find that actually quoted her book.

In this ONE instance, ********* IS reliable, because they quoted paragraphs directly from her book. A book that I actually own and have read, cover to cover. I did try to find another reference to her book online--because I KNOW how everybody feels about whale, but I could not find anything. Maybe Hilary's website would have her book quotes...I will check on that. I am already planning to open up her books and just start quoting directly from the pages. But that takes time, and I will try to do it later tonight. And let's remember one thing--this is not even an argument about some silly website!! This vaccine debate is much more important. So we should refocus on that.

[lovebug]

sorry i could not 'step away' from the thread :)

Measles was already on a decline before the vax was introduced.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/pertussis.htm

and from my research that is the case for most VPD. So how can someone say vax’s are a success when Mother Nature, sanitation, and nutrition is really what we should be thanking! We really don’t need to give the medical community a ‘God complex’ when its really not them, its us.

Disease IS here for a reason! It is to weed out the sick and allow for evolution to take place with the strongest of the strong to reproduce. IMHO I think we have disease to thank for ‘who we are today’ because it allowed the strong immune system people to live on and has since made the evolution of the human race stronger! We are interfering with that with vax’ing. It is causing ‘us’ to have false immunity and a false sense of safety. Therefore making our bodies less likely to defend itself. What is this going to do down the road? No one knows because NO ONE will study the side effects!

I think we need to look at Mother Nature and take note! Disease happens in the animal kingdom all the time! I don’t see them running around vax;ing them. Why? Because nature NEEDS to run its course!

Do I think the medical community is all bad? NO, but sometimes I think they puff up their chests and make us forget that we know our bodies best. I am thankful for the major advancements! However I do not think vax’ing is one of them…

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by lovebug

Measles was already on a decline before the vax was introduced.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/pertussis.htm

…

This is something I see a lot, and am trying to understand. From my understanding, the deaths from measles were on the decline, but not the incidence. Your graph is not labeled either way, but this one compares the incidence and mortality:

http://childhealthsafety.files.wordp...a1971-75_1.jpg

I do think it is a valid point that the deaths were on the decline--very likely due to better nutrition and medical care. But there are still countries and populations that do not have adequate nutrition and/or medical care, and in those places the vaccine could be life saving.

[Shenjall]

..but, would it not be better to establish better nutrition and healthcare? Would that not be more proactive as opposed to reactive?

[lovebug]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

This is something I see a lot, and am trying to understand. From my understanding, the deaths from measles were on the decline, but not the incidence. Your graph is not labeled either way, but this one compares the incidence and mortality:

http://childhealthsafety.files.wordp...a1971-75_1.jpg

I do think it is a valid point that the deaths were on the decline--very likely due to better nutrition and medical care. But there are still countries and populations that do not have adequate nutrition and/or medical care, and in those places the vaccine could be life saving.

I have an awesome chart some place... hmmm i will have to look for it when i get home from work... but as far as i can remember its the cases of them were on the decline along with the deaths...

can someone hepl with a link in the mean time???

[Jugs]

Originally Posted by lovebug

Disease IS here for a reason! It is to weed out the sick and allow for evolution to take place with the strongest of the strong to reproduce. IMHO I think we have disease to thank for ‘who we are today’ because it allowed the strong immune system people to live on and has since made the evolution of the human race stronger!

I don't necessarily *disagree* with this perspective, but I view it as viruses being biologically driven to survive; they have the best chance of replicating in a weaker body.