Charting to Avoid, November 2009 - Page 3

[momtokimari]

I keep forgetting to sub...

[RaraAvis]

?

Originally Posted by momtokimari

I keep forgetting to sub...

Hey, what IS subbing?

[annettemarie]

Subscribing.

And I'm glad that, in the midst of my craptastic day, I was able to make someone smile.

[GriffsKat]

Oh ladies thank you for reminding me not to complain. And I do mean that.

CD whatever here, starting up the hormonal mountain, expect to ovulate in a week or so, maybe, depending on how long it takes this time. I'm incredibly sarcastic today. I need chocolate.

[MovingMomma]

Welcome to all the newbies!

AnnetteMarie: I'm w/MW, sounds like O is a possibility. Don't give up temping, and I'd like to see your chart!

WWC: I don't think you're anywhere near O.

BBM: W/out CM drying up, I'd definitely wait for a stronger and longer shift before declaring O.

AFM: My temps are finally dropping and evening out a little. I'm expecting to O any day, and hoping it happens soon b/c it would work out great w/DH's schedule! My Chart.

[annettemarie]

Well, I haven't been charting, just remembering. Since sex is off the table until I have a cycle, I'm really just dabbling in temping. I am doing the little "course" on FF and will start charting once I get a period.

[hippy mum]

Doesn't tcoyf say that if you have creamy/sticky prior to O, or after O, on a regular basis, that is normal for that person? That we have to learn the difference between our "fertile" cf and our regular cf?
I don't know about WWC, but she's saying she has stretchy/creamy cf, but is supposed to count that as ew, becuase it stretches. I had that all last cycle, and put down ewcf because it stretched. But it was lotiony/stretchy, and some days sticky/stretchy. I'm going to give it a few more cycles, but for my last 3 cycles, that's what I had after O each time.
For me I can see a difference between my actual ewcf and the other stretchy cf. One is clear and one is like lotion, but it still stretches. This cycle for ex, I had 97.5 yesterday, which just going by temps, would seem like that day was O, not the previous days, but going by cf, there is no change for me. It's still going the same this cycle. Lotiony/stretchy stuff right now. Actual clear ewcf ended the other day at the first temp shift.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by bbrandonsmom

Doesn't tcoyf say that if you have creamy/sticky prior to O, or after O, on a regular basis, that is normal for that person? That we have to learn the difference between our "fertile" cf and our regular cf?

According to TOCYF, especially for CTA, sticky can be considered a BIP but creamy can not. Creamy CF has to be considered potentially fertile all the time. For sticky being your BIP you must have no dry days unless you are breastfeeding or have some other special circumstances where you go for long periods without O (like WWC) and have tracked your CF for at least 2 weeks without any interference and it has been dry and/or sticky that entire time. EWCF usually stretches at least an inch (Shannon will say TAoNFP says only 1/2 inch). If it doesn't stretch but is wet and/or slippery/lubricative, it is still considered ewcf. Sticky and creamy CF do not stretch like that. One of them, I can never remember if it's sticky or creamy, may form tiny peaks but that's not the same as stretching. I'm only going by how you all describe things on here. I haven't seen the CF so I can't really make a determination of whether or not it was stretchy. TCOYF says if it stretches an inch or more it's ewcf and you should always record the most fertile CF you observe.

CF works on a continuum. It starts out dry (or sticky if that's your BIP) and gets wetter and wetter as you get closer and closer to O. The reason I caution against saying that you had wetter or stretchy or whatever CF but know it's not your fertile CF when you are CTA is because any CF can be potentially fertile. Even if you normally have very long cycles with long periods of very fertile ewcf before O, there can always be that one time when you O a lot sooner than you expect. The only thing you can know about when you might O while CTA is when you are potentially fertile based on your CF. Doing anything other than treating any CF as potentially fertile until after O is taking a bigger risk of getting pg. That's all.

Things can change quickly and happen slowly. You could have that creamy/stetchy CF today, decide that's not fertile for you and dtd without protection only to discover you have ewcf tomorrow and O 4 days later. You can get pg from that. All sperm has to do is live long enough in CF to get into the cervix. Some sperm can survive and swim through sticky CF into the cervix. Once in there it doesn't matter what kind of CF you have. Sperm can survive for 5-6 days inside the cervix, uterus or fallopian tubes (Not sure exactly where they hang out while waiting for that egg. I've read a couple different things.). So, if you are CTA and really cannot afford to get pg right now, you should treat any CF as potentially fertile and act accordingly. Of course, if getting pg is not that big of a deal and you can take more risks, go ahead.

[NaturalMindedMomma]

Ok So I think I might be REALLY STUPID and REALLY SCREWED.

I played Russian Roullette and I think I might have LOST. UGH SOOOO STUPID.

So I tried to temp yesterday morning but my therm just kept beeping at me and not registering, so no temp yesterday. But this morning I temp and it's 97.7, I have the creamy but stretchy cervical mucous and we had sex without PROTECTION the other night. WTF. I truly thought being on cycke day 9, having the mirena JUST removed, AND EBFing would protect me.

OK So I am going to link my chart. Problem is, if I did ovulate, it could have been yesterday when I got NO temp??? I think I might have to get the morning after pill.

http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/2ab513

[wholewheatchick]

NMM: I wouldn't worry too much. I mean, it is a definite possibility, but having the Mirena removed, or going off BCP, can really mess with your CF because it wreaks havoc on the natural pH in your vagina and cervix. That is why TCOYF recommends DTD with condoms at least the entire first cycle, because it super difficult to judge your fertility based on CF. I mean, some women have NO problem whatsover and go right into 28 day textbook cycles the day after they stop hormonal BC, but most do not.

BBM: Yes, you are describing exactly what I sometimes get for CF. It seriously reminds me of snot! And this was absolutely opaque white, and it seemed very stick to me, but it stretched 1 inch. If I knew that I were closer to O, I might be more cautious with it, KWIM?

I agree with what MW said, but I think that even an awesome book like TCOYF can't account for every aberration in cycles. It is riskier, I suppose to count that sticky with a stretch, or creamy with a stretch, as being infertile CF, but I think that if you are sure enough for you, then it's ok. However, if a BFP resulted, I would count that as user error, not method error.

[Smylingeyz]

Someone was asking me how long my LP is, and I don't know what day you start the count from... is it the first day of temp rise? Still unsure of anything beyond the very basics.
And weird personal question - wondering if anyone else has this problem or if this is crazy. We hate using any kind of barrier, try to just use the infertile times... but whenever there's a green light he TOTALLY has no interest, and the minute the light goes red he's all over me. Literally. Like clockwork. I'm mad cuz I'm on CD9 and still in phase 1, when usually by the time AF stops I already have sticky or egg white CF already. Plus I've been open to sex even though I'm usually not cuz of our situation, so now I feel so rejected and stupid. Perhaps it's just a deeper issue that is OT for this thread, but wondering if this is normal for anyone else. It's not like anything about my situation with this guy has ever been anything close to normal anyway.

[annettemarie]

I'm feeling crampy today, which explains why I was feeling homicidal yesterday, . I honestly think my body is so used to a 28 day cycle that it started counting off from 10/13, the day of the D&E. So despite the fact that I bled for two weeks instead of my usual 4 days, my body is just carrying on with business as usual and a 28 day cycle. I'll be interested to see if my period comes next Tuesday. Even more interesting if it comes Friday, because I've always started my cycle on a Friday.

The body's capacity for healing constantly amazes me. In a way, I'm glad. All parts seem to be in good working order, and the sooner I have a period, the sooner we can start having sex, temping, etc, and the easier it will be when we do try to have a baby next year.

[MarineWife]

Torre ~ I don't know what having the Mirena taken out might do. I assume it would depend at least some on where you were in your "cycle" before having it removed.

Smyling ~ You start counting your lp from the first day of the thermal shift.

What your dh is doing is normal, imo. My dh is always a lot more attracted to me when I'm fertile. I also find him a lot more attractive. When you are fertile you release pheromones that attract men because the ultimate purpose of sex is to reproduce. When you are not fertile you are less attractive, subconsciously, to men. It's kind of a waste of time, energy and sperm to have sex when you aren't fertile. That's also why women in constant close quarters cycle together. It's a reproductive competition thing.

I remember reading a study once that showed that women are attracted to different kinds of men during different phases of their cycles. If I remember correctly, women were more attracted to strong, masculine men during their fertile phase and more attracted to more caring, gentle, kind, effeminate men at other times.

Talking about whether or not different types of CF are personally fertile has brought up a big issue of mine. Let me premise by saying that I don't think anyone here is doing this charting thing the wrong way. We all probably take our own little shortcuts or bend the rules some for ourselves. However, this type of difference in opinion is exactly why I get so irked when I see people relying solely on charting programs to tell them when they've Oed rather than learning how to recognize their fertility signs and interpret charts for themselves. This is exactly the reason I recommend against using the FF Advanced O detector. The FF people say their advanced O detector is based on data they've collected from charts on their website. Since they can't be sure that everyone understood and followed the same rules of charting, they can't be certain that their data is accurate. That makes their advanced O detector inaccurate. Like I said in the beginning, this has nothing to do with anyone on here. It's just one of those charting pet peeves of mine that I used to run into a lot on FF.

[momtokimari]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

What your dh is doing is normal, imo. My dh is always a lot more attracted to me when I'm fertile. I also find him a lot more attractive. When you are fertile you release pheromones that attract men because the ultimate purpose of sex is to reproduce. When you are not fertile you are less attractive, subconsciously, to men. It's kind of a waste of time, energy and sperm to have sex when you aren't fertile. That's also why women in constant close quarters cycle together. It's a reproductive competition thing.

I remember reading a study once that showed that women are attracted to different kinds of men during different phases of their cycles. If I remember correctly, women were more attracted to strong, masculine men during their fertile phase and more attracted to more caring, gentle, kind, effeminate men at other times.

That's really interesting!

Talking about whether or not different types of CF are personally fertile has brought up a big issue of mine. Let me premise by saying that I don't think anyone here is doing this charting thing the wrong way. We all probably take our own little shortcuts or bend the rules some for ourselves. However, this type of difference in opinion is exactly why I get so irked when I see people relying solely on charting programs to tell them when they've Oed rather than learning how to recognize their fertility signs and interpret charts for themselves. This is exactly the reason I recommend against using the FF Advanced O detector. The FF people say their advanced O detector is based on data they've collected from charts on their website. Since they can't be sure that everyone understood and followed the same rules of charting, they can't be certain that their data is accurate. That makes their advanced O detector inaccurate. Like I said in the beginning, this has nothing to do with anyone on here. It's just one of those charting pet peeves of mine that I used to run into a lot on FF.

I use my husband... I chart and then give it to him to worry about. I'm sure that's cheating... But he's better at it than I am. And I am rarely the one to initiate so it's really his problem. Terrible, I know.

[Marlet]

Originally Posted by Smylingeyz

whenever there's a green light he TOTALLY has no interest, and the minute the light goes red he's all over me. Literally. Like clockwork.

I'm not charting, just following along since I get to go back to it soon! Anyhow, yes it's absolutely normal. Hence DD2 and now DD3. In fact that's how I knew to test when I did this time around. Things were oddly similar to DD2's conception. For me I can get a heads up. I get super super interested (as in call him home from work 2 or 3 times on top of enjoying him after work ) a couple days BEFORE ovulation. I think that's why I have 3 girls...timing wise Shettles would love me.

[hippy mum]

momto-that's great you give your chart to dh and let him figure out if he's safe or not.

MW-that's why I'm paper charting too. Ff is just strange some times. If I keep it on advanced, it's completely different than the paper chart or on the fam method on ff. I don't like where ff puts my cover line sometimes, it's too close to my highest temp on the advanced method.

WWc-yes, snot. And snot is runny and stretchy. So, going by the rule of anything that stretches more than an inch-I pretty much always have ewcf since the mc. Some days it's clear-around O, but the rest of the time it's like snot, with maybe I guess 3 days total in my cycle of either dry or sticky. If this continues on I supose I should find an ob to see what's up.

As far as taking chances, the only time we ever do not wd, is after a clear O, usually into the second week after.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by momtokimari

I use my husband... I chart and then give it to him to worry about. I'm sure that's cheating... But he's better at it than I am. And I am rarely the one to initiate so it's really his problem. Terrible, I know.

I think that's great assuming your dh knows the rules and knows how to interpret the chart. It's relying on a flawed computer program that annoys me.

BBM (and WWC) ~ If you are getting weeks and weeks of ewcf, you may have a hormonal imbalance, most likely too much estrogen since it's increasing estrogen that makes cf wetter and wetter. That may be normal after a m/c. I've been having a lot more ewcf than in the past. The last 2 O cycles I went straight from sticky to ewcf. Last cycle I think I had 9 days of ewcf before I Oed. Mine was exactly like snot, too. EWCF does not have to be clear. It can be white and/or yellowish and/or pink tinged, slightly colored or opaque. It's the texture(?) that matters most, stretchy and/or slippery.

More on the pheromone thing, when I got pg back in May from dh not withdrawing at all, I was (obviously) very fertile. He had been really good about withdrawing every other time we dtd when I was no where near O. He sort of lost his head that one time, I guess.

I forgot to explain the reasoning behind the choices women made during different phases of their cycles. The thought was that women chose stronger more masculine men when fertile because they would be better able to make strong babies. They chose gentler more effeminate men at other times because they seemed to be better at caring for babies.

[Smylingeyz]

Ok well then my LP is normally 13 days. And it hasn't changed with the heavier periods either so I dunno. I've started eating tofu pretty often and never did before, I'll cut it out completely for awhile and see if it changes anything.
And thanks everyone for your feedback about the issue with DH, it's so awesome to hear it's not weird! I knew about the whole pheromones and attraction/biological drive thing, but I didn't realize it was so strong. Guess I always assumed guys were always in the mood but extra at fertile times, so was confused when he pretty much loses interest at the infertile times. Speaking of which, CD9 and I just started getting sticky CF, and just a few minutes ago he commented that he didn't get why he was suddenly very in the mood, I hadn't even told him I was starting to get fertile CF yet! Well now that I know it's normal I can sit back and appreciate the intricacy of God's creation... although it would've been nice if the instinct came up only when it was practical to get pregnant.

[AnnieA]

Marinewife: I agree with you about the issues with relying on FF to interpret your charts. I have always said that if you don't know how to paper chart, you have a good chance of finding yourself in a position that you were not intending, i.e. pg. You're right that if people rely on the advanced O detector on FF, they're relying on potentially flawed data. I know that I must be totally screwing up their numbers because I have been charting on a TTC site for 26 cycles now and I have not gotten pg!

NMM: I would say that your situation is probably similar to having an annov breakthrough bleed with the bleeding from having the Mirena removed. It doesn't surprise me that you could have potentially O'd on CD 9. Your bleeding wasn't from ovulating but from having the hormones removed. Just keep temping and see where things end up.

I agree about being more interested around O time. DH smells so good to me during that time that I could just eat him up!

[Belle]

I guess I'll add my chart. http://www.fertilityfriend.com/ttc/index.php
Would my CF be all messed up too after having a Paragard? W/ the Paragard it seemed like I always had EWCM when I didn't have AF. Not sure what to make of my CF this cycle. I figure we'll play it safe and use condoms until after I have a temp shift. DD2 was conceived because I was confused about my CF.