how long to heal from almost a lifetime of vegetarianism?

[sisteeesmama]

I got to thinking about this reading another thread about knowing when to switch to TF.
I was veg. as a child since my mom was and only ate a tiny amount of meat throughout my childhood with friends families or my grandparents. I didn't really like it, but we were ethical vegetarians so it didn't seem wrong to me to eat it sometimes. Until I became a teen and then became an ethical vegan for several years before going back to vegetarianism.
I have only been doing TF for about 2 1/2 years and still mentally struggle with it. I still sometimes think veggies are the healthier route and have to wait until I start feeling bad before I "remember" that I need the meat.

How long will it take me to really be in a state of health if I stay on the TF track consistently?

[FairyRae]

We are all so very unique...I don't think there is one single answer to this. Cutting out gluten for me was huge and I think had a great impact on my health, and my son's. Eating all the TF sourdough whole wheat bread, soaked, sprouted etc. would not be 'healthy' for him or I, IMO. Adding in meat has made me feel tons better, but I'm continually working to find what feels the absolute BEST to me diet wise. I think it is an individual journey. I feel worlds better eating meat, good fats, fermented foods galore and veggies and fruits. I feel better eating low to no grains. This is me, today. Who knows what I'll be eating tomorrow?

I was vegetarian for 12 years--it has been a little over a year since I added poultry and into my diet, along w/ lots of fermented foods, and cut out gluten, dairy, soy and corn. And it's been around 6-8 months that I've been eating mostly TF (red meats, bone broths, soaked/sprouted grains, beans, nuts, seeds etc). And I've been grain free for a few weeks now. I feel amazing. I feel like a different person. I know I've still got healing to do, but I feel vibrant. I feel very healthy. I haven't gotten sick in a long while (unlike my old self) and when I do feel under the weather--I feel slightly under the weather for a day or so and that's it (kind of how my old self used to feel all.the.time.) Figuring out what foods make me feel best, beyond the basics of TF (avoiding grains and dairy for the moment, eating lots of fermented stuff and protein and fats, etc) is also integral to my feeling good.

We each have our own journey--maybe just follow your gut--what feels like the next best step in your journey and your diet? I find that when I need/want a change, all the info I didn't know I was looking for pops up right before my eyes (like here on MDC--all these grainfree/paleo threads have been motivating and inspiring!)

Sorry to ramble on--HTH in some way!! Good luck!

[ursusarctos]

I wonder this too. I grew up veggie but not really whole/nourishing foods based (we ate a lot of soymilk and "healthy" cereal, amy's frozen foods, tofu, crackers, chips, canned vegetables...). As a young child I don't think I was any sicklier than most (though I was veeery spacy and "out of it" for the longest time, wonder if that was related to our diet) but when I got to middle school and all through high school I would get colds constantly. As I got older and lived on my own I incorporated limited meat into my diet (like maybe a few times a week or less) and then realized, after visiting my vegetarian family for a few months and not eating meat, that I felt way more vital and strong when I had some meat in my diet. So for the past couple years or so we've been eating primarily (nourishing, whole) vegetarian food with meat a few times a week and some tf elements, and I thought that was fine for me. But then recently my TCM practitioner recommended that I eat meat or eggs every day and after about a month and a half of doing that I feel much more... solid than I have ever felt. I gained the weight I felt like I should gain and I no longer feel like I will blow over in the next cold wind. It's not like I was ever underweight and I haven't really gained much weight, but I feel so much more substantial and well nourished. It's taken some getting used to to incorporate so much meat into my diet - I keep having the feeling like I'm overdoing it or something, though my diet is still light on meat compared to most people. I think that feeling comes from the ingrained idea when I was growing up that meat is sort of unhealthy and should only be eaten occasionally if at all.
So yeah, I really wonder how much of my spaciness/sickliness as a child and feeling of low energy/wispiness as an adult has had to do with my childhood diet... I totally believe that for some whole-food veg*n diets are healthy and beneficial, but for me they clearly are not, so they probably weren't when I was a kid either. I just wonder, if I had just gotten fed some bone broth as a child, would I have been sick less and grown up more "solid"? Can't know, obviously. My DP ate a mostly whole foods meat-and-potatoes diet as a kid and is just so solid... and he seems to do just fine with a vegetarian diet as an adult, unlike me. Would I be better with one now if I had been fed a more nourishing, meat-inclusive diet as a kid? It's like I wasn't "built up" enough as a kid and therefore need more nourishing foods now than someone who got more real food as a kid. Or then I just have the type of body that needs meat, and that's that. Either way I don't think I'll ever "heal" to the point that I don't need meat anymore. I think either I just didn't get enough as a kid or my body type demands it. Eating meat *is* my way of being healed, by bringing my diet and my needs in synch.
I do expect that as I eat a good diet over time my general health and vitality with become stable and it will take less to throw me off balance. Like maybe if I eat a whole-foods, meat-inclusive diet for a few years then a couple months of vegetarianism won't throw me off like it does now. Who knows...
Anyway, I'm rambling now I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

[vegmom]

I think you have to look at your health and try to fix any deficiencies that you may have.

I have done a TF diet for 6years after 12-13yrs of veggie/veganism. Trying to do it all with food just was not working that great for me. I turned to supplements as well and am finally starting to feel strong.

I went grain free 1.5years ago and a lot of my digestive issues went away. Gas and bloating is non-existent. I have yeast issues but I never thought that going grain free would benefit me as much as it has.

You may want to check how well you are absorbing vitamins. Because of yeast I have problems with this. (I believe one of the main causes of my yeast problem was vegetarianism.)

I am severely anemic even though I eat greens nearly everyday and eat liver, organ meat and grassfed red meat. I found myself lacking b vitamins as well when I fell into a seasonal depression and could not keep myself from crying. I eat plenty of foods that are high in Vit. B but when I got the supplement I felt like a new person even on those dark and rainy days. Vitamin D is the same. I thought I was getting enough because I get outside daily for 30-45 min. but when I got the supplements I was not getting sick when everyone else around me is.

Try fixing your deficiencies with food but if that does not work, reach for the supplements.

Work on improving your digestion first since food is your fuel.

[sisteeesmama]

Thanks for the responses and I do relate in some way to each of them.

The supplements might have to make there way into my day*to*day lifestyle because I feel EXACTLY like you were describing!

I guess I just need to tune in more and follow the clues and the huge signs!

[FairyRae]

Supps have been a big part of my healing...although I'm thrilled I've been able to get most things through foods. Here is a list of what I 'take' each day: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...71&postcount=8

HTH!

[vegmom]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

Supps have been a big part of my healing...although I'm thrilled I've been able to get most things through foods. Here is a list of what I 'take' each day: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...71&postcount=8

HTH!

FairyRae: that is almost the same vitamin list that I take. I also take chlorella for chelating mercury as well as cilantro. I also take natural mixed tocopherol vitamin E.

[FairyRae]

Too cool vegmom! Are you nursing? I'm wary of chelating anything while nursing my toddler--I do sometimes add in a green powder mix w/ various seaweeds and wheatgrass etc--there may chlorella in there... I plan to add in kombucha as soon as he's weaned (I've heard it really mobilizes toxins as well, and to be cautious while nursing if you've got amalgams like me )! Oooo, and I'm thinking to add in young coconut water kefir--I've read it actually pulls mercury and other metals out and takes them out of your system as well (not exactly sure how...)

I love whole food vitamins/minerals! Woo hoo!

[Chouette]

This post hits home for me, too. Thanks for asking the question! I have been a vegetarian for 20 years, and about a month ago, after a little web research because of my daughter's poor dental health, and after coincidentally checking out "Nourishing Traditions" I bought some grassfed beef and had myself some beef stew (unfortunately made with veggie broth because it's all I had on hand). I tried to find some grassfed beef bones to start out by making bone broth, but I couldn't find any!

Much of the information in that book, and on websites I have found since, made so much sense to me about the way I had been feeling for the last decade--just random observations about my skin, my joints, etc. Really, if it didn't resonate so much, I'd still be vegetarian. I still deal with the daily guilt of not finding this information before my daughter was born, and now she is almost 3 and only just now getting everything that she needs. We've always been a whole foods, whole fat kind of family, but oh! the amount of soy and grains in our diet! But I can't let that keep me from moving forward, newly armed.

I already feel better. And when I go back to old behaviors (um...like eating too much refined sugar on Halloween), I REALLY feel it. I've always wanted give up refined sugar and eat less wheat, and only after finding this new information, have I been so motivated to really do it.

It is still hard sometimes, to deal with the meat. I grew up with all parts of the animal in my diet and in my mother's kitchen, but after 20 years, it's hard not to have little moments of revulsion. But then I sort of shake it off and I guess my inner homesteader kicks in and I embrace it. And I still strongly oppose CAFO's and any other sort of animal "industry", so for me, it's ethically pastured meat or nothing. I never thought in a million years that I'd ever be mail-ordering animal parts through the internet. I still have not "come out" to some of my vegetarian/vegan friends. It's hard not to feel as though it might come off as "cultish" if I try to explain, "well, I read this book, see..."

I also understand that "The Vegetarian Myth" is an excellent resource. I haven't read the book, but I did read the excerpt on the author's website and again, her philosophy really resonated with me.

[sisteeesmama]

Thanks so much for the list of supplements, I have most of them, now its a matter of putting them in my mouth, lol!

Chouette, I could have written your post almost! I had already started to learn some things about TF while preg., but was already overwhelmed with studying up for my impending UC and being in my first preg. that TF was not really a priority, until my daughter teeth cam in only partially formed!

Thanks for sharing and I hope we all find the physical healing we are looking for!

[vegmom]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

Too cool vegmom! Are you nursing? I'm wary of chelating anything while nursing my toddler--I do sometimes add in a green powder mix w/ various seaweeds and wheatgrass etc--there may chlorella in there... I plan to add in kombucha as soon as he's weaned (I've heard it really mobilizes toxins as well, and to be cautious while nursing if you've got amalgams like me )! Oooo, and I'm thinking to add in young coconut water kefir--I've read it actually pulls mercury and other metals out and takes them out of your system as well (not exactly sure how...)

I love whole food vitamins/minerals! Woo hoo!

yes I am nursing and this is a big struggle that I am going through. My daughter is five and I am restricting her and we do short nursing sessions every other day. Through the breastmilk she will be getting the supplements that I am taking to chelate. As well as the probiotics and good beneficial flora that help eliminate the toxins out of the body.

The mercury going through the digestive tract is better than injected through vaccines. We did not vaccinate so that is less of a load on her.

I have water kefir grains and do coconut water kefir several times a week. It is too expensive to do daily. I love, it tastes great!

[vegmom]

Originally Posted by Chouette

Much of the information in that book, and on websites I have found since, made so much sense to me about the way I had been feeling for the last decade--just random observations about my skin, my joints, etc. Really, if it didn't resonate so much, I'd still be vegetarian. I still deal with the daily guilt of not finding this information before my daughter was born, and now she is almost 3 and only just now getting everything that she needs. We've always been a whole foods, whole fat kind of family, but oh! the amount of soy and grains in our diet! But I can't let that keep me from moving forward, newly armed.

I feel a lot of guilt as well. When my first dd was a baby she cried so much I did not know what was wrong with her. I actually thought I broke her somehow. Years later I realized that her behaviour changed when we started to go more TF and replaced the soy foods with real foods. Initially I thought that she was growing out of her "crying" stage. Only since learning more about soy and fake soy products and MSG did I put it all together.

I would still be vegetarian if it was not for DD1 symptoms.

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by vegmom

yes I am nursing and this is a big struggle that I am going through. My daughter is five and I am restricting her and we do short nursing sessions every other day. Through the breastmilk she will be getting the supplements that I am taking to chelate. As well as the probiotics and good beneficial flora that help eliminate the toxins out of the body.

The mercury going through the digestive tract is better than injected through vaccines. We did not vaccinate so that is less of a load on her.

I know this is such a tough line to walk. I've been working on adding in iodine to supplement myself and ds, although he does not take everything I do to support detox pathways, so I'm just hopeful that the benefits outweigh the negatives, and that he is getting enough supportive vits/minerals through my milk that he won't get overloaded w/ bromine, etc. (as I've read here how iodine can mobilize toxins). These are tough calls to make for sure!! (And I would think it wouldn't be as worrisome when you are nursing so infrequently--my ds is only 2.5 and still nurses a lot every day. I think of my milk as his multivitamin cocktail )

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by vegmom

I would still be vegetarian if it was not for DD1 symptoms.

I am so grateful for my ds's food sensitivities as it lead me towards a path of healing, and to TF. They've been an enormous blessing in disguise!

[Chouette]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

I know this is such a tough line to walk. I've been working on adding in iodine to supplement myself and ds, although he does not take everything I do to support detox pathways, so I'm just hopeful that the benefits outweigh the negatives, and that he is getting enough supportive vits/minerals through my milk that he won't get overloaded w/ bromine, etc. (as I've read here how iodine can mobilize toxins). These are tough calls to make for sure!! (And I would think it wouldn't be as worrisome when you are nursing so infrequently--my ds is only 2.5 and still nurses a lot every day. I think of my milk as his multivitamin cocktail )

I'm still nursing my almost 3yo as well, and have been hoping the very same thing. I'm very glad I don't have any fillings in my teeth or I'd probably stop the kombucha--I've been reading lately that it's not a good idea when you're nursing and have a mouth full of mercury. But I've only read that about kombucha and not the other probiotics.

With regard to mercury in vaccinations, I remember a couple of years ago I was seeing my doctor for something and she was encouraging me to get a flu shot, and that if I got one for my daughter, I should ask for the mercury-free one. What kind of craziness is that--why is there mercury at all? We didn't, and don't get flu shots anyway.

FairyRae, how did you decide to go grain-free and how is it helping you? I'm struggling with this.

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by Chouette

I've been reading lately that it's not a good idea when you're nursing and have a mouth full of mercury. But I've only read that about kombucha and not the other probiotics.

I've read the same thing--that all other probiotics are totally fine. I skip the kombucha b/c I've got fillings, and am planning to reintro it after ds is done nursing.

Originally Posted by Chouette

FairyRae, how did you decide to go grain-free and how is it helping you? I'm struggling with this.

I've toyed w/ the idea for a while, and have been gluten and corn free (along w/ dairy and soy free) for over a year and a half. I recently got into making baked goods w/ ground seeds and nut flours along w/ coconut flour, and have been reading various paleo threads and blogs for a while. Learning about the SCD and GAPS diets kind of put me over the edge. I was thinking of doing one of them, but don't know that I want to go that far. But learning about them really inspired me to try and drop grains and sugars (although I still do all fruits and honey, and use stevia as well for sweetening). There have also been multiple grain-free focused threads here on MDC lately which have been inspiring as well.

The more I read about grains, the less I think they are beneficial to humans. I've read that grains can cause lots of diseases and illnesses, and have read numerous personal anecdotes about how dropping grains cured various folks of chronic ailments. I am no expert, but googling anything paleo or grainfree will bring up lots of reasons why NOT to eat grains.

Personally, when I eat *too many* grains (for me, more than a serving a day), I feel bloated, and sometimes gain a little (unwanted) weight. Maybe not even weight, but just extra bloating around my middle. The moment I drop grains I lose the bloating within a couple of days. (I've used this strategy thoughout the past year whenever I wasn't feeling so great or feeling bloated--stop eating grains, suddenly feel better and not bloated.) The last time I dropped the grains (only a few weeks ago) I kept them out of my diet. I didn't notice a huge difference, until I added them back in (just some brown rice), and felt groggy and headachey and just crappy in general. Also, without grains, I no longer have random food cravings (I used to get extreme snack cravings in the afternoon and would kind of binge on whatever I could get my hands on--definitely eating more than needed, but not necessarily feeling satisfied). And I don't ever limit myself w/ food (but remain mostly TF and free of ds's allergens), but when I ate grains I seemed to spend a lot more time eating when I wasn't hungry. I'm not sure why. I just feel more satisfied for longer w/out the grains--maybe I'm eating more fat now? Sorry I'm not being more specific. I just feel really really good--lots of energy, moreso than before going grain free. I'm still a newbie to it all, so do check the archives here--there are multiple grain free and paleo threads w/ links to some pretty convincing articles on why grainfree is good for many folks...

Here are a couple of threads on this:
The Doing our Best Paleolithic support thread
Is there a current grain free support thread?
Grain Free Meals Thread
GrainFree/SugarFree Support?

HTH!

[sisteeesmama]

All that stuff about grain free is so true for me too. When I eat them now I bloat. I get a foggy head. I feel lame. When I cut them out I feel alive again. But they are everywhere.
And I feel guilt about not doing baking for my dd as that is something imagined doing for her as a mama. Just classic things like cookies and homemade cakes and stuff. IT's hard for me to balance these feelings even knowing what I know....

[vegmom]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

All that stuff about grain free is so true for me too. When I eat them now I bloat. I get a foggy head. I feel lame. When I cut them out I feel alive again. But they are everywhere.
And I feel guilt about not doing baking for my dd as that is something imagined doing for her as a mama. Just classic things like cookies and homemade cakes and stuff. IT's hard for me to balance these feelings even knowing what I know....

Yes I feel guilty too! There are a lot of baking recipes using nut flours but my kids can't take those to school. Nut flours are costly as well. Some coconut flour recipes do turn out but the texture is different and kids are picky about that kind of stuff. There are baking recipes using squashes but I have not tried them. Flax is used in baking with good results. From what I have read the omega fats in flax are not damaged in normal baking temperatures. But I am not so certain that is true. Bottled flax oil has to be carefully handled and refrigerated so the oil does not go rancid. I use flax in baking very sparingly.

[FairyRae]

I bake, I make everything for my ds (and me), I'm just finding ways to do it *without* grains, using seed/nut flours and coconut flour (my fave!). Dealing w/ food sensitivities has taught me *anything* is possible. Pizza, cookies, cakes, etc. are all possible on a no-grain diet. Check out http://healthyindulgences.blogspot.com and http://elanaspantry.com for some awesome recipes that include lots of delicious baked goods that can be made totally TF and grain free. I sub honey in place of the agave in a lot of elana's recipes and use coconut oil in place of the grapeseed oil (you could totally use butter if you can tolerate it). Check the grainfree meals thread linked above as well. There is also lots in the archives here as far as gluten/grain free recipes in the TF forum and the allergies forum.

No need for deprivation, *ever* IMO! DS helps me bake all the time...

[Chouette]

Oh, sisteeesmama, that is exactly how I feel, too. That's where I'm missing out on some "tradition", too. But she does love the coconut flour/honey muffins I made for her, so I know it's just a matter of time before we create new baking traditions. I'll experiment with my gingerbread recipe next. And all that flour in the house (we have 4 kinds of wheat flour in the house now because I did bake a lot) can be used to make salt dough ornaments and playdough for the holidays! And my husband will never be grain free, so I'll still bake sourdough for him. And I have a feeling that I'll still make pies with good flour once or twice a year.

Thanks for the links and your story, FairyRae. I have experienced some of this, as I'd give it up for several days, then the day after I eat some grain (even properly prepared barley in a beef stew) I feel my joints all inflamed again. I don't think I'll give up dairy unless I need to (for a future child or something like that), so I don't think I'd be entirely Paleo. But the information on the sites and on some of the Paleo food blogs I've been reading is helpful.

I'm still trying to bring my daughter around to meat. So far, it's just bacon (who can resist?). And dairy and lots of butter. She gets CLO in smoothies. And whatever she gets through breastmilk.

This has been a great supportive thread for me, thanks, mamas! I'm in such a different place than I was a month ago, and I thought I was so on top of everything then. I've got a long journey ahead of me.