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Yes, I will take no for an answer Update #32

post #1 of 68
Thread Starter 
I didn't mean to write a novel, sorry!

I guess I'm looking for support, and to know I'm not alone in the way I parent my children.

For the first time I've come up against disapproval from people I care about. I've had disapproval of my parenting choices before, had people tell me how to get my kid to sleep in her own room, poop in the potty with the promise of stickers, etc.. and it never phased me because they weren't people whose approval I necessarily needed or wanted.

But now a good friend doesn't like how I am disciplining my daughter. She isn't saying this directly, but is suggesting books and web sites, pointing out people are 'good with discipline', talking about the research against permissive parenting, interfering with my redirection of my daughter.

Twice she witnessed my daughter refusing my requests, and me going along with the refusal. Once was in the grocery store; I told DD we needed to get to the produce section. DD didn't say anything but simply walked over to the lobster tank and watched them. So I joined her. The lobsters were interesting, DD is too young to resist such a site, and we weren't in a hurry. A minute or two later I asked if she was ready to go to the produce section now, she said yes, and off we went to get our veggies. DFs mouth dropped. You know, the whole ignoring a request/defiance of parent thing, and me asking DD if she was ready to move on rather than just telling her what to do.

The second was when DD was resting on the couch. She got up before I expected her to and I told her to lie down for longer. DD simply said 'no' to which DF responded with a sharp intake of breath. I asked DD why she didn't want to lie down and she said she had rested long enough and wasn't tired any more. Sounded like a good reason to me, and she didn't seem tired, so I said OK.

That's when all the general comments about discipline began.

I guess it just makes me sad that my good friend and I don't see eye to eye on this, and seems to distance us from each other a little. I didn't feel as comfortable talking with her about parenting issues, which my life pretty much revolves around these days, because she just didn't seem to get where I was coming from. And it's hard that a good friend doesn't show confidence in such a huge part of my life at the moment.

I can see if DD was hell on wheels, but she was generally pretty cooperative and pleasant. DF was here for a week and during that time DD had one short melt down (while she was with DH and I was showering), played nicely with her brother, helped me around the house, didn't resist bed time. She's just about to turn three and that second example is the only time she said 'no' to me the whole week! DS hasn't really gotten into toddler behavior yet, he's more like a baby than a toddler. So DF wasn't reacting to difficult behavior in children, but my style of interaction. I did respond immediately and firmly when DD did something unsafe, so it's not like I'm totally lax, just not authoritarian when I don't see a need to be.

I may bring this up with DF a little later, but right now I just need some support! DF has no children, so she's never navigated being with two kids under three 24/7, or had to test her ideas or assumptions about how adults should be around children. I guess I'm just looking for acknowledgment that it's OK, healthy even, for kids to have some control and choice in their lives, that obedience isn't a desired outcome in kids, and that it's tough when friends don't support us in our style of child raising. Especially that last one.
post #2 of 68
you sound like a fabulous mama, and sorry, but your friend is in for a rude awakening when she has kids! I was reading along, feeling sad that your friendship would probably disintegrate a little over time if she was raising her children so very differently than you, but then I read that she doesn't even HAVE kids yet, and I just sort of smiled to myself.

I'd take it with a grain of salt, and maybe even suggest a few of your own resources, as it sounds like she's somewhat interested in childrearing just operating on preconceived notions of what kids should and shouldn't be allowed to get away with.

fwiw, I have the same type of relationship with my kids, and while my parents see it as "spoiling" them, we all know, in our family, that our way works really well for all of us. of course there are times when I wished they'd just answer "yes ma'am!" to my orders, but we have a much better relationship than that.
post #3 of 68
I don't see how your examples are "permissive parenting". I don't believe in instant and blind obedience. I don't want robots. I want children who will grow up and become intelligent adults who can think and reason. I think her explanation of why she didn't want to lay down anymore was thoughtful and sounded respectful.
post #4 of 68
I have the same type of relationship with my children and am confident and comfortable with the idea that I'm treating them with respect and letting them know that their wants and their comfort are important.

It really does make life easier if you go along with them sometimes and I don't see anything wrong with it at all. The child feels like they have some control and they are happy and feel like they're having fun with their mum or dad.

I personally hate the view that parents are right all the time and that children should always do as their told, when their told, by a parent or any adult for that matter. I told my dh a long time ago that I want my kids to question authority. I don't want my children to think that they have to do something just because a grownup says so. There has to be a better reason than just because someone says so. Children are people, and all people deserve to be treated with respect.

If I had some links, I would post them so you could respond to your friend but the truth is it is what feels right to me and that's really all that matters. I think if a child free person gave me discipline advice I would and and maybe
post #5 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by onemomentatatime View Post
The second was when DD was resting on the couch. She got up before I expected her to and I told her to lie down for longer. DD simply said 'no' to which DF responded with a sharp intake of breath. I asked DD why she didn't want to lie down and she said she had rested long enough and wasn't tired any more. Sounded like a good reason to me, and she didn't seem tired, so I said OK.
What I would comment on (and I'm not passing judgement on how you parent - just using this as a different way to communicate your friends feelings on the matter) was if you were asking your daughter to stay on the couch (and if you used the word "please"), or if you were telling her to stay there. *I* would not accept the word no as a reply without a "thank you" (I ALWAYS say please and thank you to my kids) when I am making a request, and if I told my daughter to stay there and she refused, I would then ask her why she's refusing. If the answer is reasonable (ie. she's just not tired anymore), then I would not push the matter.

That said, I think your friend was completely out of line.

I recently ended a friendship with someone who used to constantly try to give me parenting advice and telling me how my daughter is going to be when she turns 2, but with who's parenting techniques I strongly disagree with (letting her 8 month old baby scream in fear of a dog because "she'll get over it", using time outs on her 3 year old daughter for silly things that 3 year olds do, but not responding to her daughters extreme rudeness in the way she sometimes talks, then complaining about her daughter being "only 3", etc). She recently told me (very nicely) that I said something that could come off as condescending when my intent was genuine concern for her family's safety. Needless to say, I got a little personal. Everything I said, I said knowing that the friendship would end, but I couldn't her "I know more than you" attitude anymore.

I'm sure as your friend, she's only trying to help you see that (in her eyes anyway) you might be turning your daughter into a spoiled brat (putting words in her mouth). Your parenting style is obviously not one she's familiar with, and everything she's every heard or read about how to parent a child, more than likely came from "traditional" methods (not sure if that's the right term - cry it out, don't spoil your baby, etc). It doesn't sound to me like she's trying to cause a problem (in fact, exactly the opposite), but in my opinion, it's not her place, and she's not being too kind in her method of delivery.

Advice (nb concern) is always great, but to tell you that you're doing something wrong is completely disrespectful to the relationship. Backing off sounds like a good idea (until you cool down), but I would definitely talk to her about this. I'm sure that her intentions are good, and probably not worth ending a friendship over. My friendship ended because I simply couldn't stand it anymore. It's always bothered me the way she treats her children, but there's really nothing I can say to her about it. For us, no longer being friends was the best choice.

Good luck to you. That's a cruddy situation to be in.
post #6 of 68
I would have done the same with my DD in those situations! I think it's crazy to act like a child can never say "no" to a parent. We are not gods, we are here to guide and teach a child not control every moment of their lives.

I'd ask your friend about it. Something along the lines of "I've noticed you seemed surprised at how I handled these situations with DD...here's why I handled them that way..." and give her a quick overview of your views on the matter.
post #7 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderMum View Post
I'd ask your friend about it. Something along the lines of "I've noticed you seemed surprised at how I handled these situations with DD...here's why I handled them that way..." and give her a quick overview of your views on the matter.
You're way nicer than I am, seeing that it's none of her business WHY OP chose to handle the situation.

I have a BIL that constantly makes comments about how everyone's kids act. Mine, my nieces and nephews, friends, whoever... Of course he has no kids of his own and still lives at home with his mom and dad...at 31. When he makes those comments I just tell him that I can not WAIT to meet his perfectly behaved little angels. It will be a pleasure to see how a REAL parent should act.
post #8 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderMum View Post
I'd ask your friend about it. Something along the lines of "I've noticed you seemed surprised at how I handled these situations with DD...here's why I handled them that way..." and give her a quick overview of your views on the matter.
This gives me a good lead in, thanks. She is a very good friend and I don't want it to be a wedge between us (which is how it feels today). I don't believe I need to justify anything, and want to avoid that as much as possible, but I would like more openness about it. I don't want to stay uncomfortable about something that happened and not say anything.

I also guess I have to get over my surprise that our styles are so different, because we have a lot else in common, philosophies and interests that I would have thought would have made her less authoritarian as she comes across. She isn't going to have children, she's past the age where bio children and adopting children are viable options and she's happy with that choice. So, unfortunately in a way, she's never going to get to see for herself the reality of raising children and being with them all the time.
post #9 of 68
thnks friend I appreciate your concern re dd but I've read this research and these sites & books they resonate much better with me. I hope we can moce past this now and I'm happy to chat about this again when/if you have kids.

Its hard to understand parenting choices if you don't have kids. I know I was on the nannys site before I started actually thinking about kids
post #10 of 68
Oh, Lordy, she has no kids and she is giving you discipline advice?

I think that HAVING KIDS PERIOD will drive a wedge between you and your non-kid freinds. Kudos to you for keeping up this friendship. Ultimately, if you want to keep it, I would just let the comments roll off and she'll understand when she has kids of her own.

Even if you do try to explain it to her, she won't truly understand til she has a reference point.
post #11 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMommy View Post

I think that HAVING KIDS PERIOD will drive a wedge between you and your non-kid freinds.
You've hit the nail, SactoMommy. This is OT and probably worthy of another thread, but most of my closest friends are childless by choice and likely to remain that way. I notice the distance increasing as my perspective and priorities shift, and it makes me really sad.
post #12 of 68
OP, as far as the discipline issue is concerned, it seems like there may be something more basic going on. Your friend may truly believe that you want and need help with discipline, but are too overwhelmed/ busy/ etc. to find that help, and that's why she's providing these links and books-- she wants to help you with resources.

If it seemed like that might be the case, I wouldn't even get into the "why I did it this way" or "other methods I like better." I would just say something like "Look, I know you are trying to help me with this discipline info. I think it may not be clear to you that *I am making a conscious choice to discipline/parent this way.* I'm not overwhelmed or struggling; I've done plenty of reflecting and thinking and chosen what works best for our family."

I know with the friends I have who look at things differently, this would be enough to get them off the topic and bring our friendship back into balance.
post #13 of 68
I have the same issues with people. My mom actually laughed outloud in surprise when my son (7 at the time) refused a request of mine and I said "ok" and went about my business. My MIL thinks my kids lead me around by the nose just because I don't lead them around by the nose.

I tell these people that I want my kids to have the power of saying "no." I want them to demand respect as adults and to not have fear of authority. I want them to not be "yes men." If it's something Non-negotiable, I tell them that it's non-negotiable, but mostly, my requests are for my comfort and convenience and it doesn't mean that my children have to put my own comfort and convenience above theirs. They're people too and have feelings, wants, agendas, ,etc. Why shouldn't I respect that?

I've noticed that people who try to control their kids all the time have kids who are fearful. The kids seem to whine a lot and try to get their way against someone who doesn't want them to have their way. They do things in secret or just don't have the initiative to do anything at all and seem dull.

Alfie Kohn said in is Unconditional parenting dvd that the more times a parenting book has the word "obey" in it, the more worthless it is to a parent and child.
post #14 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMommy View Post
Oh, Lordy, she has no kids and she is giving you discipline advice?
I strongly disagree with having to have given birth in order to understand (or make decisions about) parenting techniques. When my first child was born, I could not believe how many people tried to give me advice or expressed disapproval for the way I chose to raise my daughter. Despite the fact that I worked as a nanny (often while the parents were out of town for long periods at a time) for over 15 years, justifying it by telling me how "it's different when it's your own". I'm still waiting to see how it's different.

I also disagree (in some circumstances) that having kids will drive a wedge between you and your kidless friends. I've found great support in several of my child-less friends, and having children of my own has strengthened some of our friendships.

Regardless of her way of voicing opinion, I do believe that onemomentatatime's friend is just trying to help. MY friend was flat out being condescending and disrespectful of how I raise my daughter, based on nothing but her own personal experience.

Has this friend had any experience other than by means of using punishment and discipline to "control" children, and the effect that certain methods have on them? Getting mad isn't going to help matters at all, if the friend doesn't understand your reasons for doing things your way.
post #15 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post

I also disagree (in some circumstances) that having kids will drive a wedge between you and your kidless friends. I've found great support in several of my child-less friends, and having children of my own has strengthened some of our friendships.

Has this friend had any experience other than by means of using punishment and discipline to "control" children, and the effect that certain methods have on them? Getting mad isn't going to help matters at all, if the friend doesn't understand your reasons for doing things your way.
Just for the record, I don't think it has to drive a wedge for every friendship, I'm speaking about my personal experience here, though, not philosophically about friendship in general. And I'm more sad than mad. There is more than I said in my original post, though, like her interrupting me when I was in the middle of redirecting DD by saying, "no, that means no you may not do that." That really is disrespectful, especially since it was a minor thing that didn't involve DF or safety; she wasn't stopping her from running in front of a car or something. I can't imagine interrupting a mother talking to her child for any reason, let alone to discipline them differently. That sort of thing WILL drive a wedge if we cannot work through it. I do believe she MEANT to be helpful, but helpful it was not!
post #16 of 68
I haven't read all the replies, but I am exactly the same way you are. I really try not to ever be in a hurry and let the kids roam and have a say, too. The few times I have in their life been more rushed, they have understood and cooperated. So long as they say no to me, or dissagree in a RESPECTFUL way, I have no problem.

And you knwo what? When she IS older she will most likely be much easier to do those things you NEED because you are teaching her a respectful relationship with you, and not just that you are mom and have the final say. I love it!
post #17 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by onemomentatatime View Post
. There is more than I said in my original post, though, like her interrupting me when I was in the middle of redirecting DD by saying, "no, that means no you may not do that." That really is disrespectful, especially since it was a minor thing that didn't involve DF or safety; she wasn't stopping her from running in front of a car or something.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my original reply. Were you asking, or were you telling. And if I (as your friend) wasn't sure or had a problem with your lax approach to "letting her get away with it", I would have approached YOU with my concerns. I agree with you, that what your friend did was downright disrespectful. Hopefully you (and she) can work through it!
post #18 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post
What I would comment on (and I'm not passing judgement on how you parent - just using this as a different way to communicate your friends feelings on the matter) was if you were asking your daughter to stay on the couch (and if you used the word "please"), or if you were telling her to stay there. *I* would not accept the word no as a reply without a "thank you" (I ALWAYS say please and thank you to my kids) when I am making a request, and if I told my daughter to stay there and she refused, I would then ask her why she's refusing. If the answer is reasonable (ie. she's just not tired anymore), then I would not push the matter.
Yes, I agree. I am working on this myself. Like other PPs, I don't feel the need for DD to be a robot immediately obeying every request, but (as a result of my permissiveness/openness to her suggestions) we have been having a problem lately with her ignoring my instructions when they do matter. Last week, for example, she ran out in front of cars in the parking lot TWICE when I specifically had told her, "Put your hands on the car and don't move." ETA: this is a parking lot-behavior that we have been working on since she was 12 mos old--putting hands on the car while I unlock the doors--, so she knows what she is supposed to do-- she was deliberately being disobedient to be "funny." It was not funny.

She's 2.5. She does not understand why, "Come with me to produce" is different than "Stay right next to the car." So, personally, I'm trying to formulate my instructions/suggestions differently when they matter and when they really don't... ."I'm ready to go to produce now," for example. If she ran over to the lobsters, I would prob say something like, "oh, how neat, lobsters. We can watch them for a minute before we go to produce."

Personally, I don't like it at all when DD says "No," whether it's a request or a command. If I say, "Go to bed," and she says, "But Mommy, I'm not tired," that's okay, I can deal with that. "No" on it's own would not be okay with me. (unless the question is, "Would you like..." or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post
I strongly disagree with having to have given birth in order to understand (or make decisions about) parenting techniques. When my first child was born, I could not believe how many people tried to give me advice or expressed disapproval for the way I chose to raise my daughter. Despite the fact that I worked as a nanny (often while the parents were out of town for long periods at a time) for over 15 years, justifying it by telling me how "it's different when it's your own". I'm still waiting to see how it's different.
Well, if someone with lots of experience w/ kids (a nanny or teacher or something) gave me advice, I would feel very differently than I would getting advice from someone with no significant kid experience. I know that, for me personally, I had a LOT of crazy ideas about the right way to raise children before I had my DD, and really, I don't feel like i'm much of a discipline "expert" now that I have her, either. Maybe an expert in DD
post #19 of 68
It's when someone passes judgement or assumes that a woman with no kids, has no experience, and should not be offering their advice or opinion. Even someone with as much experience as I have with raising children, I don't have the first clue what might be best for yours, and I still run into situations where I have to step back and wonder what the best way to handle it would be.

YOU are the expert in raising your kids. YOU know what is best for them, and what is not. All I can do is offer suggestions on different ways to handle whatever situation.
post #20 of 68
I might jokingly say something like "Hmmm, did I ask for advice on this?" and then explain that once you have kids everyone wants to weigh in on everything but at the end of the day, you have to make very personal choices about how you will choose to raise your children.

You don't have to end the friendship, but sometimes drawing your boundaries with a frosty "I'm comfortable with how I'm raising X, you really don't need me to give me advice on this." will make someone back off. If your friend is overstepping, to me, it's ok to let her know that. It's ok to let someone know that they are hurting your feelings/offending you. And it's better to let them know than to lose the friendship.

But, just like you're the one who really knows your daughter, you also know your friend. Maybe she doesn't deserve the frosty treatment. Maybe a quick response like --"Hey, I know you're putting a lot of time into finding these articles etc, but it's not necessary--I'm very happy with DD and the way we parent her." -- would work just as well?
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