Questions after reading Weston A Price

[Smokering]

Sooo I still haven't read Nourishing Traditions (can't afford it, library list is a mile long), but I read Weston A Price's research online via a link from this forum and have a few questions:

1. Did you notice your labours were shorter/easier after starting TF? Bigger babies? "Solider" babies? Smarter babies? Different facial structures?

2. WAP was very vehement that Vitamin A deficiency causes eye damage in babies, which makes sense, but what about the whole "avoid Vitamin A while pregnant because of birth defects" thing? Is it recommended you stock up on it before conceiving and then stop eating it during pregnancy? It seems like that would require a very carefully planned conception. Are regular TF levels of vitamin A considered dangerous for pregnant women?

3. Why soak grains before making bread? Wouldn't the rising time, during which the flour is moist (well, 'cause it's dough), be enough to get rid of the phytic acid?

4. Any recommendations for organ meats for the squeamish? I can see the benefits, but I don't think I could bring myself to deal with brains, tongues, hearts... or anything, actually, but I was considering being really brave and trying liver. Is it tasty? I used to like liverwurst...

5. Anyone made water kefir ginger beer? Is it good - like, good in an "Mm, this is good!" way, not good in a "I bet this is good for me" way? I tried making regular ginger beer once, with yeast and lemon juice and sugar, but I didn't like it. We don't do soft drinks in general, but I do love the odd ginger beer.

6. WAP puts a great emphasis on nutrition pre-conception for the father and the mother, in order to ensure "perfect germ cells". This makes sense in terms of sperm, but women's eggs are all formed before birth. So what gives?

[Magelet]

3. Why soak grains before making bread? Wouldn't the rising time, during which the flour is moist (well, 'cause it's dough), be enough to get rid of the phytic acid?

With sourdough bread, this IS long enough to soak the grains, as it takes at the least, all day. However, with bakers yeast, bread can easily go from being made into dough to in the oven in 2-3 hours. This just isn't enough. The minimum for soaking anything (I think that would be with nuts?) is about 7 hours. because sourdough is slow, it does end up taking about 6-7 hours total rise time, and of course, some of the flour is in the starter (and often much of it soaks for 24 hours if you do a build or 2).

4. Any recommendations for organ meats for the squeamish? I can see the benefits, but I don't think I could bring myself to deal with brains, tongues, hearts... or anything, actually, but I was considering being really brave and trying liver. Is it tasty? I used to like liverwurst...

hide it. and give it a try. and learn to like it.

With liver, some people love it some people hate it. I used to hate it. It was mostly a texture thing, but taste too. I'm learning to like chopped liver, by having a small bite, several times a week. At first, I had to have that second spoon ready with the hummus or tabouleh or something to wash the taste away. I'm now starting to enjoy the taste, almost, sort of kind of. I'm sure I'll get there. I'm lucky, I can get said small bite at work, and not have to make 1 bites worth of chopped chicken liver.... lol, but I think it keeps a few days, and you could make 1 liver's worth. I hide liver in most ground meat dishes (when I remember to.) you can't taste it but it adds extra nutrition. I do little peices cut off a frozen chunk, but pureed and then frozen and then thawed when needed works great too. (I think its easier if you remember to pull the liver to the fridge.)

heart turns out to be really tasty. tongue too. both if you cook them right. if not they're.... ukky. tongue has to be cooked the right amount, I don't know what it is. heart should be soaked in an acidic medium (or milk), which makes it taste less irony. If you cut out the grisly bits, its a GREAT meat. I generally just eat around the grisly bits. Then again, I have trouble getting all the goodness off a chicken wing. DP has no toughness issues with hearts. (love the kebab recipe in NT though I've never done them as kebabs, but then cooked up in a pan they are scrumptious.

I don't know about sweetbreads or brain or thymus, not having found a source for them yet. I think with sweetbreads again you soak them in milk.

I highly recomend getting over the ukk factor, and giving it a try, because it turns out that organ meats can be tasty. And the nutrition sure is good. and if you can't stomach it and don't feel like training yourself to, then puree organ meats, freeze them, and pop them in things that you won't notice. (anything with ground meat, pretty much. except maybe ground poultry...)

[Smokering]

My bread always takes about 6-7 hours from dough to oven; I was alays puzzled by recipes that said the dough would double in an hour! I wonder if I'm using a different kind of yeast, or if it's a New Zealand climate thing, or something? Slow rises mean better flavour anyway, I find. So an all-day-risen bread would be OK phytic acid-wise without presoaking the flour? I've made sourdough before, twice (as in, started starters two separate times and kept going for a few weeks each time), but I get really sick of sourdough - it tastes like a special occasion, "arty" bread to me that's fun once in a while, but it doesn't taste "normal" the way bread made with regular yeast does.

I could probably just about stomach adding a bit of liver to lasagna and such. You swear you can't taste/sense/otherwise notice it in there? Maybe I could get DH to do the preparation - he's not much of a cook, but he did capsulise my placenta for me so I know he has a stomach of iron.

Thanks for the info! In theory I like the organ meats thing - I think it's worthy and noble to use all the parts of an animal, sensible to buy organ meats when they're cheaper and more nutritionally dense, etc. It's just the squick factor (and possibly the taste facto, but I won't know that until I've conquered the squick!). I'm even funny about the kinds of meat I try - I eat beef, lamb, chicken and fish with impunity but find the idea of venison or rabbit incredibly, almost quasi-morally, repugnant. DH, who was brought up on ostrich mince and loves venison, thinks I'm insane and frustrating. The TF threads about boiling chicken feet and scooping marrow from bones with a spoon make me delicately queasy...

[Smokering]

Oh - another question while I'm at it. For those of you who are "low-grain", how low is low? Is it more like "only one slice of toast or the equivalent a day", or more like "we eat the occasional cookie when we go to friend's houses"?

ETA: Ooh! And another one! If gelatine is so awesomely wondrous, does it follow that jelly (jello for Americans) is a Good Thing? I was pretty disgusted last time I made packet jelly and thought about its contents, so recently I've been making my own with bought red grape juice, gelatine, sugar and water. I'm sure it's not the healthiest thing ever (and any suggestions on making it better are appreciated!), but is it still worthwhile because of the gelatine content? My toddler doesn't eat very much aside from breastmilk and she loves jelly, so I like to think she's getting some nutrition from it...? I did make a holier-than-thou version with freshly-squeezed mandarin juice from the garden, but it tasted awful. We've moved away from that garden in the mean time, anyway.

[mbravebird]

Originally Posted by Smokering

1. Did you notice your labours were shorter/easier after starting TF? Bigger babies? "Solider" babies? Smarter babies? Different facial structures?

My TF labor was shorter and easier. It was my second. I also drank HUGE amounts of Red Raspberry Leaf Infusion, though, so I'm sure that had an effect on my labor. I credit TF with higher energy levels and less weight gain during & after pregnancy. Mostly the organ meats and high fat levels did that for me. I felt better during pregnancy than ever, which was VERY different from my last pregnancy. My new baby does sleep much better than my last -- not sure whether that's related to nutrition. Sometimes that just happens. My two kids looked and weighed very similarly. I had pretty good nutrition with my first, though, as well. And my mom ate organ meats when she was pregnant with me, and I drank raw milk as a kid. So I might have had some good nutritional stores for my first. Even so, my second pregnancy was much, much easier physically, and improved my health rather than challenging it.

Originally Posted by Smokering

2. WAP was very vehement that Vitamin A deficiency causes eye damage in babies, which makes sense, but what about the whole "avoid Vitamin A while pregnant because of birth defects" thing? Is it recommended you stock up on it before conceiving and then stop eating it during pregnancy? It seems like that would require a very carefully planned conception. Are regular TF levels of vitamin A considered dangerous for pregnant women?

The overdose studies were all done with synthetic vitamin A. If you do those same studies with naturally occurring vitamin A, like from liver, no birth defect differences are noted. WAPF has the studies listed in their article "The liver files". Pregnant women who ate up to 30,000 IU a day of food-derived, natural vitamin A had no increase in birth defects, and lots of benefit in other areas. I ate liver all throughout my pregnancy, and took cod liver oil.

You do have to have sufficient levels of vitamin D, though, to help process the vitamin A. You could get in an overdose situation by not having sufficient D to match your A consumption. That's why cod liver oil is so good -- it has both included.

Originally Posted by Smokering

3. Why soak grains before making bread? Wouldn't the rising time, during which the flour is moist (well, 'cause it's dough), be enough to get rid of the phytic acid?

Nope. Quick rises, even six-seven hours cumulative, are not as effective as long rises. You can do a long rise with sourdough (ideal) or a no-knead bread with a 12-24 hour rise (second best; that's what I do -- I mix it at night, rise it overnight, bake it whenever I can the next day).

Originally Posted by Smokering

4. Any recommendations for organ meats for the squeamish? I can see the benefits, but I don't think I could bring myself to deal with brains, tongues, hearts... or anything, actually, but I was considering being really brave and trying liver. Is it tasty? I used to like liverwurst...

I cut my frozen liver into pill-sized pieces and pop them like vitamin pills, swallowing whole with water. You can't taste it that way, and you need less because the raw packs more punch, apparently. I take a few "pills" a day when I'm doing it. I feel a big difference from it.

Originally Posted by Smokering

6. WAP puts a great emphasis on nutrition pre-conception for the father and the mother, in order to ensure "perfect germ cells". This makes sense in terms of sperm, but women's eggs are all formed before birth. So what gives?

That's where the generational nutrition comes in, and is really important. So my mother's preconception and pregnancy nutrition affected my eggs.

Originally Posted by Smokering

If gelatine is so awesomely wondrous, does it follow that jelly (jello for Americans) is a Good Thing? I was pretty disgusted last time I made packet jelly and thought about its contents, so recently I've been making my own with bought red grape juice, gelatine, sugar and water. I'm sure it's not the healthiest thing ever (and any suggestions on making it better are appreciated!), but is it still worthwhile because of the gelatine content? My toddler doesn't eat very much aside from breastmilk and she loves jelly, so I like to think she's getting some nutrition from it...? I did make a holier-than-thou version with freshly-squeezed mandarin juice from the garden, but it tasted awful. We've moved away from that garden in the mean time, anyway.

Processed gelatin has some amount of MSG in it, which is why it's not ideal. It's also from really unhealthy animals. You can buy a better-processed gelatin by Bernard Jensen, which is also from grass-fed cows. It still has trace amounts of MSG in it, but pretty good overall. I think there's another good brand, too, that's smoother and better for jello, but I forget what the name is. Someone on here will know. Yes, I think jello made with good gelatin does have nutritional value. You could also slip some homemade chicken broth in there, to really up the nutritional content!

If your daughter is young, you're in a great place to start getting good TF foods in her (when she's ready for food).

Have fun discovering TF!!

[ASusan]

I cut raw lamb's liver into 1" pieces and freeze them separately (7 to a sandwich ziploc bag). I then put one piece into the bottom of the blender when I make my green smoothie. I never notice it.

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by mbravebird

That's where the generational nutrition comes in, and is really important. So my mother's preconception and pregnancy nutrition affected my eggs.

And to a certain degree your Grandmother's diet had an impact on your own genetics/health. Meaning the ramifications of poor maternal health impact more than just your own children.

[Smokering]

Bah. Why does gelatine have MSG in it?? It's not like they want it to taste meaty, the stuff I use has a picture of jelly on the packet! That's bizarre. Would MSG be listed on the ingredients in some form? Mine just says "Gelatin derived from beef". I live in NZ so it's possible the additive laws are different... maybe... right? Still, I could probably fork out for the good stuff, it's not like one uses cupfuls of it at a time. It lasts indefinitely, no?

Putting chicken stock or even beef stock in sweet dishes is something I read about on this forum and went "...". Can't you taste it? I assume you make a very plain, unsalted, veggieless broth? I usually use ex-roasted chicken carcasses for mine which have been seasoned, and add veggies towards the end of the cooking time; so I'm guessing that wouldn't go too well with grape juice. If I could only wrap my head around buying meat for stock - chicken necks or whatever - I guess I could make a plain version.

I often do leave my bread to rise overnight for its first or second rising - in fact, I have a loaf of multigrain on the counter right now that rose all night. I'll make more of an effort to do that - we do mealplan, so I can think ahead.

That's where the generational nutrition comes in, and is really important. So my mother's preconception and pregnancy nutrition affected my eggs.

That's a somewhat depressing thought! And my childhood nutrition makes me shudder. It's a wonder I'm here at all! Guess I have a lot of catching up to do, right?

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Sooo I still haven't read Nourishing Traditions (can't afford it, library list is a mile long), but I read Weston A Price's research online via a link from this forum and have a few questions:

1. Did you notice your labours were shorter/easier after starting TF? Bigger babies? "Solider" babies? Smarter babies? Different facial structures?

I haven't had a post-TF pregnancy, but interestingly, after we switched our diet, both my kids seemed to get heavier. Their height and weight percentiles are almost the same now, and both changed at the same time (despite a 2.5yr age gap between them). It was odd, but it seems to be their new growth curve. I _do_ think I can see facial structure affects in both, 2nd child more than the 1st. Our family genes play a role in determining what's more marked than other aspects in each, but I see the things Price talked about in both.

6. WAP puts a great emphasis on nutrition pre-conception for the father and the mother, in order to ensure "perfect germ cells". This makes sense in terms of sperm, but women's eggs are all formed before birth. So what gives?

I've been puzzled about the same thing. But rates of birth defects rise with maternal age, so I'm wondering if whatever forces are at work there are counteracted to some extent by nutrition. Clearly that can't do anything about a gene mutation that was there to start with, and I'm not clear what other forces may be at work, but it's interesting (in a best-likelihood way vs a guaranteed 100% healthy child way).

[Magelet]

I would say that jelly can be a fairly good thing, but it can be really bad for you. The packets of jelly would definitely be horrible for you. Homemade jelly, is probably pretty healthy as desserts go, but there is the sugar issue. You definitely don't want to make it too sweet. (using coconut milk or milk in combination with fruit juice or unrefined sweetened hibisicus infusion, see below, is great because its not too sweet but super yummy). You can also make jelly using pureed fruit. I made it once with pureed watermelon. It was more chunky but delicious.

I think great lakes geletin makes a smoother jelly/jello than bernard jensen (but is similarly healthy). I don't know that it contains msg, but I might put forth that it is possible that msg is not an additive but a product of making gelatin. Or that glutamates are a natural component. Several of the big baddies of processed food, like glutemates and nitrates are actually naturally occuring, though chemical versions which are not healthy are added to processed foods.

For improving your jelly recipe, grape juice is so sweet, do you need to add sugar? Can you do a unrefined sugar? Its really good if you make a cold infusion of hibiscus (cold to preserve the vitamin c), add the geletin and some palm sugar or rapadura to hot water, let it cool some, add it to the hibisicus, and add some fruit, let it chill and set. (its even better if you then make a topping layer with coconut milk or regular milk. it goes really really well together.


No, you won't be able to taste a small amount of liver in your lasagne, I promise. A large amount, maybe you would, but a small amount, you won't taste or feel. Liver hides quite nicely in ground meat. I'd say that at the least a tablespoon per pound would not be noticeable. more perhaps might work, but definitely a tablespoon ground liver should be fine.

personally the idea of putting stock in sweets is pretty gross to me. no way would I do that. my stock is way too strongly meat flavored.

I think that our parents having poor nutrition when they had us is something that a lot of people have to deal with, but since there isn't too much I can change about that other than improving my diet from this point forward, and giving my children good health preconception, during pregnancy and in their youth, so thats the only bit I worry about. Nothing I can do about the fact that my mother's diet might not have been ideal, so I thank her for doing the best she knew how, and am grateful for that, and only worry about what I will do in the future. I feel its nonesense to worry about the nutrition you got when your mother is pregnant, because you can't do anything about it.

[mbravebird]

Originally Posted by Magelet

I might put forth that it is possible that msg is not an additive but a product of making gelatin.

Yes, that's my understanding too. And there is a way of processing it that results in less glutamates, which the good gelatins do. Not sure about the details...

[Smokering]

It needs a little sugar to convince DH it's a worthy alternative to packet jelly. My recipe is 3 tsp gelatin slowly heated with 1/2 cup water and about 1/3 cup sugar; then 1 1/2 cups grape juice. I've heard you can use honey, but was hesitant to try it in case it affected the taste. I have yet to invest in fancy sugar alternatives, but I'll give it a go!

WAP said that MSG was invented by Japanese scientists in 1908 (I think it was!), but I guess there could be MSG-like substances - glutamates, as you say - naturally occurring in the gelatine. In which case, is it so worrying? Surely naturally-occurring stuff wouldn't be as evil as real MSG? After all, if it's in gelatine it must be in broth.

I feel its nonesense to worry about the nutrition you got when your mother is pregnant, because you can't do anything about it.

Well, that's certainly true! And hey, at least my grandmother was Irish and brought up on a farm with good stodgy meat and potatoes!

[snowbunny]

1. Did you notice your labours were shorter/easier after starting TF? Bigger babies? "Solider" babies? Smarter babies? Different facial structures?
Not applicable for me. I was a whole foods vegetarian while PG, and a whole foods vegan until finding TF around the time my son turned a year old (or so) if I recall. He's otherwise been raised on TF - and his palate seems wide, teeth well-spaced and he's a smart kid.

2. WAP was very vehement that Vitamin A deficiency causes eye damage in babies, which makes sense, but what about the whole "avoid Vitamin A while pregnant because of birth defects" thing? Is it recommended you stock up on it before conceiving and then stop eating it during pregnancy? It seems like that would require a very carefully planned conception. Are regular TF levels of vitamin A considered dangerous for pregnant women?

Vitamin A is important in preventing birth defects including cleft lip / palate. This is a good article on vitamin A: http://www.realmilk.com/vita.html. My solution is to truck on as normal - neither worrying about too much nor worrying about too little. Instead, my focus is good, real food.

3. Why soak grains before making bread? Wouldn't the rising time, during which the flour is moist (well, 'cause it's dough), be enough to get rid of the phytic acid?
The rising time is not generally long enough to effect any measurable change unless the rising time is slow and long. Quick breads and cakes don't take any rising time at all.

4. Any recommendations for organ meats for the squeamish? I can see the benefits, but I don't think I could bring myself to deal with brains, tongues, hearts... or anything, actually, but I was considering being really brave and trying liver. Is it tasty? I used to like liverwurst...

Chicken liver pate. It's mild and very, very good. Chicken livers are the only organ meat I can manage at this time - and that was at the recommendation of a friend.

5. Anyone made water kefir ginger beer? Is it good - like, good in an "Mm, this is good!" way, not good in a "I bet this is good for me" way? I tried making regular ginger beer once, with yeast and lemon juice and sugar, but I didn't like it. We don't do soft drinks in general, but I do love the odd ginger beer.
I like it, but I like that fermented taste. It's not like regular ginger beer.

6. WAP puts a great emphasis on nutrition pre-conception for the father and the mother, in order to ensure "perfect germ cells". This makes sense in terms of sperm, but women's eggs are all formed before birth. So what gives?
Pre-conception nutrition isn't about egg-quality. It's about nourishing your body so that it can nourish your growing baby. Whether or not Price knew that a woman's eggs are formed before birth is moot, as proper nutrition still dramatically affects reproductive health beyond the scope of ova.

[Rikki Jean]

1. Did you notice your labours were shorter/easier after starting TF? Bigger babies? "Solider" babies? Smarter babies? Different facial structures?

I had a much-healthier-than-mainstream diet with DS1, and much more TF-diet with DS2 (although, not hardcore; we're still working on that. ). Both of my labors were precipitous (DS1- 5.5 hours, DS2- 3.5 hours), so I can't credit TF with making the second one shorter. I'm eating more TF now, and drinking a lot more RRL tea, so this baby might just show up in my sleep one day.

DS2 was smaller than DS1, and also has more crowded teeth (my husband has pretty messy teeth, and my family doesn't have the straightest teeth around either, so the genes aren't helpful). DS1 quickly became a tank and stayed that way for about two years; DS2, on the other hand, has been slim (but tall) for his whole two years. They're both really smart though!

So, um, for us, eating a more TF diet did not help with teeth, bigger babies, or even really the labors. However, they're both incredibly healthy (although we do have some minor allergy issues, again, passed through the genes), have more energy than any two little boys need, they're very bright, and all of that other good stuff.

2. WAP was very vehement that Vitamin A deficiency causes eye damage in babies, which makes sense, but what about the whole "avoid Vitamin A while pregnant because of birth defects" thing? Is it recommended you stock up on it before conceiving and then stop eating it during pregnancy? It seems like that would require a very carefully planned conception. Are regular TF levels of vitamin A considered dangerous for pregnant women?

I don't have any insight on the Vitamin A stuff, but I wanted to comment on the carefully planned conception thing. I agree with you! I sometimes have to giggle at the big emphasis put on that. Especially for my family, where we don't use birth control of any sort, we weren't TF before our first babies were born, etc. In a situation like mine, it's just not practical.

Originally Posted by Smokering

That's a somewhat depressing thought! And my childhood nutrition makes me shudder. It's a wonder I'm here at all! Guess I have a lot of catching up to do, right?

I know how you feel! I ate a good diet of McDonald's and Lunchables growing up (and all of the crap that goes along with that), and it's been a long hard road to get away from all of it.

I try not to think about what's in our genes...when DH's grandmother was PG with FIL, she survived on Junior Mints and Pepsi. That's right, candy and soda...then they wondered why he had to have a screen put in his stomach as a child... I try to take comfort in the fact that my maternal grandparents lived in a remote village in Greece until about ten years before my mom was born, so hopefully I got some good stuff from them.

[samihenter]

organ meats

i really like organ meat more than beef and they all taste different.
i buy, liver (from sheep or cow, i like sheep's more, i dont buy the ones from poultry because we have no free range fed poultry here, we have free range eggs but not meat) sweetbread (i buy them less often cause generally they dont seem to be fresh), and heart. cook them with vegetables. we eat also
roasted sheep's intestines here, it is called kokoreç, tastes like a less fatty sweetbread it is also excellent.

[Smokering]

I nearly bought ox liver in the supermarket today, but stopped with some relief when I remembered supermarket liver probably wasn't pastured/organic and the meat might have toxins. Plus, it was next to the pigs' ears. Who eats pigs' ears?!

I was wondering about the texture of liver - is it homogenous like a boneless chicken breast, or does it have... bits and vessels and stuff? i should probably know this, but I've never investigated a liver before. What about kidneys?

[samihenter]

liver

liver is homogenous like chicken breast no veins or anything different but much more tasty.
i did not eat any kidney for 20 years i guess, i never buy them. they are not so bad, but sweetbread, liver, heart and kokorec taste much better in this order.
in turkey liver is very popular.
we have restaurants where mostly liver is eaten as shish kebabs along shish vegetables. There is nothing wrong with the taste of liver, i like it definitely more than chicken breast or even more than chicken legs or wings. There are cities here where people eat liver even for breakfast.

[samihenter]

brain

also it seems dangerous to eat it but we have an excellent salad.
it is made from boiled sheep brain as a whole, plus some parsley and lemon juice. it is very fatty but tastes EXCELLENT.

[Smokering]

I don't think I could quite get past the braininess of brain, but I'm gradually becoming broadminded to the idea of liver. I tried to buy some in the butcher's today, but they were out.

I did get two packets of chicken carcasses to make stock (yay! no feet or heads!), one packet of beef bones for stock, and some dripping. I've never used dripping before, so that'll be fun... any tips? As for the meat, the butcher said it wasn't organic but was hormone-free and was grass-fed beef (she didn't know what conditions the chickens were raised in). Does that sound like a not-too-bad compromise for now? Luckily I live in New Zealand - I don't know if you can get NON-grass fed beef!

[Faliciagayle]

Msg

Mono Sodium Glutamate may well have been "invented" by a Japanese scientist, but it is a synthetic version of a naturally occurring compound.

Glutamic acid is an amino acid and as a metabolite it is responsible for the 6th taste - savory, or in Japanese, Umami. Like Magelet said, glutamates (among other things) are naturally occurring compounds resulting from various metabolic processes.

And like most synthetic versions of good things, it is very very bad in the false form. But believe me, we all like glutamic acid, and if you don't now, you will once you learn to like organ meat