Should children just do as they are told ALL THE TIME?

[Mama_2_Boy]

DS is going to be 5 soon. He's always had a bit of a wandering mind and he's not always so quick to jump to attention when you ask him something or tell him to do something.
Anways - this is the one and only ongoing battle between me and DH. My husband feels that DS should ALWAYS do as he is told. My argument is that, "well you should pick your battles and decide what is worth a fight and what is not"....but he does not agree and we fight about it because I sometimes intervene when DH is verbally scolding DS for his inability to conform at that moment. Honestly, sometimes it's really lame things. Like DS might be playing with something and I'm calling him to sit for supper and he won't come. He'll acknowledge "coming" and doesn't move right away and DH gets upset and starts in on him about "listening". I might jump in and say "leave him alone already! You're just upset because you can't control him" This is a real sore spot with DH because he says I'm undermining his authority ..... which I probably am. But I'm tired of seeing DH getting upset with DS over little things KWIM? And then maybe tossing him into bed and telling him to stay there until he can learn to realize he HAS TO LISTEN. DH has stated that from now on, no matter what it is, if DS does not do as he is told - not matter what it is - then he has to be put in bed.
I AM DESPERATE! Although I understand my DH's point about the importance of listening, I feel its unreasonable to expect a child to listen ALL THE TIME, or even comply all the time. DH feels that if I don't be persistent with DS all the time, that DS is just going to take advantage of me. I don't feel that way at all about it. I'm trying to find a balance here and I'm really hoping that I can get some good points from all you wonderful ladies out there!

Thanks.

[ComplexOphelia]

I think you're right on, Mama! Kids are independent entities and deserve as much respect and consideration as "we adults!"

I'm sorry to hear that you and DH are on different pages with this. My DH and I are also still ironing out what exactly we value in terms of respect versus compliance. If you and he have time to read, I found the books Connection Parenting by Pam Leo and Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn to be immeasurably helpful for DH and me. They talk about not "replaying tapes" of our parents, which we definitely recognized ourselves doing.

Something I especially love in Unconditional Parenting is his discussion of the qualities we admire in children not being the qualities we admire in adults, especially in regards to compliance! We value independence in adults, but want our children to be docile. We want our teens to stand up to peer pressure regarding sex and drugs, but we want our kids to listen to us "because we said so." This book really helped me realize that you can't have it both ways! It related so much to my personal experience - I was a very compliant child because my family would always withdraw their love and sometimes hit me if I wasn't compliant. Unsurprisingly, during my adolescence all hell broke loose . I didn't respect my parents at all, I certainly didn't respect myself, and my choices regarding sex and drugs reflected that.

Now, do I wish you could have it both ways sometimes? ABSOLUTELY! I'm sure my life would be much easier if I had a child who came running at my beck and call, who did everything he was told immediately, and who never questioned my authority. I'm also sure that parenting wouldn't be helping me grow as a person, though, if I were raising a compliant child. Thinking about whether my requests are respectful, whether my motivation is actually selfish, whether my tone is kind, has done wonders for how I relate to not only my son but the world in general.

I hope any of this helped!

ETA: Kohn in UP also talks about our view of kids. Typically, people will view kids as entities who will "take advantage" and basically prescribe the worst possible motivations to them - greed, selfishness, etc. Kohn talks about changing this, and recognizing our children as inherently good rather than inherently evil, which I really like a lot. There's a great thread on Unconditional Parenting here on this board that you could check out, but it wasn't until reading the book that I really felt like I understood it.

[Ruthla]

IMO, children should not be taught "obedience" as a virtue. They need to learn trust and respect, for themselves and others. Children who trust their parents to keep them safe generally understand that "mommy yells "no" when I run too close to the street because she wants to keep me safe." Children who are respected will in turn learn how to be respectful- and keeping the family waiting when it's time for dinner is disrespectful.

There's a big difference in the kind of response required for different kinds of things. When it's time for dinner, it's fine to wait 2 or 3 minutes while he finished up his game. Respecting the child would be to give him 10 and then 5 minute warnings that dinner is almost ready, so he has time to finish up in time to join you.

With safety issues, you need a much more immediate response. But if you're yelling "no" all the time, they tend to tune you out. They won't learn the difference between "don't play in the street" and "don't put your shoes on the sofa" if you use the same tone of voice for both rules. If you hardly ever yell, they'll really listen if an actual emergency comes up!

So, most people on MDC share your basic philosophy towards discipline. However, your husband's idea of "children should be made to mind adults" is also very pervasive in some areas. It could be the only childrearing philosophy he's familiar with at all. It's hard to raise children when you and your partner don't agree on basic principals. It's incredibly confusing to a child if the rules suddenly change whenever Daddy comes home.

In the specific area of the dinner table, I'm sure a compromise can be reached. Give DS lots of warning, remind him that Daddy really HATES to wait for dinner when he's hungry and it's important to both of you to have a family meal. You can ask DH to be more gentle in his requests that DS join you (or take over the reminders yourself.) But there are much deeper issues here, and this will keep on coming up if you and DH can't agree.

[Thalia the Muse]

I do feel that if I tell my daughter she must do something, then she has to do it. Yes, every time. Otherwise, it's confusing -- do I really mean it, or is it optional? what happens when you've got something that he really, truly does need to do, and he decides that this time he doesn't feel like complying, because when you tell him to do something, half the time you don't really mean it and will happily let him ignore you?

BUT I try to keep the number of "you must do this" situations to a minimum. If it's something where I'd like her to do it but it's optional, I make that clear up front. I do my battle-picking before I ask her, not after.

For dinner, I agree that a ten-minute warning is a good idea. But you and your husband need to work out parenting differences with mutual respect in privacy, not challenging each other in front of your son. I sometimes think someone needs to write a book about Unconditional Spousing!

[Wild Lupine]

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy

Like DS might be playing with something and I'm calling him to sit for supper and he won't come. He'll acknowledge "coming" and doesn't move right away

My husband will be 49 in a few months and he does this exact same thing! I can assure your husband he is a law-abiding citizen who can hold down a good job and treat other people respectfully. He just needs a few minutes to finish his task, email, article he's reading, or whatever he is doing; it seems respectful to allow him this.

Warnings are good, but a few minutes leeway shows the respect goes both ways. What's a game to us is very important work for a child and I wouldn't expect him to drop it instantly any more than I would expect my husband to drop whatever he's doing without time to bring it to a close. Is DS eventually coming, like within a few minutes? If not, that is disrespectful to the rest of the family and at five he should be able to get that. But if it is just a couple of minutes to finish up, maybe you could call him to dinner earlier than he really needs to be there.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

It's completely developmentally appropriate for a four or five year old to take a few minutes to switch gears.

My son is in his late teens and he is still like this. And you know what? It's turned out to be one of his greatest skills. His ability to focus on the task at hand has served him very well. I would have hated to have "trained" that out of him.

I'll take a few minute delay between asking and action in exchange for the ability to get really absorbed in thought.

For safety reasons, and frankly because we cannot always wait, we added on the word "now" as a signal that this requires quick action. As in, "Stop now!" means to freeze.

[kayabrink]

My husband and ds both get a 5 minute warning before dinner, and when I then call them to dinner ds is the only one to come immediately. It's bizarre, because as a rule ds is non compliant but in a nice way- I'll tell him to do something, and he'll do something slightly different because he thinks it might be easier, more helpful, whatever (and there is always a reason. With a structured, logical, well organized argument to defend his point of view. I think we need to save up for law school).
I really struggle with this because I DO want ds to do what I say, and right away- if only to make my life easier. However, I don't want him to just do whatever everyone (peers, other adults, strangers...) else tells him to do, iykwim. I try to remind myself I'm glad he's questioning the reasoning behind demands made on him. I used to tell him why I was asking him to do something. Now if an argument springs up, I get HIM to tell me why he THINKS I want/need him to act a certain way. That way, he's arguing with himself instead of me.
I also still need to get up a lot, like one typically would with a toddler. If I'm very close, touch him gently on the shoulder before speaking, make sure I have his attention, it makes it easier for him to follow through right away.
We went through a period where we were reprimanding ds every time he didn't listen/comply. For my ds, things just got worse, but ymmv, mine is very argumentative in a nice way ( it's meaningful dialogue to him)

[Mama_2_Boy]

Originally Posted by onemomentatatime

My husband will be 49 in a few months and he does this exact same thing! I can assure your husband he is a law-abiding citizen who can hold down a good job and treat other people respectfully. He just needs a few minutes to finish his task, email, article he's reading, or whatever he is doing; it seems respectful to allow him this.

Warnings are good, but a few minutes leeway shows the respect goes both ways. What's a game to us is very important work for a child and I wouldn't expect him to drop it instantly any more than I would expect my husband to drop whatever he's doing without time to bring it to a close. Is DS eventually coming, like within a few minutes? If not, that is disrespectful to the rest of the family and at five he should be able to get that. But if it is just a couple of minutes to finish up, maybe you could call him to dinner earlier than he really needs to be there.

It's interesting that you mention this because come to think of it - many times when I have requested something from my husband and he is going something else - you think he drops everything and comes running to me??? Hell no! I've pointed this out to him, but his retort is that "DS is a child and he has to learn to come when he is called period". I have pointed out to DH that DS is a person too and we should be teaching him respect, but he continues to stick the fact that he is a child and needs a different set of rules then adults do
I don't know if I have a hope in hell of trying to get my meaning across to him and there is another one on the way very very soon which is no doubt going to bring with it all sorts of "listening" challenges.

[Shera971]

I can see where both you and your husband are coming from. In my opinion, if a child is asked to come to the dinner table, they come. I don't think its asking too much of a child to do this. However, you can set your son up for success with the great ideas posted here about giving warnings. Nobody wants to be interupted while doing something fun (like posting on the internet ) to go do something 'less' fun. I always give my son warnings when we are about to change activities like getting out of the bath, coming to the dinner table, getting ready for school etc etc. I also make sure that he is listening to me completely and not while still engaged with something else. I'll go to the same room as he is, get down on his level, look at him and will say "Ok DS, dinner is in five minutes, please wrap up with what you are doing".

I don't think it really has to do anything with "obeying". For me, it comes down to respect. I have asked you to do something, so please do it. I try to show the same courtesy to my son. If he asks me for something, like help getting a toy, unless I'm engaged in something like cleaning the toilet, I help him right away. He's asked me to do something, we're a family and we listen to each other.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

but he continues to stick the fact that he is a child and needs a different set of rules then adults do

He is absolutely correct. So why is he treating his child like a mini-grown up?

Have you shared with him that this is normal behavior? That reaction times vary widely when it comes to children and adults? That the rules for children are to allow for more time, not less?

Does you DH have issues with power and control in other areas of his life? In parenting? Or just on this issue?

Lastly, you are not undermining your DH's authority, you are protecting your DH from continuing to make the same mistake with his kid over and over and over again.

[Shera971]

Originally Posted by Thisbirdwillfly

Lastly, you are not undermining your DH's authority, you are protecting your DH from continuing to make the same mistake with his kid over and over and over again.

If she is stopping her DH's behaviour in front of her son, she is undermining his authority. I believe that it is important that the parents need to discuss this WITHOUT the children present. Otherwise the child might come to believe that he does't have to listen to one parent, because the other parent will step in.

caveat - of course this doesn't apply to extreme situations like if the child is in physical danger

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Oh absolutely they should always obey adults -- especially ones they don't know who are offering them candy to get into the car and help them "find the lost puppy". Or the teacher who has a "special assignment" for them in an enclosed room alone. Or the slightly older friend who promises that the pill will make them feel good. Or even me when I say "we are leaving now" and they really need a bathroom first.

Seroiusly, I want my kids to stop and think before they blindly obey an adult. Any adult. Perhaps especially an adult with authority. And I figure they need to practice making decisions about obeying at home before they are faced with the really hard situations out in the world. Thus, I don't have a problem if it takes a minute for my kids to evaluate the situation. If they say "no" in the end, I expect them to be able to express that politely and have a reason, but I don't have a problem with them not instantly obeying.

[Gentle~Mommy :)]

My husbands swears I let our boys get away with murder, he has very little patience with them not doing exactly what they are told and he has high expectations.

The truth is, I pick my battles and during the day when I am home with them we have very little conflict or problems. It all seems to start when Dad comes home, or on a weekend when he is home.

I don't have an answer for you, just wanted to let you know that I go through the same things and you are not alone.

[LionTigerBear]

I think what all of us parents hope for, really, is for our children to be cooperative with us. Our children will tend to be more cooperative with us when we have a strong bond and attachment with them. So, if I want my children to be more tuned in to me, and "listen" to me more, and *want* to help me, then I need to be respectful to them, be considerate of them, spend quality time with them, and actively work to build a mutually trusting and loving relationship.

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by Shera971

I don't think it really has to do anything with "obeying". For me, it comes down to respect. I have asked you to do something, so please do it. I try to show the same courtesy to my son. If he asks me for something, like help getting a toy, unless I'm engaged in something like cleaning the toilet, I help him right away. He's asked me to do something, we're a family and we listen to each other.

I LOVE this. When I was pregnant with my first child I told my husband that I never want my children to "obey" me. They're human beings, not robots. It is ALL about respect. Not just the respect they have for us, but the respect we have for them as well. In ALL the years experience I've had with kids, I've rarely had to ask for something twice. Even those who's mothers complained were difficult and didn't listen, I've never seemed to have a problem with. I FULLY believe that respect FOR EACH OTHER is the reason.

Thank you for posting this.

[XyMama]

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

I think what all of us parents hope for, really, is for our children to be cooperative with us. Our children will tend to be more cooperative with us when we have a strong bond and attachment with them. So, if I want my children to be more tuned in to me, and "listen" to me more, and *want* to help me, then I need to be respectful to them, be considerate of them, spend quality time with them, and actively work to build a mutually trusting and loving relationship.

Yes, yes, yes! Well put.

[DevaMajka]

I do want ds to obey me when it matters. But I also want him to know that his desires matter too, and sometimes *I* don't have all the information.
For example, if I tell him to pick up a toy, it's perfectly fine for him to say that he's still planning on playing with it. Now that I have all the information, I can make an informed decision on the matter. This just seems like a logical and rational thing to do, imo.

I have a slightly different tone when it comes to things that are not negotiable, though (this is not common at all). In those cases, he complies with me immediately and THEN is welcome to give me his input, which I will consider. Usually, this would be when I'm telling him to come over to me. He comes to me right away, but then we can talk about what's going to happen next. (It's important to me that he come to me without arguing, because it's often when he's with DP and DP has a guitar student. I don't want any discussion between ds and me to disrupt the lesson).

In your case of calling ds to dinner, now that ds has said "coming" it gives you more information- it tells you that he's heard you, and that he has something important that he'd like to take a moment to get to a stopping point. I see nothing wrong with giving him that time.

So, no. I don't think they should just do as they are told all the time. Especially at 5yo (which my ds is), they (some of them, anyway) can make some rational decisions about what is important about your request. When I tell my ds to pick up a toy, he knows that it's important to me not to have unnecessary clutter all over. So it makes sense that he would tell me that he's still going to play with x item, but he'll pick up the rest. Or it would make sense for him to say that he wants to leave stuff out, but he'll move it to the corner (so it's not in my way). He's still addressing what's important about my request, he's just finding a solution that works well for both of us.

When you call your ds to dinner, and he says "coming" he is probably aware that you want him to come to dinner (which he will) but that you won't mind him taking a minute to finish what he was working on. It's a solution that works for both of you.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

Or even me when I say "we are leaving now" and they really need a bathroom first.

Perfect example of not having all the information!!

Thus, I don't have a problem if it takes a minute for my kids to evaluate the situation. If they say "no" in the end, I expect them to be able to express that politely and have a reason, but I don't have a problem with them not instantly obeying.

Yes, that's a good point. I wouldn't be happy at all if my ds just completely ignored me, or if he screamed that he wasn't going to do what I said, etc. I do expect him to respond politely and talk to me about it.
In almost all situations, I'm more than happy to work with him to find a solution. (actually, a lot of the time HIS ideas are better than mine!).
I do want him to trust me enough to know that if I'm insisting on him obeying immediately that I have a reason that might not be apparent to him. I'm sure that it helps that most of the time, I welcome his input.

[buttercup784ever]

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy

I might jump in and say "leave him alone already! You're just upset because you can't control him"

While I agree that we shouldn't have children expecting them to be our little slaves, you are setting a very bad precedent with this type of statement in front of your son. You may feel like you are jumping in to defend your ds, but it's not just undermining dh authority, it's undermining the relationship he has with his son. It may not be right, but I would expect a man who has child rearing philosophies like your dh to become quite resentful of you and your son, and he may become MORE authoritarian in response.

In your example of not coming to dinner, how would your dh have reacted if instead of you asking ds to come to dinner and allowing him to "disobey" (in dh's mind), you had told ds, "10 min to dinner" and then asked dh to help ds wrap up whatever activity he was doing? That way ds knows it's time to finish his project or game, and dh is involved in the process.

I understand that some momma's will say that you have every right to stand up for your child, and some will even say it's GOOD for your son to see that YOU will always defend him, even against his father, but I really think this will only serve to cause more problems later on.

[Wild Lupine]

I find it very unhelpful to think in terms of obedience or disobedience. If I say I want my child to 'obey', how can she or he then develop judgment and problem solving skills? But if I say it's OK if they disobey, then it sounds like I am condoning disrespect. So I try to avoid this dichotomy altogether.

Instead, I think in terms of 'what is really important here?' Once I can define that the techniques I want to use become clearer. If it is safety, then yes, I want my child to follow my instructions immediately, and will phrase what I say and how I position myself accordingly (My children are very young. If it is a safety issue I don't assume a verbal direction will suffice and am prepared to move them out of harm's way.) If it is getting a meal started on time, I will give enough notice so that DC can be at the table when needed.

Sometimes I think obedience is focused on because it is considered a sign of respect. Respect can be a tricky one because if it is demanded it isn't really respect, just fear of consequences (parental disapproval being the biggest consequence). It might appear OK in the short term, but once the fear of consequences diminishes, there's no underlying respect and boy do those teen years become tough! Respect is a natural human response, so allowing it to develop by modeling respectful behavior and showing respect for one another (as LionTigerBear so eloquently put it) is likely to be much more effective in the long run.