What would you tell the Math text book selection committe?

[Linda on the move]

I've been asked to be the parent representive for grades 6-8 for our district's Math Text Book Selection Committee. The committe is for k-8.

(It should be interesting)

I'm curious what other parents would say to such a committe.

Please include the grade of your children and the math curriculum they use, if that would make your post make more sense.

Right now most of the students use Saxon, though some classes (such as developmental math) use different texts. The teachers supplement on some concepts emphasized on our state tests that aren't covered well in Saxon.

Our district currently has very high test scores even though we have an economically and racially diverse population. I'm curious why they want to change texts since the students do so well on the standardized tests.

[Amys1st]

My dd is in 2nd grade. Our K-8 uses the Everyday Math and has for about 5-7 years now. I think it sucks.

I was told by a friend of mine who teaches at the middle school - 7th grade math, the EM kids are coming into 6 and 7th grade now. They are having to stop and teach these kids facts. I am noticing the same with my dd. I knew my facts backwards and forwards by 1st grade and she is almost clueless. They started fast math on the pc since the middle grades are reporting this now. There are some nights, the worksheets that come home are nothing short of rediculous and there has been 2 nights where I looked at the Family Letter and just had dd plug the answers in.

Our test scores are in the high 90s to 100. We have a higher income area but we are also a title I school so we also have 25% of our population low income.

OTH, my MIL has helped her with a few sheets over the last few years and really gets a kick out of the assignments and how its taught. FIL, he hates this "new style" of teaching. LOL I think the problems mostly are fun to do and have different things like counting change, measuring etc. But then there are those days where we just plug in the answers and how there is very little practicing of the fact.

[eepster]

DS goes to a Montessori, so of course they use a Montessori based math. DS is technically in preschool, but his teachers are doing the kindergarten curriculum with him since he's ready.

I have heard students who leave Montessori after the kindergarten year have asll the fundamental understand through 3rd grade a public schools down. Number theory (including place value,) addition, subtraction, multiplication, and fractions are all taught in a manner that is clear and concrete.

Though I'm have no personal experience with Montessori math beyond the kindergarten level, I've heard great things about it all the way through algebra.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I've been asked to be the parent representive for grades 6-8 for our district's Math Text Book Selection Committee. The committe is for k-8.

(It should be interesting)

I'm curious what other parents would say to such a committe.

"Why are we learning math from text books when real math is learned through actually practicing the math with our hands and materials?"

Honestly...if you ask, please post their response. I'd love to pick it apart.

[Mama Shifra]

Originally Posted by Amys1st

My dd is in 2nd grade. Our K-8 uses the Everyday Math and has for about 5-7 years now. I think it sucks.

I was told by a friend of mine who teaches at the middle school - 7th grade math, the EM kids are coming into 6 and 7th grade now. They are having to stop and teach these kids facts. I am noticing the same with my dd. I knew my facts backwards and forwards by 1st grade and she is almost clueless. They started fast math on the pc since the middle grades are reporting this now. There are some nights, the worksheets that come home are nothing short of rediculous and there has been 2 nights where I looked at the Family Letter and just had dd plug the answers in.

My daughters school used Everyday Math, but it has some real flaws. First of all, is there enough drill [some kids need more drill than it provides, especially since EM jumps from topic to topic and then "spirals" (reviews) back? It doesn't seem to provide enough practice when the new skill is introduced]. Like Amy said, my daughter also needed a lot of work on basic math facts in middle school after using Everyday Math for all of her elementary school years.

Second of all, Everyday Math is not colorful enough and uses symbols way too early (we're talking in kindergarten, it uses symbols for quarters, dimes and nickels instead of pictures). Third of all, unless your school has a lot of money for manipulatives the kids will not get it, again because they use symbols at a very early stage. Lastly, does your school have enough time in the school day for the program. The schools that I know that use it sucessfully spend about an hour a day on math.

If your school only uses Everyday Math without any other supplement, I would be extremely concerned. I noticed that the school that my daughter went to no longer uses Everyday Math.

[Amys1st]

Thanks Mama shifra, I agree 100% and I am concerned. This started this year- Fast math which is a bigger joke. They are doing quick math quizes where you do as many problems as you can. I noticed the fast math done on a pc: a child types in their answer and it moves on. So my dd types any old thing. So how is she learning? We do math practice at home and she literally guesses a lot of the time. So we are working on them at least 10 minutes a day. I remember spending hours on facts in schools.

I am hoping they get rid of this program sooner than later.

[SomedayMom]

My kids are still in preschool, but part of the reason we chose their school was the math program. We are in a school that is Montessori in the early years and makes a transtion to traditional for 4-6. They use Singapore Math for the later years. I have only had a chance to be a casual observer, but I am really happy with that method.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

"Why are we learning math from text books when real math is learned through actually practicing the math with our hands and materials?"

Honestly...if you ask, please post their response. I'd love to pick it apart.

After years of relaxed homeschooling and real life math, I have my kids in a traditional public school and am VERY happy to have them doing good old math out of a good old text book.

There are pros and cons to either approach, and I'm pleased that my kids are having the OTHER approach right now. There are things that kids learn most easily from a systematic approach.

[caned & able]

Saxon Math.

[ecoteat]

I teache 6th grade math and my school uses Scott-Foreman math. We are using textbooks that were printed in 1993. Seriously. And they are crappy, even by 1993 standards. I would love a completely overhaul of our program, but most of the other teachers feel like they really like this program enough to want to get the new edition--mostly for the sake of continuity for the kids moving K-8.

I had one kid last year who moved to our school from a school that used Everyday Math and even though he is one of my brightest math students, there were HUGE holes in what he hadn't been taught yet. Luckily for him he was a quick learner and could compensate, but I was pretty surprised by how little a kid knew by 6th grade from that program.

I know a lot more about science textbooks, and think they all suck, quite frankly. I also teach 6-8 science (that's my main passion and area of expertise) and I don't use textbooks at all. I haven't ever seen a math textbook I felt was worthy, either, and I wouldn't be using this one if I didn't have to. I find I fall back on it since I am not as confident in that area since it's only my second year teaching this grade math. If teachers are given the support and materials to develop more meaningful learning experiences instead of using these terrible books, then everyone would be better off!

(Speaking of which, I need to go finish planning my math lessons for the week right now!)

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ecoteat

If teachers are given the support and materials to develop more meaningful learning experiences instead of using these terrible books, then everyone would be better off!

One of the problems with that is kids in different classrooms learning different things, and kids moving to the next grade and the teacher not knowing what has been covered and what hasn't.

Part of what the committee will do is go over what is done in each grade and make sure that it all makes sense together ~~ that what the school is teaching makes sense as a whole.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

After years of relaxed homeschooling and real life math, I have my kids in a traditional public school and am VERY happy to have them doing good old math out of a good old text book.

There are pros and cons to either approach, and I'm pleased that my kids are having the OTHER approach right now. There are things that kids learn most easily from a systematic approach.

Montessori math is not the same thing as real life math.

Though there are some similarities, obviously they both use real physical objects, there are many more differences. Montessori follows a logical order where lessons build on each other. There is consistency from the basic enumeration lessons through multiplication, for example by using the same color beads on 7 bars through out. The materials are clear and with out distracting designs.

[jen in co]

My DD is in 2nd grade and her school uses Investigations. I don't love the program, but I don't hate it either. I think for a bright kid, some of the challenge sheets and other stuff they can do with Investigations are great and I like the idea of the curriculum in general, but it definitely doesn't drill enough. Her teachers so far have done a lot of supplementing. They do Mad Minute tests everyday (16 problems in a minute, the kids work up from +1s to +12s and then do 30 addition problems in a minute and then 40 addition problems in a minute and then do the same thing for subtraction). They also do 100 problem timed tests in addition and subtraction every month and have a goal of getting to 80% on each by the end of the year.

[LauraLoo]

How closely tied is your school to the high school?

What are the expectations for high school graduation? I think I would work backwards from that point - what skills are expected/required for graduation? What skills are necessary for college bound students?

I recently came across a great article that addresses the failure of some educational entities to adequately prepare students for higher level math by requiring too much without core understanding.
http://www.aps.org/publications/apsn...0/backpage.cfm

[eepster]

Originally Posted by jen in co

They also do 100 problem timed tests in addition and subtraction every month and have a goal of getting to 80% on each by the end of the year.

I hate this emphasis on speed over accuracy. In the real word accuracy means much more than speed. If you hand in your tax return to the IRS and 20% of the calculations on it are incorrect, they are not going to be impressed that you managed to do it in 5 minutes.

[WC_hapamama]

Our school district currently uses Saxon for K-2, and Houghton Mifflin for 3-5th. 4th-8th are supplementing with the Accelerated Math program.

As a parent, I think the HM math really stinks, and it sounds like a lot of teachers feel the same way. The explanations are rarely clear and the content doesn't spiral. Saxon worked out pretty well for my kids though.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by LauraLoo

How closely tied is your school to the high school?

Not at all. Our district doesn't even have a high school! We are left over from farming days when this area had few homes, so the distict is K-8 and for highschool the kids are split between 2 other districts (which back in the day were in small towns.) Now the whole area is suburban sprawl, but our funky little district lives on.

What are the expectations for high school graduation?

but it's so all over the board. Some kids are math bright and *should* be preparing for university, and some kids really struggle with math and should have plenty of time to master the basics.

STANDARDS
We are married to the state standards, though. Everything is about teaching to the standards so the kids can do well on the test. Although I understand why that it important, I question it. It's hard to explain. On one hand, if the standard represents what the kids really need to know, then that is what the schools should teach. At the same time, it seems possible to get so hung up on the standard, that what is really going on with the students gets lost.

For example, one day I was in a yoga class the teacher lead this wonderful advanced sequence that 90% of the class couldn't do. It was a great sequence, but completely inappropriate for the people in the room. I wonder if focusing on the standards turns into the same time.

I also really hate kids having to bring home a math text book everynight. They are huge and heavy. It think that sheets would be so much better -- even for the later grades.

[LynnS6]

I like Saxon Math. I would suggest keeping it, and supplementing it with other things that are more problem-based. (Saxon Math tends to be a lot of rote learning.)

We've done Investigations with Scott-Forsman(?) which I HATED. This year doing Everyday Math. I like it, but I don't think that most teachers do the spiraling curriculum well, and so I don't know how effective it's going to be. Ds missed some basic concepts last year (regrouping when adding/subtracting), and I'm really ticked about that. Luckily, I have the ability to remediate this, but what about kids who don't have parents who can do that?

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

Not at all. Our district doesn't even have a high school! We are left over from farming days when this area had few homes, so the distict is K-8 and for highschool the kids are split between 2 other districts (which back in the day were in small towns.) Now the whole area is suburban sprawl, but our funky little district lives on.

but it's so all over the board. Some kids are math bright and *should* be preparing for university, and some kids really struggle with math and should have plenty of time to master the basics.

Maybe a conversation with the math department in these 2 districts would help. What skills have been missing with the incoming 9th graders from your district? What is the tracking in these high school districts for the bright/academically math advanced students in terms of math classes (do they start with algebra or geometry and go through pre-calc/calculus?) Do all students need to take the same math classes? Is your district able to differentiate instruction - remedial and advanced? I think you'd be asking the highschool districts what *they* expect and then look at math instruction and text books to meet those needs.


STANDARDS
We are married to the state standards, though. Everything is about teaching to the standards so the kids can do well on the test. Although I understand why that it important, I question it. It's hard to explain. On one hand, if the standard represents what the kids really need to know, then that is what the schools should teach. At the same time, it seems possible to get so hung up on the standard, that what is really going on with the students gets lost.

Again, I think this is why it would be important to discuss with the other high schools. Your school has an opportunity to do more than just teach to the test. There is no advantage to having students pass the standards test, but be ill prepared for additional math in high school. What is the *ultimate* goal? I'm not saying that standards shouldn't be important to the school, but if you don't know if the standards really cover what the students need to know in 9th grade, then how can you choose a text book? Unless the ultimate goal is just to pass the standards test. Are you choosing a text book to raise the test scores on the standards test, or are you choosing a text book to better prepare the students for high school math? This doesn't have to be an either/or situation, btw.

I also really hate kids having to bring home a math text book everynight. They are huge and heavy. It think that sheets would be so much better -- even for the later grades.

Honestly, in grades 6 - 8, they can handle a big text book - not that it *has* to be huge to be effective! lol! And truly, isn't this the least of your concerns?

[WC_hapamama]

Last school year, both the 3rd graders and 6th graders in our district piloted Envision Math and Scott Foresman (I think).... if it tells you anything, after the piloting was over, the 3rd graders are back to Houghton Mifflin this year.