that 9 year old AGAIN

[jrabbit]

So, we're going on a weekend trip today. Ever since we got up this morning, she's been mouthy and snotty and mean and snotty to me and everyone else. I figured out that it was partly triggered by hunger because she hadn't eaten anything but a small orange. Last week, we figured out a fairly direct correlation between HCFS and bad tantrums (even extremely minute amounts in her breakfast cereal). So, she now is on a no corn syrup diet. Things definitely improved, A LOT. Til yesterday. Only thing I can think of is that there was something the day before that I missed. But I tried very hard to be calm with her yesterday, even took her to a special sewing class that I *know* she enjoyed. But her behavior didn't improve.

So, fast forward to today. Her behavior was TRULY AWFUL. Saying "I don't care" to everything I said to her, and each time I tried to make her eat something, she'd say "I hate you." Then, her 5 year old sister jumped on the bandwagon. She said "I hate you" also - and they both were fighting between each other, as well. I made sandwiches for them, which they refused to eat at first. They are a little better now.

But my question is: how do you deal with something that is obviously related to hunger when they won't eat?

I seriously was "THIS CLOSE" to slapping the #$*(& out of her. I even grabbed her arm, pinched her and said "I want to hurt you, and believe me, I'll regret that." I was beyond angry. This had gone on for over 2 hours, while I was trying to get things packed for the trip. We don't hit our children! But I wanted to!!! I don't know how to handle things when they get this bad. I had done everything in my power to fix it before it got this bad. I told her to eat. I told her that screaming at me like that was not acceptable. I told her to go away from me and get the anger out in a more acceptable way - I don't mind screaming, running, kicking, but when she hits ME and says "I hate you" and follows me or worse, what can I do?

Oh - her other favorite thing to do when she's mad at me is to "steal the baby." (third sister is 10 months old) She will pick up the baby, scream til the baby cries, and run away from me. Our house is circular, so I can't corner her anywhere because she'll keep running away.

Well, I need to get the rest of our stuff ready. We were gonna leave an hour ago.

I feel a little better after writing this out, but I need help!

I've got "Love and Anger" by Nancy Samalin, "How to Talk", "Playful Parenting", "Your Spirited Child" - all to read this weekend. I can't find my "5 Love Languages" book, and "Unconditional Parenting" should arrive to the library next week.

thanks
--janis

[nextcommercial]

I just "let it go".

It's my job to fix the meal. It's their job to eat it. THEY will be hungry. Not you. If they want something later, "fine.. go fix it yourself". (make sure there are only healthy choices, or they will eat the easiest snack foods instead)

Just let it all go when they are making these choices. You can't follow a nine year old around and keep asking her to eat. Put it in front of her, and let her choose. Don't even get into an argument or a power struggle with her over it. Because when it comes to eating, YOU will lose that struggle. You can't even try to force someone else to eat. I would suggest giving her a meal, then saying NOTHING at all about the food the rest of the meal. Talk about anything but the meal.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Me: "Do you like the way you are feeling and acting right now"
10 YO DS, if I'm lucky: "No"
Me: "I think you need something to eat. I would be happy to fix X or you could get Y from the fridge. Which would you prefer?"

At that point, DS is likely to get get food on his own. On the other hand, if he is that out of control and won't take care of it when I present a solution and ID the problem for him, then he is invited to play in his room away from everyone else until he can be calm.

If that doesn't work, plan C might be "I need to pack for this trip. I and baby and going into my room and I'm going to close the door because I can't think/work with you yelling at me. I think you really need something to eat and you would feel better. Maybe you could eat X while I work on packing my things, then we can work together on your things." This would at least preserve my sanity, get baby away from her ability to grab and run, and again suggest the action she needs to take.

[sunnmama]

I'm pretty patient, and am usually slow to anger, but this:

Originally Posted by jrabbit

Oh - her other favorite thing to do when she's mad at me is to "steal the baby." (third sister is 10 months old) She will pick up the baby, scream til the baby cries, and run away from me. Our house is circular, so I can't corner her anywhere because she'll keep running away.

made my blood pressure shoot up! OMG! I'd blow a gasket That is both really mean and really dangerous.

And a 9 yo should not be hitting you.

Have you considered that there is something other than hunger or food sensitivities going on here? My dd will act out in similar ways when her anxiety is spinning out of control--and the day before a trip is exactly the kind of trigger to make that happen. We've done a lot of work in the past couple years to reduce her overall anxiety, and she is handling these "stressful" days much better now.

I don't mean to alarm you, but I also don't think there is any benefit to you, your dd, and your family suffering unnecessarily if there is something that could help her feel better so that she acts better (including eating appropriately when she is hungry).

[robin4kids]

O.K, why are you feeding her? I mean she is 9. Tell her that you are going to fix breakfast and lunch for the littles and that you will fix it for her as well, or she can fix her own. My 3 older children, 14, 11, and 9 (a girl like yours) all fix their own breakfast and lunch. They all know how to cook eggs, soup, mac and cheese and many of their own creations. Last year i told them that they could eat ANYTHING in the house as long as they understand that when dinner comes, they MUST eat what I serve. This means, they must not snack too close to dinner. They also know that they can't be eating junk food in front of my 2 younger kids.

It took a LOT of letting go on my part. I taught them how to use the stove, and all the safety stuff. I usually leave the kitchen when they are cooking. They know that if they make it they MUST clean it, dishes and all.

So on to the attitude. I would be very clear, if she gives you attitude then you will not be doing anything for her. No sewing class, no sports, no nothing. Then start a reward system or something. Start with a reward every evening she has a good attitude. Something small. She is 9 so prizes can be tricky. Try to work on only one or two things you want to change. Ignore all the other bad stuff. You can't change it all at once. Try to caught her being good.

[Pepper44]

This isn't entirely helpful, but have you considered hormones? If she's 9, that's an age where things start to change in preparation for starting her period in the next 3 years or so. It's certainly *not* an excuse for acting like that, but it might intensify everything a bit if she's having hormonal surges!

[Surfacing]

Janis my 4 y.o. dd does this and always has. Is hungry but refuses to eat and then instead rants and raves for an hour. Subbing to see what others have to say. I have a feeling I'm gonna need it years from now too...

[Surfacing]

Sunnmama - how have you helped your dd with anxiety? It's all over the family tree, both dh and I have GAD, he has OCD... the poor kid has the odds stacked against her.

[sunnmama]

Counseling! We went for about 12 months, between the ages of 6 and 7.

Honestly (and unsurprisingly, as anxiety does run in families!), I have anxiety, too. The counseling was primarily for dd, but was tremendously helpful for me as well. All of us improved our coping skills

[MamaKickyPants]

Can I add a book to your list? 'Hold on to Your Kids' might be helpful.

[mamaduck]

I think its good to look for relationships between environment and behavior, and as much as possible to try to set our kids up for success by making sure their needs are met. However, I think that in doing this we sometimes loose sight of the fact that our kids need to be responsible for their hurtful actions whether they are hungry or not, tired or not, etc. I don't know -- probably not real concrete advice here -- but I think that we inadvertanly send the message that, "You can't control yourself" when we bend over backwards to make everything right for our kids (pushing food, etc.) When a kid internalizes this message, they stop trying.

I also think that its easy to allow tension and stress levels to sky-rocket when we are busy "getting ready" for something.... like a trip. Or a meal. Or getting out the door on time for school. Sometimes it saves time in the long run to stop, sit down, and chill. Literally -- sit down, get quiet, and ask, "Your having a hard time. What is it that you want or need?" And really listen. Its hard to take a break when you are focused on a goal, but sometimes you save time in the long run by lowering the tension.

For hitting, kicking, screaming, and upsetting the baby -- I would probably use a consistant consequence. Honestly, I haven't done consequences a lot. But if I've done what I can to lower the tension and connect with my child, and the behavior continues... then I will "charge" my kids allowance for overtly disrespectful behavior. Hurting a sibling results in a time out in another room, until the offender calms down. Refusal to go to their rooms creates a problem... I suspend doing nice things like driving them places or making treats, or watching TV, or reading together... until that probem is addressed and my child makes things right with me. They know from experience that its best to just go when I tell them to go.

[A&A]

"that" 9 year old?? Really, mama, did you just call your daughter "that" 9 year old??

Take a look at your own attitude, first.

[mamaduck]

Originally Posted by A&A

"that" 9 year old?? Really, mama, did you just call your daughter "that" 9 year old??

Take a look at your own attitude, first.

Well, now -- I've had "that" 9 year old twice now, and I know "that" feeling pretty darn well! There are certain ages that trigger each of us more than others, and there are reasons for that worth exploring..... but feeling as though we can't take one more moment of "that child" is a very common, very human feeling.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by jrabbit

But my question is: how do you deal with something that is obviously related to hunger when they won't eat?

Sometimes when children have behavior problems and we find that diet helps a lot, its easy to assume that every incidence of problematic behavior is food-related. She might have been having issues with low blood sugar or something she ate two days ago, but its better to not dismiss it as merely that without looking for other contributors.

If it comes down to she really must eat, but is refusing, then it depends a bit on why she is refusing.

If the environment is too stimulating for her to sit and eat, then reduce the stimulation. Make nothing happen, no TV, no bustling about packing, and sit down together and have your meal.

If she is not oppositional, then taking her aside and asking (neutrally, not accusingly) if she likes the way she feels, and if not, would she be willing to have a snack to see if that helps?

If she is refusing to eat because she is feeling oppositional and isn't going to do anything you say, then I wouldn't ask her to eat. I would put out some tasty snacks and back away, nothing further said.

If she really needs to eat; you are 100% certain this is what she needs and her health will suffer if she doesn't, then I would treat it as a child with special needs who must have calories for her health - in that case, you don't do the "its my job to fix food and yours to eat it" thing - you have to work pretty hard to find foods of the right texture, taste, smell, and presentation that will entice her to eat. Entice is the operative word in this case (enticing with food presentation, not verbally). She doesn't really sound like she falls in this category, but only you would know that.

Originally Posted by jrabbit

This had gone on for over 2 hours, while I was trying to get things packed for the trip.

The worse they behave, the more they need us.

Time to stop packing, accept that you are going to be late, and have some one-on-one time with her. Its more important to get her stabilized than it is to get out of the house on time. If you're at the point where you want to hurt her (and I've been there myself) then you're late in stopping what you're doing and engaging. She's screaming to you with her behavior that she needs something, and she keeps trying the same ineffective behavior, upping the ante, until something has to give. Catch it earlier and you may be able to turn it around before it gets to the point where you can't connect, at all. Go out for a walk with her (physical movement in a new environment can often shift things); put on music and dance; do something with her she enjoys.

It might not be all food. She might also be having stress to the upcoming transition. She might also be one of the sensitive ones that picks up on your stress and it agitates her.

[jrabbit]

Originally Posted by A&A

"that" 9 year old?? Really, mama, did you just call your daughter "that" 9 year old??

Take a look at your own attitude, first.

the reason i said "that" 9 year old is because I had asked for advice about HER a few weeks ago. it was by no means an intent to be disrespectful


thanks everyone for your feedback. i truly appreciate it!
--janis

[jeliphish]

There may not be a reason behind any of this other than she is a tween and being a total snot... Which happened to probably 98% of us ladies during those hormonal and awkward years.
Her behavior should be unacceptable and I would introduce some major consequences. On top of that I would let the food issue go... She is 9 and will eat. If she doesn't eat and becomes a grumpy bear then impose consequences... She will soon then learn how to eat appropriately to ward off the grumpyness.
TV, hobbies, outings, I would eliminate them all if these episodes continue. If the behaviors aren't curbed, you may have 2 other little girls who are going to form some very bad habits.

[BigGreenDaddy]

Originally Posted by jeliphish

There may not be a reason behind any of this other than she is a tween and being a total snot... Which happened to probably 98% of us ladies during those hormonal and awkward years.
Her behavior should be unacceptable and I would introduce some major consequences. On top of that I would let the food issue go... She is 9 and will eat. If she doesn't eat and becomes a grumpy bear then impose consequences... She will soon then learn how to eat appropriately to ward off the grumpyness.
TV, hobbies, outings, I would eliminate them all if these episodes continue. If the behaviors aren't curbed, you may have 2 other little girls who are going to form some very bad habits.

That is the problem! Any time I impose consequence, her attitude becomes one of "I don't care." Then when the time comes that she tests the consequence, that turns to either "I hate you" or "I promise, I'll be good now." My reaction to the "promise" is that it is too late already for promises. She should have "been" good already.

BUT, when we're in a setting where there isn't any consequence available, what can I do? Seriously - like yesterday, tv/computer were off already. There wasn't anything that could be imposed! What would you do in that situation? That's why I was so close to violence. It was the only thing I could "do".

FWIW, about 30 mins into the trip, she was calmer. It was almost like being in the car, where she couldn't escape had a calming effect. She was much better behaved most of the rest of the day - til after dinner, when the girls both exploded again. But I digress.

Today, she's doing it again! I agree that at 9, she should be able to feed herself, and she can/does. But lately, she's simply choosing not to. We pretty much only have food that is ok to eat in the house - no candy or stuff like that, so she can eat whatever/whenever she's hungry. But when she gets into this mood, she just refuses to feed herself and literally demands to be served. What do I do? Not feed her? Not make her sandwich? Not reheat leftovers? She *can* do all of that, but she just won't. And if I don't, then she gets worse.

Well, I'm off to scramble some eggs now ... gotta love having chickens! : We brought 18 eggs with us ...

--janis

[BigGreenDaddy]

hey - who changed me to Big Green Daddy>?

[jrabbit]

apparently, I was on my husband's account ...

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by jrabbit

apparently, I was on my husband's account ...

Originally Posted by BigGreenDaddy

But when she gets into this mood, she just refuses to feed herself and literally demands to be served. What do I do? Not feed her? Not make her sandwich? Not reheat leftovers? She *can* do all of that, but she just won't. And if I don't, then she gets worse.

I would not feed her if she is demanding to be served.

Come up with some stock answers for these moods, so you don't get into arguments, and also so that your response is very predictable (that is important for my dd....it works better if I am very consistent/predictable, even down to using the exact phrasing, rather than discussing and "working with her" when she is feeling edgy).

A simple "Help yourself to some food." might be good. It would be great to have ready-to-eat food in the fridge, like cubed cheese and sliced ring bologna (I am thinking of protein food). I know how she feels, because I feel like lashing out when I am very hungry, and a protein usually will make me feel better the fastest.

After a few times (rinse and repeat), she'll learn to recognize that you aren't going to change your mind and make her something, and do it herself.

If she gets worse--she needs to go to her room until she can act safely with the family. No hitting, shouting, lashing out. She needs to show self control, hungry or not, angry or not. Lashing out is understandable at 3, but not at 9 yo.

Can you leave some protein snacks out during the day? Maybe cut a plate of cheese and crackers between meals and put it out, or leave out bowls of nuts? It would be best to avoid the whole issue altogether by serving high protein snacks before she has gotten to the point of demanding.