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Vaxing a child with diabetes? - Page 2

post #21 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
The following is from Albert Einstein:

"Examine the decisions you’ve made in your life. When you've acted on pure intuition and a gut 'knowingness' you've enjoyed good results!"

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
Are there any attestations for these "anschaulich" quotes? The first one sounds particularly unlikely, and Einstein is a regular victim of fancifully attributed aphorisms. (Neither shows up in any of the Oxford quotation references.)
post #22 of 89
Here is the quote:

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein


the source for these "anschaulichen" quotes is http://innerwizard.com/articles-othe...einstein-quote
post #23 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereseReich View Post
I just read through this mothering article here http://www.mothering.com/health/show-us-science that someone posted in another thread. It says:

"We are killing about three kids for every one kid that would benefit from the vaccine....The more vaccines you are exposed to, the greater your risk of diabetes. It's more than just an association, because we can give these vaccines to animals and cause diabetes...I am very confident that we have proven that vaccines are causing diabetes.

"According to Classen's data, 79 percent of insulin-dependent diabetes in children under the age of ten is due to vaccines.
For starters I think it is insensitive and not helpful to the mother of a newly diagnosed child to post with theories about what she might have done to bring this on her daughter.
In any case correlation does not equal causation so Classen's work is immediately suspect as is the idea that you can isolate a cause in 79% of cases. I'm all for science - but this isn't that. There are plenty of scientifically studied theories about the increase in diabetes - lack of vitamin D being one of the major ones, over consumption of milk products, environmental toxins, etc and plenty of things that have changed in our world over the time that Classen is correlating his data. I personally think that there is a number of contributing factors. And FWIW the most promising research for a cure actually uses the tubberculous vaccine to jumpstart the pancreas again.
post #24 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
the source for these "anschaulichen" quotes is http://innerwizard.com/articles-othe...einstein-quote
Yeah, I ran across that when I was trying to track the quote down in the first place. What I was driving at was a documented source, though.
post #25 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
In any case correlation does not equal causation so Classen's work is immediately suspect as is the idea that you can isolate a cause in 79% of cases. I'm all for science - but this isn't that. There are plenty of scientifically studied theories about the increase in diabetes - lack of vitamin D being one of the major ones, over consumption of milk products, environmental toxins, etc and plenty of things that have changed in our world over the time that Classen is correlating his data. I personally think that there is a number of contributing factors. And FWIW the most promising research for a cure actually uses the tubberculous vaccine to jumpstart the pancreas again.
Mothering's article says:

Quote:
"It's more than just an association, because we can give these vaccines to animals and cause diabetes...I am very confident that we have proven that vaccines are causing diabetes. We have tons of data now to support this, including randomized, controlled clinical trials."
post #26 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereseReich View Post
Mothering's article says:
Yeah I read that. If you could find the peer reviewed scientific studies that actually show this, I would be interested in reading them. Animals can and are also be bred to contact diabetes showing that there is a genetic component. They can have their vitamin D levels manipulated which leads to an increase incidence in diabetes. You can also feed them enough salt or water to create a toxic situation but its not proof that we should stop drinking water.

In any case this thread is meant to help a mother cope with some hard decisions around vaccinating her newly diagnosed child. Perhaps we should start another thread to discuss this.
post #27 of 89
diabetes has been recorded in medical history since way before vaccines.

Diabetes described by Arateus 1st century AD as 'the melting down of flesh and limbs into urine.'
post #28 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Yeah, I ran across that when I was trying to track the quote down in the first place. What I was driving at was a documented source, though.
And the only reference for the other quote is this thread.
post #29 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albee View Post
diabetes has been recorded in medical history since way before vaccines.
Sure there were people with diabetes before vaccines, but since vaccines were introduced, the age for onset of type 1 diabetes has shown up in much younger children.

From what I have read, the average age used to be 15 to 25 while now it is anywhere from under age one. That has been documented.

But since diabetes is an autoimmune disease and vaccines directly affect the immunity it is not a surprise that vaccines bring about such diseases.
post #30 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
Yeah I read that. If you could find the peer reviewed scientific studies that actually show this, I would be interested in reading them. Animals can and are also be bred to contact diabetes showing that there is a genetic component. They can have their vitamin D levels manipulated which leads to an increase incidence in diabetes. You can also feed them enough salt or water to create a toxic situation but its not proof that we should stop drinking water.

In any case this thread is meant to help a mother cope with some hard decisions around vaccinating her newly diagnosed child. Perhaps we should start another thread to discuss this.
I don't think we need to start a new thread because the information that we're talking about is relevant to her decision of whether or not to vaccinate. If vaccines cause diabetes, then she may not want to vaccinate in the future.

Here are the scientific studies:

Association between type 1 diabetes and Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/318/7192/1169
Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely.

Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism
"Clustering of Cases of Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus Occurring 2-4 Years After Vaccination is Consistent with Clustering After Infections and Progression to Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus in Autoantibody Positive Individuals"
http://www.freundpublishing.com/Jour...m/JPEM16_4.htm

"Baltimore, May 27, 2003: The prestigious peer reviewed journal, Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism published a study this week by Dr. J. Bart Classen, an immunologist at Classen Immunotherapies, and David Carey Classen, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Utah, providing support for a causal relationship between several common pediatric vaccines and the development of insulin dependent diabetes."
http://www.vaccines.net/newpage113.htm
post #31 of 89
I have a T1 daughter that just turned 6 - we've been dealing with diabetes since she was 2. It is so, so overwhelming in the beginning. I promise you that it does get easier. I second the recommendation for "Think Like a Pancreas" - excellent resource for living with diabetes.

Illness is so incredibly different in a diabetic child. We're several years in and I still get a little panicky when she has so much as a sniffle. We've had some really rough patches and she's been through a multitude of random illnesses. I've learned that as long as she isn't vomiting and there are no ketones, we're good. In fact, we can now tell when she is getting sick because we see a sustained and consistent drop and spike of a day each for the 2 days preceding the symptoms. Convenient as all get-out, which is why I took my asymptomatic daughter to the doctor today...and he found the raging case of strep throat that has her tonsils coated and *this* close to touching.

As to the vax decision...I don't believe that there is one answer for everyone. We think about it every year and have decided to handle it year-to-year. One year, we opted for a flu vaccine. She'd been through a really rough 2 months at the start of flu season and everything she had led to the hospital and to many, many scary days and nights for all of us. Fearing that the worse was yet to come, we took her in for the shot (well, shots...it's 2 the first year). Never regretted it. That was when she was 4. Every other year (2, 3, 5, 6) we have passed on the vax. This year we are passing on the flu shot and the h1n1 version. We homeschool, the kids are out of daycare and DH and I are not employed in fields with higher than normal levels of exposure. If any of that were different, we might have decided differently.

What does her ped endo say? Ours asked if she had it and we said that she hadn't and that was it, so I asked. They were completely indifferent and never gave me a word of warning or any recommendation to change our minds. Had they been concerned, it would have given me reason to rethink it as I value their opinions based on their experiences.

If you haven't posted this on the SN boards, you might want to try the question there as having special needs can change your outlook on a lot of things. The diabetes is the issue, not the vax, in my opinion, and you might get more insight over there. I happened to see this in new posts but a lot of people may not
post #32 of 89
I would have thought the later age of onset in the past would be due to the fact that most people in the past weren't diagnosed until they were well into the later stages of pancreatic destruction. People weren't "diagnosed" until their urine was so filled with sugar that could be tasted. Also, the distinction between Type I and Type II diabetes wasn't made until the middle of the 20th century. I'm sure that skewed numbers higher as well (Type II was formerly known as "adult-onset" diabetes)

If you're at all interested, there are some trials being done now for vaccines to preserve the production of insulin in newly diagnosed Type I diabetics. My husband has three immediate family members (mother, both siblings) with Type I diabetes, and we had a scare last fall with our daughter. There is some very interesting stuff out there you might want to look into. My daughter was seen at CHofPittsburgh, so, I heard about this stuff right away.

http://www.fiercebiotech.com/press-r...pital-pittsbur

And, if we're going to talk about doing things "naturally", people with Type I diabetes would be dead without injected insulin.

I really found childenwithdiabetes.com to be very helpful when I was looking for information. Best of luck.
post #33 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereseReich View Post
I don't think we need to start a new thread because the information that we're talking about is relevant to her decision of whether or not to vaccinate. If vaccines cause diabetes, then she may not want to vaccinate in the future.

Here are the scientific studies:

Association between type 1 diabetes and Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/318/7192/1169
Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely.


[]
Actually, if you read the study that was done, it states there is no statistically significant difference between vaxed/unvaxed children.

Conclusion: It is unlikely that H influenzae type b vaccination or its timing cause type 1 diabetes in children.

I find the discussion section of the study fascinating, personally.
post #34 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
Sure there were people with diabetes before vaccines, but since vaccines were introduced, the age for onset of type 1 diabetes has shown up in much younger children.

From what I have read, the average age used to be 15 to 25 while now it is anywhere from under age one. That has been documented.

the .
And, also, the rate of Type I diabetes has increased with the earlier introduction of cow's milk proteins (ie. formula instead of exclusive breastfeeding) and higher dairy consumption during toddler/childhood.

Vaccines and formula both hit their stride at the same time. I'm more likely to point a finger at the cow's milk formula which have been shown to produce autoimmune responses in some people which lead to the destruction of the islets.
post #35 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereseReich View Post
I don't think we need to start a new thread because the information that we're talking about is relevant to her decision of whether or not to vaccinate. If vaccines cause diabetes, then she may not want to vaccinate in the future.

Here are the scientific studies:

Association between type 1 diabetes and Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/318/7192/1169
Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely.

Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism
"Clustering of Cases of Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus Occurring 2-4 Years After Vaccination is Consistent with Clustering After Infections and Progression to Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus in Autoantibody Positive Individuals"
http://www.freundpublishing.com/Jour...m/JPEM16_4.htm

"Baltimore, May 27, 2003: The prestigious peer reviewed journal, Journal of Pediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism published a study this week by Dr. J. Bart Classen, an immunologist at Classen Immunotherapies, and David Carey Classen, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Utah, providing support for a causal relationship between several common pediatric vaccines and the development of insulin dependent diabetes."
http://www.vaccines.net/newpage113.htm
Do you have a study not done by Classen?
post #36 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALittleBitCrunchy View Post
This year we are passing on the flu shot and the h1n1 version. We homeschool, the kids are out of daycare and DH and I are not employed in fields with higher than normal levels of exposure. If any of that were different, we might have decided differently.
I forgot to mention that we homeschool and I think I should cause that was a factor in our decision. Although for whatever it is worth, when he went to school, we declined the flu shot then too.

I firmily believe tha the MMR *triggered* (not caused) T1 in my son. I do not believe that vaccines by themselves are the cause for the increase in Type 1. In our case, because of a family history my son was predisposed to possibly develop T1. I did not know then that Juvenile Diabetes was a possible adverse reaction or I would have NEVER got the vax. I believe the ped dropped the ball by not warning us or providing us the info to make an informed choice. Due to his strong family history, he and ALL my children should have been considered high risk and covered under the (so called) herd immunity. May he have devloped it down the road triggered by something else? Possibly. There are many other triggers. Regardless I immediately stopped all vaxes for all my children. Though I have just recently begun reconsidering the CP vax for my T1 son approaching teen years.

He wasn't able to catch a wild strain, perhaps because of his partial vax or maybe cause it's just so hard to find a wild case anymore. Anyway, I plan on getting his titres checked and if he is not immune, I may consider vaxing him to prevent CP when he is an adult. It's not like he can get any MORE T1 than he already is. Thoughts?
post #37 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I would have thought the later age of onset in the past would be due to the fact that most people in the past weren't diagnosed until they were well into the later stages of pancreatic destruction. People weren't "diagnosed" until their urine was so filled with sugar that could be tasted. Also, the distinction between Type I and Type II diabetes wasn't made until the middle of the 20th century. I'm sure that skewed numbers higher as well (Type II was formerly known as "adult-onset" diabetes)

If you're at all interested, there are some trials being done now for vaccines to preserve the production of insulin in newly diagnosed Type I diabetics. My husband has three immediate family members (mother, both siblings) with Type I diabetes, and we had a scare last fall with our daughter. There is some very interesting stuff out there you might want to look into. My daughter was seen at CHofPittsburgh, so, I heard about this stuff right away.

http://www.fiercebiotech.com/press-r...pital-pittsbur
Wow, that's amazing. I have a friend who carries the gene for type 1 diabetes and is worried her children will develop it. I'm going to email this to her straight away. It's great that they might be able to get this vaccine and never end up with the full-blown disease!
post #38 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I would have thought the later age of onset in the past would be due to the fact that most people in the past weren't diagnosed until they were well into the later stages of pancreatic destruction. People weren't "diagnosed" until their urine was so filled with sugar that could be tasted. Also, the distinction between Type I and Type II diabetes wasn't made until the middle of the 20th century. I'm sure that skewed numbers higher as well (Type II was formerly known as "adult-onset" diabetes)

.
Taking into account a later dx of Type 1 wouldn't account for a 20 yr span. In T1 when it develops, it is apparent FAST that there is something VERY wrong. A undx'd T1 would prolly only live 3-4 yrs longer (if that, some die within a couple of weeks from severe DKA) without insulin. They basically starve to death. Maybe for a T2.
post #39 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
Actually, if you read the study that was done, it states there is no statistically significant difference between vaxed/unvaxed children.

Conclusion: It is unlikely that H influenzae type b vaccination or its timing cause type 1 diabetes in children.

I find the discussion section of the study fascinating, personally.
I couldn't find any of what you're saying above in the "Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely" study printed in BMJ.

The title of the study, "Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely" contradicts what you're saying.

As for studies not done by Classen, why would that matter? The studies that I mentioned above were printed in prestigious medical journals.
post #40 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereseReich View Post
I couldn't find any of what you're saying above in the "Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely" study printed in BMJ.

The title of the study, "Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely" contradicts what you're saying.

As for studies not done by Classen, why would that matter? The studies that I mentioned above were printed in prestigious medical journals.

Read the actual STUDY. It's at the top of that page (it says "abstract/full text") I find the full text informative.
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