Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › So my mom friend commented on my intact DS...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

So my mom friend commented on my intact DS...

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I have a friend who has 3 circ'ed sons.

Today I changed DS's diaper and she commented on his intact status and asked me if I planned on having him circ'ed later.

I said no, and that we didn't circ because it wasn't medically necessary, etc. etc. and commented on how easy and simple intact care is, etc. etc. She commented that she was sure that my choice not to circ was what my DS preferred also.

She said that she didn't even know that she had a choice NOT TO circ her sons. They never asked her if she wanted it done or not, they just said, "Time for the circumcision, sign this consent form." This particular hospital was very open about the fact that they used no anesthesia and strongly discouraged parents from watching the circumcision. She said that it was SO hard for her to see her babies come bleeding and crying. They had adhesions later on and she ended up pushing back the skin, etc. etc. She said that the idea of putting her babies through that right after birth was very hard for her, but she honestly didn't know that she had a choice.

I tried very hard to make sure to direct all the blame to the doctors and hospital involved, as she was uninformed and essentially lied to. She is a pretty good friend and I didn't want to make her feel unduly bad or guilty.
She said that it makes so much sense not to do it, if it's not necessary, but she didn't know. I said, "Well, now you know that it isn't necessary to do it if you have another son." I have a feeling that if she does have another son it won't be a hard sell to get her to leave him intact.

A couple things in particular struck me after this conversation.

1) Sometimes just telling someone that they don't HAVE TO circ, is the only thing that they really need to hear. For some people you simply don't have to go on any aggressive campaigns. The first step is letting them know that circ isn't necessary.

2) What really hit me like a load of bricks about her story is the fact that the hospital aggressively solicited surgery and offered no choice or alternatives to her. What really gets me is that hospital happened to be the preferred hospital of choice for most of my acquaintances and friends. Is there any way to give the hospital a reality warning that they need to inform parents more adequately? If they hadn't solicited the surgery and had told her that she didn't need to do it and that there were no ill consequences to not doing it, my friend's sons would most likely be intact.

I have never had any children there (my children were both homebirths) but the hospital's "automatic" circ thing really bothers me!
post #2 of 21
From the point of view of the ethical and legal requirements of informed consent, information must be provided about all reasonable alternatives for solving a given medical problem (of course, in the case of the intact penis, no medical problem exists to be solved, although that is another discussion). So ethically this hospital is way off base not to even present it as a choice. Legally, it doesn't meet informed consent requirements either, but my understanding is its pretty hard to win cases of lack of informed consent ("you signed the form, and that's all that matters"). Still, any health professional worth their salt would not argue with the fundamental necessity for adequate informed consent, and they would also have to acknowledge that knowledge of one's alternatives is an important factor in valid consent. I'm sure a letter of complaint about how she was "informed" and how her consent was solicited would still be useful feedback and consciousness-raising for that hospital, even if its years later - and maybe also give her some way to vent her regrets.

BTW, I'm just finishing a Master's thesis on this topic (importance of information-giving on the alternative of not circumcising), and am hoping I can make it into some projects of practical usefulness in changing the practices of hospitals and health professionals.
post #3 of 21
This seems to me like it should be lawsuit worthy, but I don't really know anything about how the law operates in reality.

I would have her contact these guys http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/ and get some feedback from them on her options. They might at least be able to put the hospital on notice.

I would think that the lack of anesthetic alone would violate current ethical, as well as medical guidelines.

This kind of story really smokes me.
post #4 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post
This seems to me like it should be lawsuit worthy
Laws vary by state and province, but regardless of whether SHE feels it's lawsuit-worthy, her son might. She owes it to him to collect and preserve all the facts (EVERY person on duty for her delivery, for example) and interview a few of the people involved.
post #5 of 21
I've never understood why insurance covers the procedure if it's not medically necessary.

I bet that would cut the circ rate in half overnight.
post #6 of 21
I think some places insurance doesn't cover it anymore. Although I could be wrong. Could have been just a rumour.

When I had my son 2 years ago the nurse came in and said I am talking him for his circ now and we will be right back. I nearly lept out of bed and would have if it wasn't for the c-section and all. I didnt get any forms to sign and the sheet I filled out earlier I checked the "no" box for the circ. She didn't even ask, it was more like she was informing me where she was taking MY baby and it wasn't up for discusion! I was none too happy. What if I had been sleeping? Would she have just taken him without saying anything? I didn't want the hospital birth to begin with, but he was breached and was making no progress, and now they are gonna mutilate him.

Just so wrong on so many levels!
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeAndVee View Post
I think some places insurance doesn't cover it anymore. Although I could be wrong. Could have been just a rumour.
Medicaid in FL and CA don't cover it unless there's a medical reason, but unfortunately, some doctors will mark down "phimosis" as a dx just to get it done.
post #8 of 21
Medicaid doesn't cover it in TX, either. I know because my foster brother is intact. The Dr. was from outside the U.S. (not sure where), and assured her circ was unnecessary and gave her info on proper cleaning, etc. (i.e., no retraction). It was definitely and education for my mom.
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by erin23kate View Post
I've never understood why insurance covers the procedure if it's not medically necessary.

I bet that would cut the circ rate in half overnight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeAndVee View Post
I think some places insurance doesn't cover it anymore. Although I could be wrong. Could have been just a rumour.
If the CDC ends up recommending routine circ, I bet the insurance companies will begin covering it, right?
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeAndVee View Post
When I had my son 2 years ago the nurse came in and said I am talking him for his circ now and we will be right back. I nearly lept out of bed and would have if it wasn't for the c-section and all. I didnt get any forms to sign and the sheet I filled out earlier I checked the "no" box for the circ. She didn't even ask, it was more like she was informing me where she was taking MY baby and it wasn't up for discusion! I was none too happy. What if I had been sleeping? Would she have just taken him without saying anything? I didn't want the hospital birth to begin with, but he was breached and was making no progress, and now they are gonna mutilate him.

Just so wrong on so many levels!
Ugh, that's awful. I'm glad you saved him, but as you say--when you clearly did not consent, that is just freakin' scary.
post #11 of 21
I think a lot mothers don't realize they have a choice. They just think... you have a boy it needs to be circumcised.
post #12 of 21
This is part of the reason I want to train as a CBE, and find a gentle way to inform parents of the pointlessness of circ, and the risks involved. It doesn't seem like many in the medical system are willing to do that. And too many parents certainly aren't going to hear it from their parents or peers!!
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeAndVee View Post
I think some places insurance doesn't cover it anymore. Although I could be wrong. Could have been just a rumour.

When I had my son 2 years ago the nurse came in and said I am talking him for his circ now and we will be right back. I nearly lept out of bed and would have if it wasn't for the c-section and all. I didnt get any forms to sign and the sheet I filled out earlier I checked the "no" box for the circ. She didn't even ask, it was more like she was informing me where she was taking MY baby and it wasn't up for discusion! I was none too happy. What if I had been sleeping? Would she have just taken him without saying anything? I didn't want the hospital birth to begin with, but he was breached and was making no progress, and now they are gonna mutilate him.

Just so wrong on so many levels!


That terrifies me !!!!!! my girls were born in the hospital, but my son was born at home, and I know I would have had sleepless nights, if I had him in the hospital for that exact reason. Knowing all the things that they do regularly that I object to, makes me terrified of what could happen at the hospital, (rather than what 'could' happen at my homebirth) which is what most other people worry about
post #14 of 21
I am anti-circ. I wish they wouldn't even perform them on newborns in hospitals at all - even as an option. But I don't think a lawsuit over something someone CONSENTED to is a reasonable use of resources. Lobby your local hospitals to have fairer consent forms (though how many really read them before signing?), go to local pregnancy stores and ask to put up flyers from NOCIRC, post links on your facebook page, put a bumper sticker on your car - get the word out so women know they have a choice and do some research prior to birth.

If a baby boy was circed without consent, I would come unhinged and be at the lawyer's office as soon as I could humanly get there. But ignorance of the law (or medical procedure) is no excuse. If you assume everything done at the hospital is fine, then you are handing over your decisions to strangers who make money from every procedure you or your baby have. You can't give them that much power then turn around and sue them for taking what you openly handed to them. Sad that we can't trust the doctors/hospitals - but we can't.
post #15 of 21
My brother (born in '82) was circumcised without the consent of either of my parents. They had some ridiculous opt-out set up. This still flabbergasts me. My folks should have sued the pants off that hospital, but, for some reasons lost to the fog of time, my grandpa talked them out of it.

When I was pregnant with DS, seven different ultrasound techs told us we were having a girl. Well, DS was a scheduled Caesarian, so I knew I'd be separated form my baby for awhile. When the doc delivered him, and told us he was, in fact, a boy, I turned to DH and said, "Do NOT let them circumcise him!" Everyone in the delivery room cracked up. The ped that was on staff is passionately anti-circ, my OB doesn't do them, and I guess they would have had to call in a specialist to do it had we requested it.

So I think (hope?) that in some places, things have started changing for the better.
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by erin23kate View Post
I've never understood why insurance covers the procedure if it's not medically necessary.

I bet that would cut the circ rate in half overnight.
ITA

I checked with my insurance company (just out of curiosity ) and they cover it with a $15 co-pay I should call and complain. I really don't want $$$ from my insurance premiums to go towards hurting little boys.
post #17 of 21
I'm truly amazed how often I hear that parents didn't know they had a choice!!!
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
But I don't think a lawsuit over something someone CONSENTED to is a reasonable use of resources.

If you assume everything done at the hospital is fine, then you are handing over your decisions to strangers who make money from every procedure you or your baby have. You can't give them that much power then turn around and sue them for taking what you openly handed to them. Sad that we can't trust the doctors/hospitals - but we can't.
I think when most of us here refer to suing, we are speaking of the newborn baby boys who did not and could not, in fact, consent to the procedure.

Although, the issue of informed consent from parents is also very crucial. Not all parents assume everything done at a hospital is fine, but if you are told by a doctor that your son "needs" to be circ'd for various medical reasons, and not given the flip side of the coin (the truth), then the issue arises of whether you have given true consent at all. Trust me, we spent A LOT of time on the issue of consent in law school And you would be surprised at how many cases there are surrounding the issue. I don't think it is a waste of resources at all for some parents who circ'd out of ignorance, which may have been induced by dubious medical "facts," to sue the doctors. It brings the issue to light and may force a change in SOP for the medical profession...perhaps, at the very least, a standardized form with both "pros" and cons (I don't mean to imply that there are any pros, as I don't think there are obviously. I just mean what the doctors would otherwise present as "pros" anyway) that would be more informative and helpful to parents, so that they truly do make an informed decision
post #19 of 21
The problem with insurance companies cutting out circ coverage is that there's a HUGE outcry when it's suggested. Basically it's called classist, because it denies lower-income families the option since they can't afford to pay for it themselves. Makes no fricking sense to me. Should we also cover elective breast implants, since it will reinforce class lines if higher-income women have bigger boobs than lower-class women?
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewDirections View Post
ITA

I checked with my insurance company (just out of curiosity ) and they cover it with a $15 co-pay I should call and complain. I really don't want $$$ from my insurance premiums to go towards hurting little boys.
Good idea! That would really tick me off too (I'm uninsured though, waiting and hoping for universal health care, so I have no one to call at this point).
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Case Against Circumcision
Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › So my mom friend commented on my intact DS...