I don't like the way DH handles tantrums - your input? UPDATE #33 - Page 2

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by SactoMommy

The actual issue that I wanted to mention here is the tantrums.

I don't know anything about your situation except what you've posted here, but as I said in my pp, in the case of ANY tantrum, look to see what role YOU, as the adults, are playing in the scenario.

I posted an article on another thread called Misbehavior vs. Mistaken Behavior. You might want to print it off for DH to read.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by SactoMommy

DH and I usually have very good communication. We're struggling with the new stuff with DS, and we're on opposite sides of how to handle it right now. We're meeting more in the middle, but it's slow going, and we're still figuring out how to handle things in the moment when we disagree.

Of course you are! This kind of thing is an absolute punch to the gut. It's stressful, and communication is almost never going to be at its best in an extremely high stress situation. I'm glad you're going with the brainstorming approach rather than, "I don't like what you're doing, do it this way!" approach. As you said, when someone corrects you in the moment, especially under duress (an absolutely raging screaming tantrum in the background) then that feels like rejection and attack even though that is not probably the intent--the corrector is acting out of stress as well. You're both going to trip up with each other. It might be a good idea to have a safe word that when you're under stress you can use to say (not meanly) "back off, I need to handle this my own way, but no harm no foul" before feelings get hurt. I know DH and I definitely needed that, especially when DD would set off the twins with her screaming and rages (because they ARE frightening many times to younger children!), and then we had three crying babies and toddlers!

Hey, you know what? 3 minutes is three minutes. If that's what you can do right now that is OKAY. Maybe next month, it can be 4. Or maybe it might go down to 2 for awhile. You will get through this, so will DH and DD and DS.

[GuildJenn]

It's a tough situation. I think you could acknowledge to your DH that you're tired out, that it's hard, and that you can see he has good ideas. It won't hurt to try to get back to teamwork.

My solution would be not to expect him to have dinner at 6 - especially after the time change. My son is 4 and even now it's really best if he eats by 5:45. It's just how he is.

What I'm wondering though is if your DH's need for a "family meal" could be met by making a bigger deal of breakfast, when your son is not at his sensory wits' end? Maybe if everyone got up a bit earlier together?

[InMediasRes]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

What I'm wondering though is if your DH's need for a "family meal" could be met by making a bigger deal of breakfast, when your son is not at his sensory wits' end? Maybe if everyone got up a bit earlier together?

That is an AWESOME idea. Gonna suggest it tonight.

[lnitti]

Originally Posted by azmomtoone

I agree w/ the above for the most part.... except I would probably say feed your son, and you and your husband eat together while he plays (with you or in the other room, if it'll avoid a fight, IMO).

The reason I suggested eating with the child instead of with DH is so that you still are eating together with your son rather than him eating by himself. It is still family time with you and him. Instead of singling him out with a special meal to eat by himself. He still has the opportunity to watch the adult model what dinner time should look like. He has the opportunity to converse with you over dinner, etc. I believe that children learn how to behave at that table from observing and emulating the parents. For us, family together to eat is important and I try to do that as much as possible. But if it needs to be without 1 member of the family that is ok.

Also, it establishes the precedent that yes, in general we DO eat together. When you have another child, it will be you and both children eating together. Rather than both children together without an adult, then you later with DH.

We don't have "kids meal time" and "adult meal time" We just have "family meal" time, and if daddy can't make it at that time, he can eat later.

[Just1More]

Just wanted to chime in quickly and say that my ds used to do those awful rages. Whew...it was terribly exhausting. 3 or 4 hours each, 3 or 4 hours a day. Makes my stomach sink just thinking about it. I cuddled him and comforted him and validated and all that stuff. But, it didn't help ds...it just made it much worse. I think he may be a "sensory seeker", too, though I've not really researched it much. He needs hard physical contact, rough-housing...he thinks bumping into things or destroying stuff is absolutely hilarious...the tireder or hungrier he gets the worse it gets...he gets SO destructive and violent, and then he's impossible to deal with. I know he needs to eat, but he won't because he's gotten into a mood and there we are. Sometimes I wonder if it's low blood sugar or something.

Anyway, I'd distract, bribe, give chocolate, whatever it took for a while. He was too little to understand, and I was too exhausted to do anything but make peace. I remember nights on the floor with a tiny, but strong boy raging and tantruming throwing himself across me, while I tried to ignore him and get a little sleep. I would turn on a movie (I'm mostly anti-TV!) just to distract him...anything...anything...I once spent an hour playing all the ring tones on my phone in the middle of the night just trying to get through one of his "moods". Whew...

So, what worked for us? Well, Mama got tough. I decided he needed a lot less validating and lot more boundaries. He's so happy when he knows there is someone in control of things. Not in a mean kind of way, but I absolutely mean business these days, and it's helped SO much. I require that he talk nicely to me (or go sit somewhere else until he can), and it doesn't matter to me if he is tired or hungry. He must talk nice to me (well, to everyone.)

If I give him food and he refuses it, yet I know he NEEDS to eat, he goes to sit until he can be sweet again. I don't hold him or cuddle him. I gently pick him up and remove him, and then tell him when he can come back (when he is calm and ready to try again.) I think it's okay for a parent to say, "You are hungry. You feel crazy because you are hungry. You have to eat something so that you will feel better." And then require that they do it. I like to let my kids run as free as possible, but if they were ill, I would require they accept treatment, mostly. If their bodies have a need, I feel it's my job to be sure it happens. Not meanly, but it's okay to have boundaries and help kids fit between them. DS is sure happier since I started that. He's not quite 2.5, btw.

I think your dh is on track. If he won't eat, tell him ONE time, and then move his food. Tonight ds didn't want his cake, of all things. He wanted to be whiney about it and all. I said, "Are you going to eat your cake? If you aren't, Mama will." He ate it. It's important for your children to believe you. If you say you are going to do something, and don't, effectively, you've lied to him. It may be awful for a few days, but once he knows that you will do what you say, it will get better.

I feel like that was rambling, but it's late and I'm in a hurry. HTH some, and didn't come across as being horribly authoritarian or mean...it really can be done in a gentle, loving way.

[Marsupialmom]

I have to agree with Just1more.

I think you are enabling the behavior. He knows he can act this way so he is.

He either sits down and eats or goes play. It is ok to have a standard. I did. We did not eat while walking around. We don't be rude.

Now saying this don't expect perfect behavior, but at the same time to expect him to behave.

[walking burp cloth]

SactoMommy-

At my daughters school, they have these cushions for children that deal with sensory issues. My daughter included. They are round flattish cushions filled with air and have little bumpy things on the surface. This allows them to be in their chair, yet still wiggle. I will look and see if I can find a link with a picture.

My daughter has delt with this kind of raging since she was little. She is 8 now, and still deals with this. I mostly know her triggers. (some of which are allergy related.) But I need to be ON THE BALL if I sense something coming. If I don't have my act together (which is more often than I'd like to admit) then we go down that road, and we both come out feeling horrible. She is to the age that we can usually talk through things, but sometimes........ Anyways, we are still figuring things out.

My husband deals with things very differently. He used to try to lay down the law, and I could see how that never worked. But the thing is, eventually, so could he. He really had the opportunity to figure some things out. I would of course, when we were alone, point out some things to him. Talk to him about what her deeper emotional needs might be, etc. It took a while, and he is still working on things too, but often times I will find him making her a cup of tea. or drawing her a bubble bath.

Is your husband trying these things out of a heart of love for your LO? If so, I think it is OK for him to try different things. I also think it is OK to give some loving imput while you are not in the moment, (and when there are no children around.) If he is doing this for his own convenience, this is a different matter.

huggs mama, I know how draining this is for you.

http://www.skillbuilders.com.au/defa...productlist%23

[InMediasRes]

Okay, so maybe I'm enabling him. I'm still working on striking balance between meeting his needs and not letting him run our lives, and believe you me, that line is hard to find with him.

Once again, I was asking about what to do in the midst of the crisis, not what to do about discipline. Requiring him to sit at the table and eat or to not care one way or the other doesn't make a difference as to whether or not he throws the tantrum. It's about putting him food away, not whether or not he has to sit still. I'm trying to come up with the way that gets the most amount of food into him so that he can chill. Last night I set up our pillow pile on the floor so he could intermittently jump in it and take a few bites. When he had gotten some food in his stomach (and burned off some of his steam from the transition to dad being home) he was able to sit and finish his dinner.

I talked to DH last night about this and we really are on the same page with what to do during a tantrum. We made a rule to only step in if it seemed like the parent dealing with it was getting frustrated. I talked to him specifically about the guilt thing and he really didn't mean it that way, although he saw how it could be taken that way.

He also thinks I am enabling the behavior. So yeah, I let him get away with some stuff, but I have to pick my battles very carefully or I will be saying no all day long.

And when he's in the midst of a tantrum, I know how to get him to stop. I'm not saying that the validating doesn't work, and I don't like defining success or failure on whether or not he stops screaming and flailing, either. I want him to feel heard and to safe to let his feelings out, whether or not it makes him stop raging. That's really what I'm talking about here.

Oy, I think I''m giing up here and eading over to special needs. I don't know how many ways to say that I am working on finding a better balance.

[plantmama]

You and you dh sound like you have pretty good communication to me!
I just wanted to mention that even the pretty traditional, conservative child psychiatrist who gives parenting advice in our newspaper says children should not be expected to sit with adults at the dinner table until they are 4 or so. He recommends feeding children earlier and then the adults sitting down to eat dinner. So maybe you could really point that out to your dh.
I can't be that organized to do that everyday either. The later we eat the less my dss eat. They are even older than yours but dh comes home around 6 and that's when I make a big healthy meal. Dh is somewhat unreasonable in his expectations too and I feel he creates the situation for a potential tantrum way more often than I do because he just doesn't read the kids right or hasn't developed the right approach to toning things down.
I try to do an initial validation of feelings: "I can tell you are super angry about that" then if they don't seem to be able to calm down and they are getting into destruction mode or just being really unreasonably loud I often say "It's not ok to be doing _ you need to go calm down." If they go off and start destroying things or doing something that is unacceptable to me I will remove them and give them a time out....and things spiral from there since neither will stay in a time out...did I seem like I knew what I was doing
The thing that works the best actually, if I have the patience, is to try and come up with a compromise or solution. If I can keep myself from saying an immediate NO and ask them why or to clarify we can sometimes get through to each other.
My dss are 3 and 6 so we are also at a different stage than you.
I guess I would just ask my dh to stop doing the things I deemed the least effective and let him alone with the rest.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

And I don't think it's unreasonable to want a kid to sit with you for dinner either, but I have recently decided that it's unreasonable for MY kid. He's a sensory seeker, so when he gets tired and hungry, he truly CANNOT sit down.

There's your answer.

You say you want to talk about the tantrums and I understand. However, and I know you already know this, the best way to handle a tantrum is to avoid it in the first place. In this case, there are a lot of things to try so as to eliminate the situation that leads to the tantrum.

If your son is not eating his diner, then save his portion and serve it to him at lunch. If that's not possible, have him eat healthy snacks and call that his evening meal. Some people are grazers or maybe it's a phase he's in.

Best of luck.

[ernalala]

My child has sensory issues. I'm positive it's not the usual tantrums the op is talking about, not that tantrums in general are anything unusual at home. It's THE tantrum that is actually violent rage that is everything parents of these children work around preventing as much as possible. It's not a place where child nor parent need nor want to be. I am NOT saying that a child should not be allowed to get everything out and tantrum when he feels the need, but I DO mean that there is a way in avoiding to come to this point where only a freaky raging tantrum would solve the built in tension in the child that might have been avoided.

As I understand, the mother is not pressuring her child to eat, nor to eat the dinner she made, she is merely offering it AND keeping it available, nor she expects him to sit still (and eat) at dinner time during the whole meal. She feeds her child during the day, prepares a healthy balanced meal for dinner and WISHES for everyone to eat this dinner together, or at least for everyone to be peaceful together during dinner time, and not create any tantrum triggering situation.

I do think pps have been right in saying part of the problem stems from parental doings. But here I believe it is the dad expecting too much of this particular child in this age regarding how he perceives ideal dinnertime and the child is just not capable of in the moment.

When my child is just not capable to cope and/or comes to the point of utter and complete meltdown out of overstimulation/pressure/fear or anything else that could trigger his rages, what he needs is to get it all out. I am there and have him let it get out. It is damn HARD! But this and only this is what helps him. When it is out, he'll reach the point where he can calm down.
I Won't bribe him out of these episodes with activities, distractions, foods, because I see no advantage and it's not what he needs and it's definitely not whjat works. I do WANT for it to be over, but I know you can't force it to be over sooner than it is. Just finding out 'this is what is' when ds2 has an enormous meltdown helps in me coping better with him while it is going on, and it makes the difference between me or anyone else (who doesn't get this) dealing with him in a rage.

Dh got this too to some extent, and when I offer to deal with 'the rage' of ds2 he won't insist on dealing with it himself because he knows it is not a time to 'fix behaviour'. When I have difficulty 'getting through it' I may ask for his help when he's home. And yes, he deals differently with the children than I do sometimes.

But no hair on my head would think of creating such a situation on purpose, or doing something just knowing it would trigger him totally. That's not a place where he wants/needs to be and not one I'd like to experience too often, if possible.

OP, I think you received some good ideas regarding offering foods and indeed one of the things I mostly let go (but still goes against my being used to) is eating dinner typical foods at dinner or breakfast typical foods at breakfast.
Yesterday he wanted our dinner of the former day for breakfast (well tomato sauce excluded) and why not? He can have a breakfast food for lunch. As long as he doesn't stop eating or snacking, lol. I also like to eat tuna and that can be aby time of the day, while dh has aversion of tuna for breakfast. hat doesn't mean I shouldn't have t as breakfast, ykwım?

Maybe it could be good to have your dc have dinner time when your dh is not home yet (work around it with your schedule as much as you can), so dinner time as a full family won't be affiliated with struggle anymore and in few weeks time try to have dinner together again but release pressure about eating or sitting still

If my child would only want to eat at the small table when we would prefer to eat at the family table, I think of the result of doing the one or the other thing. One would mean we would all be in the same room communicating while we're all eating (and he is at least eating some), insisting on two would most likely mean no peaceful dinner for anyone and ds2 ending up not eating (wel) at all. Note: result is NOT that he'd always eat at the other table, he will eat with us at the family table most of the time (well not for long, but still he does!). Sometimes he will already eat some on his own before dinner time (of whatever foods I give him/he asks/takes, sometimes snack sometimes fruit/veggie/yoghurt,...), and may join us or dad for dinner again and may eat some more or not. What is important here is that he is offered a lot of SUGGESTIONS, but he is able to make CHOICES by himself. And yes, a 2yo can do this, too. That's what ds2 has been signaling to us as soon as he could get around, and that's what changed in the way we parent nowadays.

What's important here, is that you as a person also state your preferences and feel like you can make your choices, it's both a way of modeling to your child and and it tells your child about other people's boundaries (if you do not tell/model, he would not think there are any at all :-). So sitting still at the table may not be made a rule out of it, but you may explain him (over and over and over again if needed) it's the idea you have of family dinner because you ENJOY having dinner all together (which may change thinking from 'I HAVE to sit at the table and I do not want to have to', to 'it is nice to sit at the table with mom and dad in the evening because we're all home and we're together' etc.)
Also important is to realise that some things are just not such a big deal if you really think of it (like sitting at the table and eat then and there and that) and letting go.

About the severe tantrums, when my own ds2 is finally cooling/cooled down, what you should absolutely NOT do within the first 30 min after that, is ahum talk to him about the rage and/or be really careful in what you say or just even better not to speak to him much (counts both for me and bystanders). Because he's still very sensitive at that point. I've had situations where the volcano had stopped erupting and we were getting ready to 'mix into the world again' and in only seconds after the meltdown, people have been addressing to him/me about it and it cold trigger it so totally again (this even makes me upset on the inside) :-(.
Example: if ds raged about not wanting to eat his soup, went through a meltdown because of an issue was made out of it, and then it was 'over', and then it would be mentioned again to eat his soup within the 'dangerous' time frame, it may start him ALL over again. While, if you can be patient and have the soup just only available (may already be in the fridge) he may choose to eat it when he's ready and when he figures it's his idea completely.

I hope this was of help.

[InMediasRes]

So, here I am again.

Today we had another rage. I decided to try something new (can you believe it?!). I just knelt down on the floor where he was, told him that if he needed me to hold him to just ask, and sat there the whole time, quiet as can be. I can't believe it, but he calmed down so much faster. What the heck was I doing validating all this time?!

I think talking at him while he's trying to work it out somehow makes it harder for him to deal with. He just needs to know that I'm there, and that I will help him not to hurt himself, I guess. After he was done, he asked me to hold him, and I bounced him and held him really tight for a few minutes. He played with my hair and then it was like it never happened. THEN I validated briefly that he was upset, and it was over.

And apparently the galloping around in circles really is necessary, even though it looks so bizarre that I get scared. Who knew.

I feel like today was a success, even though we had a really awful tantrum, and I feel like it didn't color our whole day because I was able to be calm. And I was able to pass on "new" information to DH and he likes the strategy, so it solved that problem as well.

And with dinner, I'm deciding that it's partly that dinner is almost immediately after DH gets home, which means transition time. Tonight I fed him before DH got home, he inhaled his dinner, and then he and DH went upstairs to jump on the bed before DH ate his dinner. It puts someone out for family dinner, but we'll find a way to get that somewhere else.

Thanks, all. I feel like a new person today. And I tried some of the things mentioned here, even though I was getting defensive and taking it all personally . Just wanted to share our .

[Wild Lupine]

Hooray! Great job, SactoMommy. Isn't great to find something that works!

[ErinYay]

Yes, great job, momma!

There's some evidence that engaging in venting behavior will, over time, increase negative feeling and behaviors.

Granted, this is in regards to adults and using violence to blow off steam, but it does make some sense in not "validating" tantruming behaviors with the idea that the child simply needs to blow off steam. In short, angry behavior begets angry thoughts and behavior.

http://www.apa.org/releases/catharsis.html

It's good to see that you've found an alternative to long rages, though, for sure!

[jnh896]

Hooray to you for trying something different and getting a positive response! And the pp suggestion of breakfast as your family meal is great.

I hear you asking for concrete suggestions for the rages, not the food. It is so hard to separate out each piece of the puzzle when everything is so complex and interconnected.

I suggest you try "The Happiest Toddler on the Block" by Dr. Harvey Karp (who wrote the Happiest Baby on the Block) If you read reviews on amazon, you will see they are quite mixed. You will either completely love or completely hate his theory. And, depending on where you are on the AP scale, he may really offend you But, try to keep an open mind and not discount the theory without at least giving it a try and see if it works for your family.

His theory is definitely a hard concept to grasp. Perhaps the DVD would help the visualization of it in action in real life, but I've never watched it. Maybe you can get both at the library to give it a trial.

I will admit that it felt really weird and awkward the first time I tried it with DD, but it worked just like the book said it would. All of a sudden she was laughing instead of having a tantrum. To me, this is an effective "distraction" technique because it accomplishes my immediate objective - stop the tantrum. We can work on managing our feelings, appropriate ways to express them without stuffing/denying them, how they affect other people, etc. later. You can't learn anything when you are in "fight or flight" mode because the brain is shut down so your body can concentrate on getting out of your perceived danger. To me, a toddler temper tantrum is basic survival mode when they've been reduced down to this for whatever reason. (Food, toys, bedtime...whatever the trigger may be.)

I don't use it everyday or even every week. I've never used in out in public (yet) because, well yeah, I would feel very self-conscious doing so. But sometimes reasoning and rationalizing and comfort just makes things much worse for my DD. The more I talk or try to fix the problem, the worse it gets. That's when I use this technique. I have no idea how it works, but it really does seem to help her feel heard and understood and validated. I do not feel that is demeaning to her or me in any way, but I can see how some people would feel that it is.

Now onto your DH - don't have much help to offer here except that I hear what you are saying. DH is always asking me, "Why does she do that?" Yes, my pat answer of "Because she's 3" seems like a cop-out sometimes. But, I hope that if I keep saying it, then DH will finally realize that he is asking an unanswerable question. Tonight, I had the energy to include "and she is just learning how to function independantly in the world. She is testing the boundaries and limits to learn what she has control over and what she doesn't right now." (This particular issue was becaus he wanted to give her a goodnight hug and she did not want one and said "don't touch me." This hurts his feelings, which I understand. DH travels for work and he is very sensitive that she will forget him when he is gone. However, in the long-term, I *do* want DD to feel that she is the only one in control of her body and can speak up and say "don't" whether it is to a family member, friend, stranger, or predator. So I don't feel compelled to swoop in and tell her, "don't say that to Daddy" or "that hurts Daddy's feelings" to make DH feel better in the short-term.)

My DH is a logical, linear thinker so the "gray" areas are hard for him. He also wants problems fixed. Now. Once and for all. It's hard for him to remember that child development is a long process that may not follow a straight line up. Probably true for a lot of DH's, maybe yours included. It does sound like your lines of communication are open though. It does get stressful when the bickering starts twhen you are on opposite ends of the "what should we do?" scale. It's hard. You are not alone in that.

Sometimes I feel like I have to navigate between *two* 3 year olds ( a tall one and a short one) to keep the family content and balanced. When DH gets an idea in his mind, he is quite determined about it...just like DD having the tantrum. I can be that way too. It just seems like the Moms are usually the mediators between children and spouses for the sake of the family life. I'm not trying to be stereotypical about all men, this is what's true for my family.

Speaking of boundaries, another great book (IMO) about the subject is by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. They have one about adult relationships and one specifically for boundaries with children. They are Christian authors with a clincal psychology background. I did not find their tone to be "preachy" or "judgmental", just solutions-oriented. Of course, I don't know where you are on the religious spectrum, but if you in any way consider the Bible a reference guide for your life (maybe not the only one or even the most important one) or if you can tolerate a viewpoint that includes the Bible as a reference, then I recommend that you give these books a try.

I know, I know - who has time to read. Hope this helps. You will find a creative solution that works for your family. Good luck!

[InMediasRes]

Thanks, jnh896. We did try Dr. Karp's stuff at around 18mo. I had good success with it for about 2 mo, and then it really just stopped working. I haven't been able to re-instate it, but I think all the validating over and over was coming from that method. I still think that method is too focused on ending the tantrum and less focused on letting the child work through their emotions, but it worked for the pre-verbal stage.