What exactly constitutes a night waking?

[annemoonstar]

So I've been hearing about/reading this whole sleep deprivation thing with regards to night waking. Plus I am surrounded in my real life by mainstream mothers whose babies "Sleep through the night" and have been for months. We co-sleep and have since week 1. Some nights DS will go 3-5 hours without waking me up, other nights its every 45-60 minutes. BUT, I don't know that he is actually waking up. Usually he flails around and roots, I wake up, stick a boob in his mouth and we are both back to sleep in minutes. Sometimes he just moves, seemingly trying to find a comfortable spot--wakes me up, but I don't think he is really AWAKE and he often will get still again without needing to nurse. He is crawling and working on cruising now, so occasionally I will wake up to find him sitting up next to me. But then he just seems to fall over and be asleep, so I'm not even sure he is awake then either.

So, if we count every time that he wakes me up, it seems like he has "night wakings" around 5-6 times a night. If we count times he actually gets himself to sitting, its more like 2 times. And if we only count him opening his eyes and engaging in some way, he actually sleeps for 11-12 hours straight.

It seems like some "professionals" count sttn as at least 5-6 hours of unbroken sleep. Does moving around to get comfortable or nurse count as a "break" in sleeping? Others I've read seem to suggest sttn means not disturbing the parents for 10-12 hours straight. Still others seem to indicate that as long as the baby isn't completely awake, it still counts as sleeping and so if even if they are nursing it's still sttn. So confusing!

I suppose since DS is happy and healthy and doesn't in any way appear to be sleep deprived, AND seems to be meeting milestones on or ahead of time, that I really shouldn't be worried. But I'm still curious as to whether I can really say he is sttn or not!

What do you all think?

[fruitfulmomma]

IMO sttn = momma not having to get up to change a diaper or rock a baby who will not content themselves with the boob.

I have bedshared with all of my children (except the first two nights with my oldest which were totally misery and almost ended in a nervous breakdown for me) and they all sttn by about a month old. They still stir in their sleep and want to eat but it is not enough to make me come wide awake.

My current lo is 11mo and wakes up fully during the night maybe once a month. I do not count how long she goes without stirring, but in total she is asleep 11-12 hours a night.

ETA: I think the real question should be whether or not momma is getting enough sleep. In my case, and it sounds like yours too, the answer is yes.

[justice'smom]

Originally Posted by annemoonstar

He is crawling and working on cruising now, so occasionally I will wake up to find him sitting up next to me. But then he just seems to fall over and be asleep, so I'm not even sure he is awake then either.

That is so funny! I remember my little guy doing that and I swear I would laugh so hard when he did it. One minute he would be sitting up with his eyes open and the next minute he would fall over and be asleep again.
I think as long as you are both happy, it doesn't really matter. My two older children woke every 15 min to every hour until they were 7 and 10 months old. It wasn't easy getting them back to sleep either. They both had acid reflux though. My 6 month old does not have reflux and wakes about 3 times a night. I am VERY happy with that. However my sil little girl sleeps for like 8 hrs straight at night and if her little girl wakes up even once she is flustered by it. It's understandble though because they don't co-sleep so that means my sil has to get up and get her to go back to sleep where as all I have to do is give my son the boob and we are both back to sleep fast. Like you though I have on occasion worried that my son should sleep longer stretches. I honestly believe though that some babies just can't and some can. I also believe that a lot of those babies are being taught to cry it out. My sil swears she's not doing cry it out, but I have been there when she lays her baby down by herself and lets her cry herself to sleep. If that's not cry it out, I'm not sure what is. I hope that makes you feel better.

[xixstar]

when people used to ask if dd was sleeping through the night, I'd say "Oh yes, we get a great nights sleep, of course she wakes to nurse a few times but with cosleeping that just means rolling over, latching her on, and we're both back to sleep in less than a minute". I felt like I slept through the night even though I was woken several times.

now that dd is 15 months and not nursing at night anymore, I've finally discovered what night waking really is. She wakes up crying and needs all sorts of comforting to get back to sleep. thankfully, dh is great at that and lets me sleep now, but it's still a big change from nursing at night.

[Daisie125]

If I have to wake up, it's a nightwaking. But I was never someone who could sleep though a nursing babe either, so take that fwiw.

[Llyra]

I count those "roll over and stick a boob in whatever mouth makes a sound" wakings as "night wakings" because if I HADN'T offered that boob, baby would have come all the way awake. To me, a night waking is any waking that required parental attention for baby to get back to sleep.

If baby could have gotten back to sleep without my help, but I got woken up just because I was nearby-- like you describe, where baby is looking for a comfortable position and wakes you up with the wiggling-- I don't count that as night waking. We all do that, in our sleep-- come partially awake and then spend some time trying to get comfortable again.

I'd say that if you are feeling reasonably rested in the morning, and aren't too tired during the day, and your LO seems to be happy and alert during the day, that you're doing just fine. And if somebody asks if he's sleeping through the night, I'd just say, he's sleeping just fine.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Originally Posted by Daisie125

If I have to wake up, it's a nightwaking. But I was never someone who could sleep though a nursing babe either, so take that fwiw.

for me that happened every 15min to and hour with dd and every 1-2 hours with ds. I was the queen of sleep deprivation I can laugh about it now but laughing was the last thing on my mind back then.

[Louisep]

Sitting or standing with eyes open. Crying with or without eyes open for longer than a few minutes. All these require me to either cuddle or nurse and usually mean i'm awake for anywhere between 5 mins and one hour. It's enough to break my sleep cycle and since it happens between 5-10 times every night, I constantly feel sleep deprived.

I always remember the night wakings in the morning but I don't think they affect my son as much.

Interesting to think about it. I'm a light sleeper so wakings probably affect me more than others.

[lifeguard]

Originally Posted by Daisie125

If I have to wake up, it's a nightwaking. But I was never someone who could sleep though a nursing babe either, so take that fwiw.

This is totally me.

[InMediasRes]

I do not count repositioning or squirming as a nightwaking. I count needing to nurse or pee as a nightwaking, even though she occasionally sleeps through them. Like PP said, if I hadn't responded, she would have woken to be fed/changed anyway.

And I certainly count our nightly trek downstairs to the rocking chair to rock and talk to the dark for 1:30 as a nightwaking.

[Peppermint Poppies]

Originally Posted by Llyra

To me, a night waking is any waking that required parental attention for baby to get back to sleep.

DD sleeps in a hammock beside our bed, and I count a night-waking as any time she needs to be breastfed, or bounced back to sleep. Usually this is 6-10 times per night although I'm only responsible for the feeding and DH does the boouncing!

[lonegirl]

I am and was always on the fence when it came to "dream feeding" Yeah I briefly woke up for this but we were both in dreamland in a matter of moments. If I didn't present the breast then...yes he woke up for real.

[annemoonstar]

Thank you all for your thoughts--although I'm still a bit confused about whether or not I should be concerned about sleep deprivation. DS seems to be doing fine, but how would I know if it was a problem??

Last night, as an experiment, I decided to see if he really would wake up if I didn't automatically offer the breast when he started moving around. Out of the maybe 5 or 6 times that happened during the night, almost every time he just wiggled around, rolled over, got up on hands and knees and started crawling around on the bed!! Only once did he actually cry out in any way. He was just content to start moving. When I picked him up and laid him back down with me, he went right back to sleep half the time, and nursed the other half. So I guess by not intervening he did wake up more--but on the other hand, he would never go right back to sleep after crawling around during the day. Was he "sleep crawling?!!?" I may post another thread about this--I'm curious to know if anyone else's lo has done this and if/when it stops!!

At any rate, I got much less sleep last night waiting for him to wake up more fully before doing anything (and I imagine he did too), so I guess we'll go back to the original plan for now!

[lisavark]

Anne, I could be wrong here because I haven't really researched it, but I'm pretty sure that nightwaking isn't a problem as far as sleep deprivation for the baby, at least not if the baby is going right back to sleep like yours is. Babies need a certain amount of sleep in a 24-hour period, but it doesn't have to be consecutive. Even babies who "sleep through the night," according to their parents, are often waking during sleep cycle transitions--they just put themselves back to sleep instead of calling for their parents to help them get back to sleep. That's why there's so much emphasis on "self-soothing" by sleep trainers--because the goal is for the baby to get back to sleep on his own when he wakes up, not to prevent him from ever waking. I think it's probably really rare for a baby or young toddler to actually not wake up at all during the night. Adults wake up during sleep transitions too--we just don't usually remember it.

The reason why sleeping through the night is such a goal for some parents is because it becomes sleep depriving for the parents to keep having to tend to the baby's needs in the middle of the night. If YOU'RE not sleep deprived and your LO is getting the total number of hours of sleep that he needs, then you're great!

[EzzysMom]

Originally Posted by annemoonstar

At any rate, I got much less sleep last night waiting for him to wake up more fully before doing anything (and I imagine he did too), so I guess we'll go back to the original plan for now!

I think it might be valuable to try at least some of the time to get him to go back to sleep without boob, just so he can practice it some and be a little used to it. That's kinda the gentle mantra of the no-cry sleep solution. I'd often try it for the beginning of the night and eventually just go straight to nursing when i couldn't bear the thought of doing otherwise. But yes that book fully admits trying to change also means waking up more. The sleep-crawling will hopefully stop soon, my DD does that from time to time, even sleep standing/trying to walk.