bully friend, wwyd?

[biennourri]

I don't know if this belongs in this forum. It was my best guess.

My issue is not with my own child, but with a little girl she plays with. We have known this mother & daughter for 2 years and both our girls are 2. Mine is 2.5 and she is 2 and a few months. For a long time now the other girl yanks whatever my DD has in her hands away from her, hits her, bites her and even tried to push her down a flight of stairs last week. It has gone on for a long time and has just escalated. My DD is surprisingly low-key about it, just goes and gets another toy, moves on, whatever, but then the other girl immediately goes and rips the toy away from her, pushes her off things on the playground. But sometimes she chooses to try to hold onto the toy and then the other girl resorts to biting or hitting or worse. I can't leave them out of sight. Luckliy the other mom is fine with my telling her child "no" and trying to redirect her. I'm afraid to have my DD play with this child anymore and I'm not sure she will outgrow it. It's gone on for a year now and has just gotten worse. I like the mom, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop our playdates and maybe meet her outside of kid time. I really don't like the other girl anymore and I have difficulty with her behavior. Should I stop setting up playdates with other girl so my daughter can stop being bullied? I feel terrible for DD but I also know to a certain extent this behavior is normal. No other kids we know are quite so brutish. It is really constant with this other girl.

What would you do?

[GoBecGo]

What would YOU do if it was your DD acting this way? And is the other girls mum doing those things? Why are YOU having to tell her "no"?

I wouldn't be over-concerned about stair-pushing, a 2 year old simply isn't able to project forwards to consequences of that sort of thing. Pushing is just pushing, kwim, not related to the proximity of stairs in any conscious way. It's more a part of the overall "this child is too rough" problem.

How verbal is your kid? DOes she like playing with this girl? My DD has a wee friend who was very rough and difficult for a few months and who it turns out is autistic. She would always say she wanted to see him but then when they were together she would say she was scared. I just held her as much as she needed and let her take her own time with him. My friend needed me, and DD and i were a package so we just concentrated on how to help the kids cope and got on with things. We are just turning a corner with him (we as in me, his mum, DD and the boy himself) and i must admit i am SO glad we didn't stop seeing them. We just kept right on top of their behaviour the whole time, and stepped in as soon as we saw things going the wrong way. The other day they played together, actually together rather than alongside, for the first time in over 18months and it was an incredible and rewarding moment.

So, this was long. I guess i'd talk to the other mother about how you're feeling, talk to your DD about how SHE is feeling and go from there.

[Hazelnut]

I'm not sure a two year old can really fall into the "bully" category.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by biennourri

I don't know if this belongs in this forum. It was my best guess.

My issue is not with my own child, but with a little girl she plays with. We have known this mother & daughter for 2 years and both our girls are 2. Mine is 2.5 and she is 2 and a few months. For a long time now the other girl yanks whatever my DD has in her hands away from her, hits her, bites her and even tried to push her down a flight of stairs last week. It has gone on for a long time and has just escalated. My DD is surprisingly low-key about it, just goes and gets another toy, moves on, whatever, but then the other girl immediately goes and rips the toy away from her, pushes her off things on the playground. But sometimes she chooses to try to hold onto the toy and then the other girl resorts to biting or hitting or worse. I can't leave them out of sight. Luckliy the other mom is fine with my telling her child "no" and trying to redirect her. I'm afraid to have my DD play with this child anymore and I'm not sure she will outgrow it. It's gone on for a year now and has just gotten worse. I like the mom, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop our playdates and maybe meet her outside of kid time. I really don't like the other girl anymore and I have difficulty with her behavior. Should I stop setting up playdates with other girl so my daughter can stop being bullied? I feel terrible for DD but I also know to a certain extent this behavior is normal. No other kids we know are quite so brutish. It is really constant with this other girl.

What would you do?

it will keep getting worse if her own mother isn't expressing to her that her behavior is unacceptable.

i know she is only two...but her mother needs to step in...not just you. of course her mom is fine with you doing the discipine. IT MAKES HER LIFE EASIER.

does this girl hit/hurt other kids? or just your daughter?

it will get even WORSE if it's not made clear to her by her mother's standards, to not hurt your daughter. i would cancel playdates and only see this other momma outside of kid time. I've had to do that, and it sucks. But just be honest, and if she can't handle the truth then she doesn't respect your family's position in this.

[biennourri]

The other mother is often breastfeeding her new son, that is why I am often left to look after the two. It would seem like the two issues are connected, new baby and aggressive behavior, but the behavior was around long before the brother was. I can't say I agree with the other mother's discipline at all. She is more traditional in her approach, but is trying to do something and is obviously frustrated herself. Other kids have stopped playing with her daughter too. It is so hard to watch this other girl too. She is just always losing control of herself, unhappy, crying... My heart goes out to them, but not at the expense of my own DD.

It is so frustrating to me to watch my child continually get pushed, hit, bit, whatever. I feel like I am more or less telling her it's ok for others to treat her this way if I continue to put her in the situation. DD talks about it later and says the other kid was hurting her, but at the time she will just stay put and let it happen. I tried to tell her to tell the other girl "no" but I guess that's not going to happen at this stage. My big fear is that she will let other people bully her later in life. I definitely don't want her to hit back, I just want her to move away or at least say no. I don't want her to think everyone acts this way, because any other kid we know doesn't. They might hit/push/bite/whatever but they quickly learn not to, outgrow it, etc.

I'm really surprised at the sensitivity to my use of the word "bully" for a 2 year old. She is not like any other kid I've met. Perhaps there is another underlying issue. I guess if you saw her swagger up and push your kid time and time again, "bully" wouldn't seem so far fetched!

I'm still soul searching on this one. I want to do right by my DD first. Grown ups can understand if we have to distance ourselves, but my child is my responsibility.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by biennourri

The other mother is often breastfeeding her new son, that is why I am often left to look after the two. It would seem like the two issues are connected, new baby and aggressive behavior, but the behavior was around long before the brother was. I can't say I agree with the other mother's discipline at all. She is more traditional in her approach, but is trying to do something and is obviously frustrated herself. Other kids have stopped playing with her daughter too. It is so hard to watch this other girl too. She is just always losing control of herself, unhappy, crying... My heart goes out to them, but not at the expense of my own DD.

It is so frustrating to me to watch my child continually get pushed, hit, bit, whatever. I feel like I am more or less telling her it's ok for others to treat her this way if I continue to put her in the situation. DD talks about it later and says the other kid was hurting her, but at the time she will just stay put and let it happen. I tried to tell her to tell the other girl "no" but I guess that's not going to happen at this stage. My big fear is that she will let other people bully her later in life. I definitely don't want her to hit back, I just want her to move away or at least say no. I don't want her to think everyone acts this way, because any other kid we know doesn't. They might hit/push/bite/whatever but they quickly learn not to, outgrow it, etc.

I'm really surprised at the sensitivity to my use of the word "bully" for a 2 year old. She is not like any other kid I've met. Perhaps there is another underlying issue. I guess if you saw her swagger up and push your kid time and time again, "bully" wouldn't seem so far fetched!

I'm still soul searching on this one. I want to do right by my DD first. Grown ups can understand if we have to distance ourselves, but my child is my responsibility.

i didn't really think you meant bully. i figured it was a quick way of saying "my daughter is suffering at the hands of a child who is having a problem with aggression/"

[Hazelnut]

I do feel like the language used to describe her was strong: brutish, bully, you don't like her, etc. To my mind, two is really so little, even though the behavior is obviously not OK.

That being said, I think I've seen both sides. Can't say my kids have tormented others, but they've certainly pushed a couple times, and with some parents that's enough to make you feel like you're a bad mom to a horrible bully when you can't stop the behavior immediately. I've also been super frustrated when my kids have been pushed around, which has happened more than I can count. I usually get angry when the other parent doesn't do anything,and I agree you don't want your kid to think it's OK for them to be treated that way. I don't think it always scars them the way we think it might though.

My first reaction was just that a. two is really young b. maybe the child just is not as easy to redirect as some are, and the mom is trying c. or maybe the mom isn't trying, in which case I'd probably not meet up with her anymore. If it's stressful, I probably would stop going too. Honestly I wish I had stopped taking my son to a particular playgroup a lot earlier for the same reason. I guess I just wince when I hear kids that little referred to as bully and what not. Usually when I get fed up it's when the other parent isn't present or trying.

[sebandg'smama]

It is phase most likely, albeit a long phase. Totally normal behaviour.

My ds was the one getting hit by two little friends. One mother dealt with her dd, was on top of her, tried to minimize her dd's hitting and biting by sticking close by.
The other mother wasn't. Guess which friend I dropped doing playdates?

The first little girl is one of my ds's best friends (they are almost 11), I'm glad I kept meeting up, I know the mother needed my support. Nobody wants it to be their child who hits/bites.

And I can understand you wanting to protect your dd.

It's exhausting to have playdates when kids are under 4 in my opinion.

Oh, regarding the term bully, I think that implies that the child knows what they're doing, how their actions are going to affect the other child and does it purposefully.
Kids under 5 lack impulse control, it's not deliberate. Even though it looks like they should know better, their brains haven't developed fully.

-Melanie

[brackin]

I had to jump in here, because I posted about my nephew (then 3) "bullying" my daughter, who is only 2 weeks younger. My post garnered a similar response, that a 3-year-old could not be a bully, but my feelings, like yours, were different. I'd had enough of watching him taunt her, hit her, and take things away from her (and then hit her with them); we had to distance ourselves for a period of time. The hardest part for me to watch was my SIL defending her son's behavior instead of moving to change it. Fortunately (or unfortunately, I guess), my daughter was not the only one he did this to, and SIL finally saw it appropriate to discipline him when other children outside the family were affected. Anyway, just had to say I know exactly where you're coming from.

[ssh]

It sounds like the aggressive little girl is just too stressed to be able to play nicely. Her mom should take the child and leave anytime she hits, grabs pushes or bites. You should stop having play dates with this family until the child outgrows her behavior. If the mom doesn't allow the behavior, by leaving every single time it happens, it will go away as the child matures. Some two year olds just aren't able to play nice with other two year olds. They often do better with an older child though. Lot's of LO go through a period of being aggressive when stressed, it usually goes away if it's not tolerated. Using time ins and leaving every single time the child is physically rude works well. The other mom might find herself abit isolated until her DD is ready to play with same age children. But the child won't be in the habit of using aggressive behavior.
You could tell your friend that the kids need to take a break from each other until her DD outgrows the aggressive behavior. You could also tell her that playing with an older child might work better.

[ewe+lamb]

In this instance if the mother doesn't express her disapproval then the child will continue until she goes to nursery and then is told this is unacceptable.

Our ds was aggressed like this by his cousin - they were too close in age, we were staying with them so cousin was feeling very territorial etc. our ds looked like he had been dragged through a thornbush by the time we left!! It was awful. So, then this brings me to suggesting to meet in parks rather than homes or somewhere that doesn't 'belong' to any one child - I know not easy at this time of year in Northumberland but, it may work better not being on anyone's territory and keep it to that.

[Kirsten]

I have been in the exact same situation when my dd2 and I were in toddler group years ago. 16 two year olds, 16 moms (except when half of them and the teacher were in a different room for parent ed during part of each day), one teacher - set up like co-op preschool one morning a week. Really great program! We really loved it. But... there was one little boy (these are two year olds turning three during the "school year") that would attack (that really is the accurate term) my dd for seemingly no reason. They are two; I understand if they both want the same toy and one gets knocked over in the "I want it" "no, I want it" struggle. But this was him marching in from another room, beeline straight for her, push her down, walk away. It was bizarre, and it happened EVERY day we were there.

His mom tried to shadow him; I do give her that. She was a very nice and calm/quiet person who was mortified and always apologized. Which is nice except it didn't stop my dd from getting hurt. Teacher's plan was to focus on the hurt child and ignore the behavior we didn't want to see anymore. Didn't seem to work after weeks/months of trying.... I thought they should quit as my dd was to the point of making a weird gutteral noise every time he would so much as walk into school. I was so mad that her experience was being ruined, and to keep her safe I was considering quitting something we really loved - other than the issue with this boy.

So all the GD things are tried for MONTHS. One day I snapped when he came from another room, pushed her down and KICKED HER IN THE HEAD. Not a GD moment I will tell you... I picked him up, stormed out to the hall, put him down and got right to his level and and said in my sternest mama bear voice "YOU WILL NOT HIT HER AGAIN". I was furious, and he could tell. He never touched her again, but he did start to attack another boy in our class the very next week which continued for the rest of the year.

Odd ending to this story... The next year my dd went to the co-op preschool (in another town - not the town where we lived or where the boy lived or where the toddler group was) that my older dd had attended. It is 30minutes away from where we both live, and there are a good 20 preschools (including co-op preschools) closer to where the boy's family lives. Guess who ends up not only at our preschool, but also IN HER CLASS? Yep, this boy. I was NOT happy. HOWEVER, because we lived so far away (no idea how we really got to this point) we ended up carpooling! And the kids got along SO WELL - both at school and during the car trips - that they begged for playdates at each other's houses after preschool was over each time. Also ended up at the same (again we were returning and they were new) alternative multi-age elementary program - again in the same classroom - for kindergarten. And we never had an issue again.

It was really interesting for me to be so mad at the continued physical and emotional injuries my dd endured and then come to really and truly like this little boy. It is one of those parenting things that we go through.

So OP, that is my super longwinded way of saying I understand! I think it is the other mom's job to help her son make good choices, or to avoid playdates if he can't or she isn't able to. But I'd have no issue stepping in if she was nursing and couldn't get to him.

[shanniesue2]

One thought that I had... if you'd like your DD to be more assertive when another child is being aggressive to her... instead of redirecting the other child (which should be the mama's responsibility IMO), maybe you should direct you're own DD in how you want her to stick up for herself. i.e. when the other little girl starts hitting or whatever, go to you're own little girl and have her practice saying, "STOP" If your dd won't say that, then say it for her. Get down on her level, right up next to your DD, facing the child and say, "STOP." If the other little girl doesn't stop then tell you're daughter "you don't have to play with someone who is hurting you. Let's go over here and do xyz for a while." If the little girl who is being aggressive follows and continues to hurt your daughter, then I would insist that the little girl's mother step in.

I think that if you work on teaching your DD to be more assertive and that it's okay to stop playing with the other little girl when she gets aggressive that it will not only help your daughter learn to stick up for herself, but maybe the other little girl will start to learn that a natural consequence of being aggressive is that people will not want to play with her. I'm sure the other little girl doesn't realize why other playdates have stopped because it's all been handled between the adults. But maybe if she can see in the middle of a playdate that people are going to stop playing with her when she behaves that way, it will send more of a message, ykim?

[biennourri]

Thanks for all the insights. I do know that 2 year olds cannot control themselves well. I stopped going to a playgroup for a while until a 2 yo boy "graduated" that would target DD when she was a baby, actually throwing things at her head. At the time I felt sorry for the other mother.
I can't say her son has mellowed a whole lot, 2 years on.

One of my early memories was of a kid coming over for a playdate and being really rough with me. I remember being really scared and overpowered. I don't want to be a hover-mother, but I'm definitely stepping in if there is biting involved.

I like the suggestion of getting down at their level and saying "no" for DD and saying that she doesn't need to play with someone who is being aggresssive (was that the word? I'll reread it). Even though they are really little, I want to get across to DD that it's okay to have boundaries when someone is hurting you and it's her choice (the one she *should* make) to stop interacting with someone who is hurting her. She just looks at other girl and doesn't really react. I just want her to say "no" or stop just observing and participate in protecting herself. I know, too much to ask of a 2 year old. Work in progress.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by sebandg'smama

It's exhausting to have playdates when kids are under 4 in my opinion.

Yup. And the benefits are dubious. Its more for the parents, I think, who desperately (I know I was one!) need adult to adult interaction. But for the child? Too stressful. They do much better at that age with a patient adult who recognizes that their need at this age is to explore and manipulate their environment. Social development comes later.

I wouldn't label any child anything at this age (not even a positive label, "she plays so well with others!"); I would just chalk it up to providing an environment not suitable to their developmental level and the behavioral challenges that come with that.

You can try to reduce the behavioral challenges by setting up the environment to support parallel play - which is where they at, socially - and reduce conflict. Providing interesting sensory activities and a plethora of things to choose from (so there isn't as much competition) can help. The sensory activities need to be large enough so that the children aren't bumping into each other or competing for space. So, for example, having 3 "stations:" One table for fingerpainting, one area for water play (big tub set up with toys floating about), and one area for gross motor (e.g. swinging, climbing, jumping, etc). Then when conflict occurs its usually pretty easily to redirect such a young child to another activity because everything is so interesting.

[ssh]

My DD is almost 4(in 6 days) and she just started being able to tell other kids "No! and Stop!" when they were hitting or grabbing. Her preschool teacher has been working on it too. DD would usually just stare at the other kid. So it takes some kids awhile before they can show assertiveness. I've never let anyone be too aggressive with her, I pick her up. Also when she went through a pushing phase or threw sand at someone I'd say 'if you can't play nice you can't play' and we'd leave. When she calmed down I'd explain that we had to keep everyone safe and so forth. The pushing stuff didn't last long and it was mostly when she was getting tired or hungry.

Reading about your memory of scary playdates just makes me feel stronger about the idea that having no play dates is better than having ones that don't work. I'd really stop having your DD play with this child for awhile or go to a playground where they can play separately in the same space.

[mama2mygirl]

I don't think a two-year-old can be a bully. She's not even 2.5. But if you don't enjoy the playdates, why not just stop?

[finn'smama]

Originally Posted by mama2mygirl

I don't think a two-year-old can be a bully. She's not even 2.5. But if you don't enjoy the playdates, why not just stop?

I've had to take breaks from different playdates at different times. Some kids just don't mix well at all times.