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Second UTI and not retractable

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
My DS, who is 4, recently had his 2nd UTI in a year. Our Ped is awesome and has never touched his penis. I don't even think he's looked at it. We were referred to a urologist because of his recurrent UTI's. I expressed my concern with our ped that I wanted to make sure that we went to a non-circ friendly doc because the last one we went to insisted it was because my son was not circ. I was livid.

Anywho...jump to today. We are at the docs and she starts in on doing an ultrasound and needing to do this procedure where they determine if he has reflux and that it would be treated with long term antibiotics. None of these choices are capish with me.

Then she moves to actually examining him and of course the first thing she does is push his foreskin back. I told her not to retract it and she just sorta looked at me. Once she realized that DS is not retractible not even in the slightest, she immediately said that was the reason he was getting infections. She insisted that I needed to be more aggressive at getting his foreskin to retract (she said not to force it) but do more than we've been doing. She also said that by looking at it, she felt he needed to be circ'd. I looked at her and told her to forget about it. It was not happening. I came so close to picking him up and walking out of there.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that they assume that just because he isn't retractable he is getting infections.

I need ammunition for when we do our follow-up. I need reasons to show them that just because he isn't retractable means that is the reason he gets UTI's.

I'm also not sure how to handle these infections. They want to do an invasive procedure to determine the problem and then if he has reflux he will be on long term antibiotics. I'm not happy with either of those. How do I assure these doctors that he is fine and it's not because he is uncir'd and not retractable?

Also...am I correct in assuming it is completely normal for him to not be retractable at all at his age. He still has what I refer to as a "bottle neck". Does that make sense? He's not even close to seeing the tip of his penis.
post #2 of 18
of course you're right that jumping to circ is a poor judgment. but as for the rest of the doc's advice...well, if it's reflux, you at least need to know that, regardless of what treatment you decide to do. i know you don't want to do anything invasive (who does want to with a kid?!), but reflux can be serious, and you need to protect his kidneys by finding out what's going on in there.
post #3 of 18
Does he "balloon" when he pees? In the (few, i only have a DD - seen lots of grown men's but obviously they were all retractable) baby boy penis's i have seen the foreskin sort of dilates a little when they are peeing, so the tip is kind of visible through the hole (if you want pee in your eye a second later!). If he isn't ballooning when he is peeing then his foreskin isn't obstructing his urine flow at all (in fact even WITH ballooning it's not usually necessary to circumcise).

He is not at all rare in being non-retractable at age 4. How many UTI's has he had in his life? 2 a year might sound a lot, 2 ever doesn't.
post #4 of 18
Where are you located maybe the the find your tribe area would be able to help you locate a 'smart foreskin doctor because the ones you been seeing are a big fat UV so you need to find someone smarter

Is this year the only time had 2 UTI ? What part of year did they occur ? Does he have a bubble bath ? Are you using any soap on the foreskin ? Is he staying hydrated ?

Was there an actual urinalysis done and was that done through a catheter , cup or baggie ?

I would avoid bubble bath & using soap on foreskin.

In case if there was no urinalysis done & the doctor just went by sxs like inflamed foreskin, not wanting to pee or ballooning then more likely he didn't have UTI just suffered from seperation trauma.

Sometimes kids during seperation trauma can complain about pain during peeing or burning feeling during peeing which is a common sxs of a uti but there pain is coming from acidy urine burning over microtears .

So anyways , peeing in warm water helps dilute the acid of the urine !
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
He is not at all rare in being non-retractable at age 4. How many UTI's has he had in his life? 2 a year might sound a lot, 2 ever doesn't.
DH retracted at 10 or 11 - never had an issue in his life. Why can't we have more intact-knowledgeable doctors in this country?
post #6 of 18
i often see it recommended to visit doctorsopposingcircumcision.org when looking for a foreskin-friendly doc. even if you can't visit one, perhaps you could speak w/ one.

if this is 2 uti in his life, it may not be a problem, but in a short period of time, perhaps. either way, if there is reflux, you would want to know regardless of the treatment option you choose (i too would stay away from long term abx).



Sus
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk8ermaiden View Post
DH retracted at 10 or 11 - never had an issue in his life. Why can't we have more intact-knowledgeable doctors in this country?
It must be really annoying (i'm in the UK). Take heart though, every boy born now and left intact is creating a greater and greater demand for intact-intelligent docs in the future. It's hard work now but you're creating the future you desire (and your boys and men deserve) by taking a stand now.
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys. He's had 2 UTI's in the past year but no others. He's just finishing antibiotics for the last one. The first was just about a year ago. I haven't noticed any ballooning at all, but then again, he won't let me stand around and watch him pee.

He did have a urinalysis both times. Both times he peed in a cup.

I did speak to our normal ped who is very intact friendly. He doesn't believe it has anything to do with his retractability like the urologist thinks, but he did understand that not being retractable could post an increased risk to someone who was already prone to uti's. If my son is predisposed to uti's and there is urine that is left sitting in the foreskin, then he feels it could increase the risk of it turning into an infection.

He said he would not normally advocate worrying about the retractability, but he said in my son's case, it might not hurt to gently encourage the process. He suggested talking to my son about it and encouraging him to pull the foreskin back slightly when he is peeing to prevent urine from accumulating under the skin. He also suggested such things and vit e. ointment once a day to loosen things up. He didn't suggest forcing the skin to retract only encouraging it to move along.

It was good talking to him because I know we are on the same side. He does still believe that the problem isn't from him being unretractable. he feels it's coming from something else.
post #9 of 18
Ok, that's all good info!

2 UTI's in a year aren't very reassuring, but 2 in his whole life aren't much of a concern to me, also 2 nearly a year apart isn't really 2 a year either if you kwim. My friend's DS has had 3 this year (intact but in the UK where everyone is) and the first 2 times they didn't give him AB's, just cranberry juice (which he is willing to drink gallons of due to loving it) and close supervision. The last time they did full labs on his urine and found e.coli - he's been touching his bum a lot and it seems then touching his penis... Problem solved (kind of) they just have him wash his hands more often and distract when he's fiddling with his bum (an initial threadworm problem has been treated but he just likes to touch there now ). Try asking your paed what he would do if your DS was a DD - it's amazing how much less they worry about girls when there isn't anything to "do" about it (i.e. cut off).

If the UTI's continue (at the rate of 2 a year or more) i would probably have the reflux test done - it isn't fun but nor is long-term kidney damage, or heaven forbid, dialysis. Remember you can have the test done and THEN consider the treatment options YOU think are acceptable, it's not an inevitable path to long-term AB's, there are other options and it will be YOUR call every step.
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
Does he "balloon" when he pees? In the (few, i only have a DD - seen lots of grown men's but obviously they were all retractable) baby boy penis's i have seen the foreskin sort of dilates a little when they are peeing, so the tip is kind of visible through the hole (if you want pee in your eye a second later!). If he isn't ballooning when he is peeing then his foreskin isn't obstructing his urine flow at all (in fact even WITH ballooning it's not usually necessary to circumcise).

He is not at all rare in being non-retractable at age 4. How many UTI's has he had in his life? 2 a year might sound a lot, 2 ever doesn't.
Ballooning is common, normal and harmless.
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by shllywlly View Post
He did have a urinalysis both times. Both times he peed in a cup.
Did they have him clean the tip throughly with an antiseptic first? and what were his symptoms?

If I was confident in the UTI dx, then I would say yes to the reflux test, but no to working on making him retractable.

One of the advantages of leaving boys intact is that if they have reflux they are more likely to be symptomatic and it gets caught earlier. Circ'd boys who don't get dx'd with UTIs are less likely to have their reflux treated at an early age to avoid kidney damage. The way to catch it is the reflux test.

Trying to get you DS to be retractable can cause all kinds of problems. One of which is more UTIs. The most dangerous would be paraphimosis which is rare but can cause great damage to the penis and may necessitate a dorsal slit in the foreskin (it does not necessitate a circ, but some Drs think it does, and do to the rush in fixing it arguing with them is complicated.) Most likely though it will just cause your DS a lot of discomfort.
post #12 of 18
Is ballooning always harmless?
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
Is ballooning always harmless?
As long as the foreskin does empty by itself.

It is a common reason that boys are circumcised, but that is b/c Drs don't have a clue.
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by shllywlly View Post
...I did speak to our normal ped who is very intact friendly. He doesn't believe it has anything to do with his retractability like the urologist thinks, but he did understand that not being retractable could post an increased risk to someone who was already prone to uti's. If my son is predisposed to uti's and there is urine that is left sitting in the foreskin, then he feels it could increase the risk of it turning into an infection.

He said he would not normally advocate worrying about the retractability, but he said in my son's case, it might not hurt to gently encourage the process. He suggested talking to my son about it and encouraging him to pull the foreskin back slightly when he is peeing to prevent urine from accumulating under the skin. He also suggested such things and vit e. ointment once a day to loosen things up. He didn't suggest forcing the skin to retract only encouraging it to move along...
I do not think this is accurate. I would really get a second opinion on this, he may be supportive, but he does not sound like he has all the facts. Here are some excerpts from http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org that may help.



Regards,

*********************
Urinary Tract Infections

Ginsburg & McCracken (1982), who studied urinary tract infection (UTI) in male infants at Parkland Hospital in Dallas, noted that 95% of the infant male UTI patients were not circumcised.34 They speculated that lack of circumcision may have contributed to the infection in some way. However, Parkland Hospital, a public hospital, did not perform neonatal circumcisions, even if patients demanded it,35 so most of the client population at Parkland must have been noncircumcised—a fact apparently overlooked by Ginsburg & McCracken.

This observation prompted Wiswell et al. to produce retrospective studies regarding UTI in circumcised infant males as compared with uncircumcised males. The studies all have serious methodological flaws, including failure to control for confounding factors, which include maternal infection, perinatal anoxia, high or low birthweight, prematurity of birth, rooming in, method of urine sample collection, type of hygienic care, and breastfeeding. The Fetus and Newborn Committee of the Canadian Paediatric Society (1989) examined data provided by Wiswell et al. and reported that they found Wiswell’s data to be “not sufficiently compelling to justify a change in their existing policy that circumcision is unnecessary and should not be performed."36 Altshul (1990) pointed out that the studies had only shown association, not cause and effect.37 Thompson (1990) found that “unequivocable proof that lack of circumcision is a risk factor for increased urinary tract infection is currently unavailable.”38 Chessare (1993) compared the alleged advantage of preventing UTI with the disadvantages of complications and found that, even if Wiswell was correct in his claims, non-circumcision would still produce the highest medical utility.39

Evidence from Israel establishes a compelling association between ritual circumcision on the eighth day and immediate post-circumcision UTI.40-42

Mueller et al. (1997) reported no difference in the incidence of UTI in circumcised and non-circumcised boys with normal urinary tract anatomy.43

To put this matter into perspective, a Swedish study by MĂĄrild et al. (1998), where infant circumcision is not practiced, found that, in the first six years of life, the incidence of UTI in boys was 1.8 percent, but in girls it was 6.6 percent.44 UTI infection in boys was rare after the first year of life. When UTI does occur, it is easily treated medically. McCracken (1989) and Larcombe (1999) report UTI infections respond rapidly to anti-microbial therapy.,45,46

The Task Force on Circumcision of the American Academy of Pediatrics, in their “evidence-based” statement, reported serious methodological flaws in all existing studies, and declined to recommend circumcision to reduce UTI.22 The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) says routine non-therapeutic circumcision “cannot be justified on the basis of preventing a UTI.”47

The consensus of medical opinion is that circumcision is of little, if any, value in reducing UTI. Risk, complications, an disadvantages of circumcision outweigh any reduction in UTI. The notion that neonatal male circumcsion can prevent UTI increasingly is being viewed as a medical myth – one started by Ginsburg & McCracken’s failure to recognize that the client population at Parkland Hospital in Dallas was mostly noncircumcised.

Medical authorities now recommend breastfeeding, not circumcision, to reduce UTI in infancy.48,49 Moreover, Hansen (2004),50 and MĂĄrild & others (2004)51 report that breastfeeding continues to have a protective effect even after weaning.

Kwak et al. (2004) report that circumcision after anti-reflux surgery to prevent UTI is not effective. 52

***************************

The great majority of newborn infant boys are born with the inner surface of the prepuce fused with the glans.2 In addition, the tip of the prepuce at birth usually is too narrow to allow retraction. The duration of these conditions vary with the individual but can last until the completion of puberty or longer. For these two reasons, the non-retractile foreskin is normal in childhood and adolescence and cannot be considered a disease requiring treatment.

The first data on development of the retractile prepuce was provided in 1949 by British pediatrician Douglas Gairdner.22 Gairdner said 80 percent of boys have a retractable foreskin by the age of two years, and 90 percent of boys have a retractable prepuce by the age three. His erroneous information23 has been incorporated into medical textbooks and medical school curricula for decades, and it still is repeated in medical literature today.24

Gairdner’s data are inaccurate23-25 and, unfortunately, most healthcare providers have been taught this inaccurate information,24,25 which contributes to improper diagnosis of “pathological phimosis” in the healthy, normal, non-retractile foreskin. Retractability usually occurs much later than previously believed.2,24,25 About 44 percent of boys have a fully retractable prepuce by age 10-112,27,28,29 and about 95 percent have a fully retractable prepuce by age 18.2,27 Non-retractile foreskin is the more common condition until 10-11 years of age. Thorvaldsen & Meyhoff (2005) report that the mean age of first foreskin retraction is 10.4 years.29 Non-retractile foreskin in childhood and adolescence is not a disease and does not require treatment.

Ballooning of the prepuce in childhood during urination is harmless and self-limiting. Babu et al. (2004) have shown that ballooning does not cause obstructed voiding.30 Ballooning disappears with increasing maturity. No treatment is required.31

*********************
"The prepuce, [or] foreskin, is normally not retractile at birth. The ventral surface of the foreskin is naturally fused to the glans of the penis. At age 6 years, 80 percent of boys still do not have a fully retractile foreskin. By age 17 years, however, 97 to 99 percent of uncircumcised males have a fully retractile foreskin. Natural separation between the glans and the ventral surface of the foreskin occurs with the secretion of skin oils and desquamation of epithelial cells, [or] smegma.”
Roberton's Textbook of Neonatology also warns:

“Forcible retraction in infancy tears the tissues of the tip of the foreskin causing scarring, and is the commonest cause of genuine phimosis later in life.”
Avery's Neonatology, issues a further warning :

'Forcible retraction of the foreskin tends to produce tears in the preputial orifice resulting in scarring that may lead to pathologic [i.e., in this case, iatrogenic, or physician-induced] phimosis.”
Similarly, Osborne's Pediatrics notes that phimosis or paraphimosis is “usually secondary to infection or trauma from trying to reduce a tight foreskin…” Moreover, they later state, “circumferential scarring of the foreskin is not a normal condition and will generally not resolve.”

And even the American Academy of Pediatrics, (those who formerly discouraged breastfeeding and encouraged daily forced retraction of intact boys) has now changed its tune:

“...foreskin retraction should NEVER be forced. Until separation occurs, do NOT try to pull the foreskin back - especially an infant's. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin. " (From the AAP bulletin, "Care of the Uncircumcised Penis").

*******************

And finally this may help:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...kinleaflet.pdf
post #15 of 18
Oh, if you do go with the reflux test, make sure that the person inserting the catheter knows how to without retracting.
post #16 of 18
See i'm in the UK and GP's DO like to monitor boys who balloon AND have UTI's (just ballooning not so much, it has to be the combo) though i have never known anyone advised to circ because of it, it's simply not regarded as an option in the UK unless there is a serious ongoing problem which hasn't responded to every other option. I kind of got from that that ballooning+UTI's= might be related, something to keep an eye on, though ballooning+infrequent/no UTI's usually harmless. I did also kind of ask that to see if that as the frame for the urologist talking about circ'ing, since i know a lot of US docs think EVERYTHING about the foreskin is wrong/medically risky and always want to chop them off at the drop of a hat.

I have a friend whose son had ballooning from birth and then UTI's from about age 2 (about 3-4 in a year) and they dismissed his ballooning as a problem BECAUSE he'd always done it. He's 7 now, and seems to have grown out of bot the UTI's and the ballooning (though she doesn't watch him pee anymore!).

I live and learn! Thanks
post #17 of 18
You've gotten crummy advice about the foreskin from your docs.

My son had one long UTI we couldn't get cleared up over a number of months. Our ped had an ultrasound done. She then sent us to a ped. I took him to our family doctor first just to see what he thought. He gave me the worst info - said DS needed to be circ'd, not to let him take a bath at all, etc.

The one foreskin friendly urologist I could find said that before they'd even see him we needed to have the VCUG done. Um, no, not putting him through that first.

So, I found another urologist. He was pretty neutral and said a circ might help but once you remove the foreskin and the infection persists it's not like you can put it back on. After looking at the ultrasound reports he said that he was pretty sure it wasn't reflux. That undiagnosed reflux by the age of four he usually sees abnormal ultrasound results - not always but most of the time.

I had him look at all of the lab reports from the urinalysis we had done and asked if it could be the same infection that never fully cleared up. He agreed it might be. Another momma on here had recommended an antibiotic (can't remember the name). I asked him about it and he thought it was worth a three week course to see if it would work. He said if it didn't clear it up then he would want to do a VCUG.

After three weeks DS was great. In that time we also found out that he was wiping his bottom and then dabbing at the tip of his penis to get off the drips of urine. So, I learned that even boys need to be taught how to wipe from front to back.

He knows now not to wipe that way and also knows to wash his hands before playing with his penis. We've explained that touching his penis with dirty hands can introduce the bacteria that caused his infections. He understood it and is pretty good at remembering.

From what I understand ballooning is a normal part of the separation process. Do not feel the need to speed it along. What in the world do these docs tell their female patients???

Stick to your guns. I learned to keep repeating "circumcision is not an option." If they can treat girls with UTIs without circ'ing they can do the same for boys.

I hope your son is feeling better and doesn't get another infection.
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
Does he "balloon" when he pees? In the (few, i only have a DD - seen lots of grown men's but obviously they were all retractable) baby boy penis's i have seen the foreskin sort of dilates a little when they are peeing, so the tip is kind of visible through the hole (if you want pee in your eye a second later!). If he isn't ballooning when he is peeing then his foreskin isn't obstructing his urine flow at all (in fact even WITH ballooning it's not usually necessary to circumcise).

He is not at all rare in being non-retractable at age 4. How many UTI's has he had in his life? 2 a year might sound a lot, 2 ever doesn't.
Ballooning is NEVER a reason to circ it is an normal part of development for some boys. It just means the foreskin is no longer attached to the glans but the sphincter at the tip is not ready to relax enough yet to retract that happens due to hormones.
http://www.cirp.org/library/hygiene/
Quote:
The separation of the foreskin from the glans penis. Ballooning of the prepuce while urinating cannot occur until separation is underway. The occurence of ballooning indicates that separation has started.15 Babu et al. have proven that ballooning does not interfere with urination.21 Ballooning is a normal developmental stage and is not a cause for concern and does not require treatment.16 20 A child temporarily may report some discomfort or pain while urinating during this period. This occurs because the ballooning may tear at any residual connection to the glans. The discomfort will stop when separation is complete. The foreskin may still not be retractable at this point because the opening is still narrow. With increased growth and maturity, the ballooning will end when opening of the foreskin widens.
From the U.K.

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_...reatments.html
Quote:
Ballooning of the foreskin while urinating can be a normal phase of development during childhood. It is not an indication for circumcision. Ballooning is a temporary phenomenon that arises when the foreskin begins to separate from the glans. It speeds the process of separation and disappears when the process is complete.


Even if urine is left under the foreskin it will not cause an infection. For one thing it will be pushed out very fast in the undies since the foreskin still hugs the glans. I would never try to make it go back faster that is absurd advice from the ped. all you will do is possibly introduce bacteria leading to more infections. No good can ever come of trying to make a foreskin retract when it isnt ready.

You might consider the VCUG but it is invasive involving cath. and dye injected into the bladder. It isnt fun at all and I would never say do one for a first time UTI but a second I would be considering it.
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