Potty learning and Montessori

[kittykat2481]

This is partially a potty learning question, but I'm posting it here since the issue is in regards to pl'ing at my son's Montessori school. I'm in a hurry, but I will try to make sense.

Ok, so DS has been doing surprisingly well with pottying considering that he's a 23 month old boy on day 3 of going cold turkey to underwear. He went all weekend without making it all the way through the pack of underwear we bought. I think 2 accidents each day, and all of them were early in the morning when daddy was "watching" him - aka, not reminding him often enough.

So I go to pick him up today and the director is filling in for a little bit in the afterschool room (his normal afterschool teacher is out of town, and his classroom teacher was gone for the day). I asked her when was the last time he had gone potty, and she said (sort of huffy) "He just had an accident. He's done nothing by have accidents all day." Ohhhh K. She said he won't pee in the toilet and acted shocked when I said that he pees in the potty at home. So I take Corbin back to the restroom in his class where we can have some privacy (all the kids and teachers were gone) and talk to him about it. I told him he needed to go potty before we left. He said "Not yet" and put his head on my shoulder, and cuddled me. He doesn't normally act like that at school. I could tell he was upset. I reminded him that he was wearing his elmo underwear and didn't want to get them dirty. He said not yet. I asked him if he would rather wear a diaper. I didn't say it like it was a punishment - just an honest question. He said no, big boy pants. So we leave, stop by the pizza place, pick up some fruit at the store, and on the way home he said "peepee poopoo". It took me almost 10 minutes to get home from there, but as soon as we got home, he sat on the potty and peed!

The worst part of it, for like the next hour he seemed like he was in a funk. I asked him "Is Corbin happy?" to which he usually responds, happy... mommy happy, daddy happy, etc. Today, he said "No. Sad!"

Regarding his readiness, he's 23 months and this is the second time he has shown interest in the potty. The first time was around 16 months, and we just didn't follow through with him enough. Then around 19-20 months he sort of lost interest. He can hold his urine for a short period of time, relax to go when he's on his little potty, unsnap and unzip his jeans, pull his pants up and down, wash his own hands without help... He wants to be successful and when he is he proudly shakes his hiney and says "Me did it!" I think he has anxiety about using regular toilets/public toilets. He will sit on the toilet at home, but rarely uses it, and doesn't seem to be using the toilets at school either. He won't sit on a public toilet when we're out, so for now I just bring a potty with me and let him use it in the car.

I'm not even sure what my question is. I think I was just upset over the situation today. To be fair, his normal teacher doesn't even use the word "accident" and neither do I. He's not even 2 yet and trying so hard. I don't want him to get the impression that he's done anything wrong. He is amazing me with his success at home! I just don't know how to handle the situation at his school. The director already mentioned that they wouldn't have room for his little potty in the restroom, and that I should just make him use the toilet at home so he gets used to it.

So I guess my question is, how do I handle this, in the context of a Montessori classroom - fostering respect and independence, while meeting the individual needs of my child?

[MattBronsil]

24 months is not an unusual time to still not be potty trained. My initial thoughts:

1) Children are sensitive to order. It sounds to me like he goes to the bathroom at home because that's where he's always gone to the bathroom and that is where he SHOULD go. I'm reminded of the story Maria Montessori wrote about the toddler that had a fit because his mother's coat was on her arm...not her shoulders. The child's idea of order gives him security that we can't always understand.

2) Was the director just frustrated that time or is it a continuous problem? I love toddlers, but they are far from easy at times. Is it possible the teacher was just frustrated about that day and everything going on? PEople that work with this age group are saints. Add in all the administrative stuff directors deal with and it's more than most people can handle. We try not to show our frustration, but let's face it....we're working with Toddlers. Working for Toddlers and not getting frustrated is about as easy as working with Bush and not chuckling to his face when he talks. (Note: I love toddlers. I just say this with a little humor attached).

[ADirrim]

Oh, that is too bad. I really hope his next few days go better.

I'm completely agreeing with Matt here. Unfortunately, it just sounds like a tough, chaotic, day (filling in for someone else is always difficult- the children really benefit from routines and the continuous presence of people they feel comfortable with at this age) and it sounds like it made it particularly difficult for your son.

A few thoughts- when your child's regular guide returns, tell her (in detail) about the routine you are using at home (what you say if he tells you he doesn't want to try right then, does he sit to undress- most schools have a little bench for this, is he peeing sitting- I am assuming, etc) so that things can be as consistent as possible between school and home. If I child is having trouble, I often find it helpful to have the parent take the child into the classroom bathroom in the morning and kind of observe to see how they are having them do it (there can be all kinds of small differences, but the children get really frusterated when they are just learning and being told conflicting things). If your child's guide is going to be gone for an extended time, then I would have this conversation with the director and be candid that he felt sad about his first experience (be understanding about the fact that she had a hard day and she will probably not get defensive).

Also, as Matt said, children this age do not generalize too well. I would try to get him comfortable on your toilet at home (the adult one)- get a little stool and start with that. Then, you can work on public toilets. Your goal, of course, is that ultimately he can go on any toilet, so I would recommend stopping the practice of toting around his little potty and working on using others (if you act like it''s no big deal, he probably will too, but if you use the little potty exclusively for too long it can make it really hard to break that dependency later).

We have a lot of children who are just recently toilet trained. We handle accidents without making a big deal out of it; however, we don’t use the word “accident” for this, as you mentioned. Accidents are things like falling and getting hurt, toileting is not a big deal and toileting is within the child’s control. Using the word accident is vacuous- saying “It was just an accident” does not provide the child with useful feedback as to how they can master this skill (and can become an excuse). Instead, we have the child sit on the potty to see if there is more and involve the child in wiping themselves, putting their dirty clothing in a bag to be taken home, and cleaning up, but do not make it punishing in any way. The guide will make a note of the accident in her daily observations so that we can provide the child with more aptly timed reminders. I think that is pretty in line with most Montessori schools handling of toileting accidents. A great book on that is Diaper Free Before Three which is written by a pediatrician and mother of three who quotes Montessori trainer Judi Orion extensively.

[kittykat2481]

Thank you for your feedback! I should clarify that his guide, who is with him from 8-3 is not out of town, but the afterschool teacher who keeps him until I pick him up at 4:00. The director was filling in for the afterschool teacher. The director is about 6 months pregnant now, and I'm sure she was just frustrated in that moment. I did, however just send an email to his guide to get her feedback on the situation and hopefully brainstorm ways to help Corbin.

Regarding breaking the dependency on the little potty - I'd love to do this, but I'm not sure how. My husband and I fee like simply learning not to use the restroom in your pants, and to put it in the potty/toilet is a big task by itself, and maybe should be learned before we tackle the toilet issue. I don't want him to get discouraged by frequent misses just because he wasn't comfortable enough to go on the toilet. I should say too, that at home he will sit on the toilet, but rarely, if ever, does he actually go. He's just very tense on the toilet. We tried to use a seat reducer too, and that didn't seem to help either. He's very sensitive about his penis being touched, and inevitably that little splash guard would touch him, and he'd freak and want off the potty. I am open to any and all ideas of where to go from here. I have heard about that book before, but have not read it. I will have to check that out. Also, here is the email I sent his teacher:

Hey Ms. Kim,

I wanted to chat with you and I know how hard it is to get to your email sometimes. I will try to keep this slightly less than a novel, but I make no promises.

There was an incident yesterday that left Corbin a little upset, and me disappointed and confused, and it made me really question how Corbin's pottying is going at school vs. at home. When I picked him up yesterday I asked Shamain when the last time he had gone potty was, and she sort of huffed, "He just had an accident. He's done nothing but have accidents all day." Then she told me that he does not go potty in the toilet at school at all, and acted surprised when I told her that he does at home all the time. Then Corbin came over to me, hugged me and put his head on my shoulder. I decided to take Corbin into the restroom in your class to talk to him privately and try to encourage him to use the potty, but he didn't want to even try, got teary eyed and started asking to leave. In the car, we usually talk about his day, and usually he asks me if I'm happy and we discuss that we're all happy, etc. Yesterday I asked him if he was happy and his response was "No. Sad!"That continued to be his response for much of the rest of the afternoon.

So I'm really just trying to figure out what the situation is here. Obviously Corbin had a not so good pottying day, but I'm afraid that he may have picked up on some negative vibes about it, and was upset. After we left school yesterday, we made two stops on the way home, and then Corbin said "peepee poopoo!" We were not very close to home, so I drove as quickly as I could, fully expecting him not to make it in time, but when we got home he was still dry. He sat on his potty and almost immediately peed. He wants to be successful. He is capable of being successful. I don't know where the breakdown is happening between home and school though. When we were talking in your classroom yesterday, I asked him matter of factly (with no pressure) if he wanted to wear a diaper and he said "No diaper! Big boy pants!" So then where do we go from here? He went through more clothes yesterday in one day than he did all weekend at home and about town. I do not want him to just get used to peeing in his pants.

I know at home he prefers his little potty to the big toilet, and that may be part of the problem. We sort of ended up here because when he first became interested in pottying, he was only 15 months old, and between his sensory issues at the time, and his natural lack of balance due to his age, he was afraid of sitting on the big toilet - so we went with the little potty. Then we didn't follow through enough and he lost interest. This is the second time he has shown major interest in learning to use the potty. Shamain recommended that I try to make him use the big toilet at home, but Sam and I feel like one big new task to learn at a time is plenty. Once he is used to wearing underwear and having fewer misses, we can transition him to the toilet. I don't know how this translates to his pottying at school though. I realize that the way it is done in your class is to have all the children use the toilets.

Anyway, I will try to wrap this up. I guess what I'd really like to know is if he is having any success with the potty at school, if he seems like he has anxiety over it, how misses are handled, etc. Also, if you have any ideas on how to make Corbin more comfortable going potty at school, I'm all ears. It breaks my heart to think of him peeing on himself all day because of some unknown issue, when at home he is so proud of his success. He pulls his pants down, sits on the potty, pees, then stands up and says, "Me did it!" I want him to have that experience at school too. Not to mention, I'm sure it is equally frustrating for you with him having that many misses a day.

Feel free to just email me back, or you can call me any time at xxx-xxx-xxxx. Corbin loves you and has always responded well to your calm demeanor, and I'm sure that between you, me, and Sam we can figure something out to help him.

Hope to hear from you soon,
Kat

[ADirrim]

Originally Posted by kittykat2481

Regarding breaking the dependency on the little potty - I'd love to do this, but I'm not sure how. My husband and I fee like simply learning not to use the restroom in your pants, and to put it in the potty/toilet is a big task by itself, and maybe should be learned before we tackle the toilet issue. I don't want him to get discouraged by frequent misses just because he wasn't comfortable enough to go on the toilet. I should say too, that at home he will sit on the toilet, but rarely, if ever, does he actually go. He's just very tense on the toilet. We tried to use a seat reducer too, and that didn't seem to help either. He's very sensitive about his penis being touched, and inevitably that little splash guard would touch him, and he'd freak and want off the potty. I am open to any and all ideas of where to go from here.

I think I am misunderstanding something about the situation- if you don't expect/think he can use your regular toilet at home, are you thinking/expecting that he could at school? Are the toilets considerably different? I guess I was assuming that the school had a regular toilet (all of the ones I have worked at do). Did you have a conversation with the school about toilet training him? What did they say? Everywher I have worked, we would definately assist a child in learning to use the toilet, but it is with everyone's clear understanding that it is a regular toilet (and if they can/will be taught to use that at school, I don't understand why they wouldn't at home as well).

If I have understood you correctly and it is the case that he only uses the little potty at home (and appears tense and frightened on a regular one), but will only have access to a regular potty at school, I guess I am not clear what outcome you/the school/whoever decided to have him come in underwear were expecting. It really doesn't set him up to be successful.

You know your child best. There are some children who will get proficient in the small potty and then naturally transition to a larger one; in this case, it would seem to me that he would need to wear diapers at school until you think he is ready to do that. There are also children in whom that will build up a lot or resistance to changing later. I currently have, and have had, a lot of younger children who have learned to use the toilet just before joining out classroom community (including some 18 mo olds who were amazing- parents did elimination communication). In all of the cases I have seen, children do best using a real toilet. Particularly if that is what he is going to use at school, I would recommend being consistent and giving him a safe space in which to practice that at home (I am making the assumption that the school is using a regular looking toilet- is that correct?).

If you want to transition him to a regular toilet, my thoughts are:
1) Children see their parents use larger potties and so imitating that use comes pretty naturally (so long as there is a step stool with a safe way for them to access it). Personally, I wouldn't mess with splash guards (or any other apparatus)- every boy I have ever had started by learning to sit on a regular toilet and being told to "point it down." They really do learn very quickly. If he starts to pee out of the bowl, calmly ask him to stop, explain what happened (sometimes pointing at the accident helps so they can see what you are describing) and remind him again to "point it down."
Lots of kids are really tense at first about sitting on it (this can be lessened a lot by your attitude of calm confidence in them) but get over it really quickly. If he is already willing to sit on it, then you are in a great starting place. Next, identify the times you KNOW he needs to go and have him sit on it at those times (honestly, keeping a log of two days worth of toileting and accidents is really reliable- kids are that predictable!). If he doesn't go and wants up, allow him to get up and tell him that you will give him another reminder to try in five minutes. Once you meet with success (and he goes in it) things will go even more quickly! Kids can practically always dribble a little (even if they didn't really have to go), so you will know he has the idea (and knows what muscles to use) when you are able to ask him to try and you consistently get a dribble.
2) You are probably right that there will be some frequent misses (although, this happens in the beginning of learning any new skill). It seems to me that it would be preferable if those happen in the comfort of your home where you can deal with him calmly and patiently. Really, it's just like learning to walk- kids fall A LOT, but they don't get discouraged and give up. As long as the adults in his life handle it like they would a child who stumbles- calmly and compassionnately, they shouldn't be a big deal or very demoralizing.
3) One other thought- if you keep having problems at school, have the guide create a log of when they occur and what he is doing (that will give you a better understanding of the issues- some kids don't want to leave their work, some kids have too much trouble getting their clothes off, etc).

By the way- I think it is great that you have identified that he is in a sensitive period (and expressing interest in using the toilet) and that you are following through with it. Don't be concerned or anxious- it really is as easy as learning to walk. When they are ready, there will be some accidents and stumbles, but they will get it.

Good Luck!

[kittykat2481]

Yes, the potty at school is a regular toilet. In all of our conversations about pottying, his guide never mentioned anything about him not going on the big toilets at school. She just said she takes him potty every 45 minutes to an hour. Then when DS said he didn't want to wear diapers anymore, his guide said great, bring him in underwear. I honestly assumed this was one of those situations where they always do better for other people than they do for their parents. Basically, that he was resisting the toilet at home because he knew the little potty was available to him, and Mommy and Daddy would let him use it. I now realize that's not the case.

I spoke with his guide today and she could not condone the behavior of the director the other day, and she was very supportive of our efforts. DS had 2 misses today and both were while outside playing. He also had success on the regular toilet at home tonight! Yay! So for now we will keep going on as planned, knowing that I have the full support of his guide, and hopefully he will come around to the toilets soon.

On a side not, when his guide spoke with the director about it, the director said "It's just so much work in the afternoon!" (he's only in there for an hour in the afternoon anyway) to which his guide responded "well, I'm here this afternoon so you don't have to worry about it." I think the director is just overwhelmed with being 6 months pregnant and having an 11 month old of her own, but it's so nice to know his wonderful guide is backing me up on this one. And we can't wait for his regular afterschool teacher to return!

Thanks again for everyone's feedback!

[lnitti]

My dd is 26 months. The toddler program at our school runs from approx. 9-12. In the toddler program there are no diapers or waterproof bottoms (unless necessary for going outside for kids who are not real good with toileting yet.

They all wear cotton training pants (or undies if they are potty trained).

In the wraparound program in the afternoon, it is a mixed age group - toddlers and primary kids, and for this reason, the kids who are not on their way with potty training do wear pull ups or waterproof training pants.

Is it possible for him to wear regular undies in the classroom, but maybe some padded training pants or something in the afternoon care to help minimize the mess with a miss until he is more reliable? It is a lot of work with a mixed group like that to have a lot of accidents.

Also, in the classroom, there are regular toilets, but very small child size - even lower to the ground than in the primary room, so that the kids can get on an off on their own. In the WRAP, they are taken to an adult size bathroom. Are your school's toilets child size or adult size?

My dd is 99% potty trained (probably about 3-5 accidents a week). She wears undies 100% of the day time at home, school, and WRAP, and she wears bright bots training pants at night. At home she almost always uses her little potty. It is easier for her because her feet can reach the floor. On the regular toilet, we use a stool, but her feet still can't reach it. So at home she doesn't use the regular toilet much. When we use public restrooms, she does use a regular toilet. In fact, I don't know if she has ever pooped in a regular toilet (maybe at school, but I don't know). When her feet can reach the stool and when I am not so worried about her falling while getting up to the regular toilet, I may try to transition her away from her potty.

What does your son use in public? Will he use a regular toilet then? Maybe you could use the public experience with a regular toilet to help with toileting at school if you still want to use the potty at home.

[kittykat2481]

Initti - thank you so much for your response. He still can't reach the stool from the regular toilet at home too, which is why I think he prefers the potty still. In public he's very leary of the toilets still, so we keep a potty in our trunk for out and about. The toilets at school are adult sized, but they say that are planning to get child sized toilets. I think that will help a lot!

I love your school's policy of no waterproof pants. His teacher has been really supportive, but I can't help but feel like I'm putting this burden on them. He's had about 1-2 accidents a day at school lately and is waking up from nap dry. I guess we're getting there. It will just take some time. It's only been a week so far.