have to supplement with formula :(

[joyakshi]

I have so much nipple pain, and have had for all 4 weeks, and recently got over mastitis, and now have red, burning/stinging/sore nipples all the time. We have latch problems.
I am pumping, but I can't keep up with baby's appetite. She takes all 2 oz I pump from one sitting and still wants both breasts that are SO sore.
I am using all purpose nipple ointment from the m/w RX.
So I've resorted to buying some formula until I can get my milk supply up pumping to keep her happy.
She wants to eat every hour, or at least she cluster feeds a lot.
So I am pumping and will breastfeed as I can tolerate it, but I feel terrible having to give formula.

[Mizelenius]

I am DDC crashing, but here are a few things:
(1) With my 1st DD, I had BAD (and I mean horrible, horrible) pain while nursing, and it lasted (but got better progressively by) 8 weeks. I had an LC that somewhat helped, but LLL told me it was probably a small-mouth issue. I think LLL was right. It was just a matter of time.
(2) My 2nd didn't cause nearly as much pain, but she did not gain weight and nursed constantly. It turned out she had a weak suck/poor milk transfer. I got cranial sacral therapy done on her (and nursed, pumped, and gave formula a few times at the beginning when pumping didn't keep up-- my supply had decreased because she didn't nurse well). It was a nightmare, but she had it down perfectly by 6 weeks, and no problems after that.

My questions are:
(1) How long does the pain last? Is it just for the initial latch on (normal) or throughout? (Mine was throughout-- not normal.)
(2) How is your DD's weight gain?

These videos helped me tremendously:
http://www.breastfeeding.com/helpme/...tching_on.html

If you haven't had pro help, I highly recommend it. I did spent a lot of $ on IBCLCs (esp with DD2) but still WAY cheaper than formula.

ETA: My 3rd DD was sooooooo easy to nurse. Some babies really just "get it" more than others. None of my births involved meds, so I can't blame it on that, either.

[beatgenxer]

Originally Posted by joyakshi

I have so much nipple pain, and have had for all 4 weeks, and recently got over mastitis, and now have red, burning/stinging/sore nipples all the time. We have latch problems.
I am pumping, but I can't keep up with baby's appetite. She takes all 2 oz I pump from one sitting and still wants both breasts that are SO sore.
I am using all purpose nipple ointment from the m/w RX.
So I've resorted to buying some formula until I can get my milk supply up pumping to keep her happy.
She wants to eat every hour, or at least she cluster feeds a lot.
So I am pumping and will breastfeed as I can tolerate it, but I feel terrible having to give formula.

OMG! this could be my exact experience the past two and a half weeks except mastitis I've had thrush issues. I'm totally feeling your pain joyakshi. It's 4am right now and even though I know breast is best and my LO doesn't get satisfied from anything else but breastfeeding, I'm sitting here after feeding for an hour contemplating going to the 24 hour grocery store three blocks away to get formula before the next feeding. I hate not being able to cuddle LO (or my DH for that matter) because it hurts too much to hold anything close to my chest. And I cried during the last feeding because it hurt so bad yet LO grabbed my finger and I knew he felt so safe and warm and loved. I'm crying even now just thinking about it.

I've had three different lactation consultants and nurses try to help me. My pain is intense at the beginning, usually goes away during feeding unless he starts to fall asleep and slips from the latch, and it's painful afterwards sometimes for hours until the next feed on that side.

Don't know if it helps to know someone else is going through the same thing as you, but at least we can vent here and maybe get some new advice that will help us. Hang in there mama!

[Serenyd]

MY dS1 was tongue-tied and the pain was so intense it radiated down my arm. he had a poor suck and would compensate by clamping down w/ his gums. Then I started getting burning, shooting pains during letdown. It was all over with by 3 months though. In my experience it all gets easier by then (bf'ing-wise). Hang in there.

[changingseasons]

(also DDC crashing)

Have you had her checked for tongue-tie? I see you're in Seattle- Dr. MaryAnn O'Hara is a local doctor who specializes in tongue-tie. She works at a breastfeeding clinic, and I think it would be worth it to give her a shout! PM me if you want her contact info.

[pjs]

Also try block-feeding- feeding from the same breast two feedings in a row. LO might not be getting enough hindmilk to fill up. Also, try compressing your breast during your feeding so LO is encouraged to keep feeding because the milk keeps flowing. Make sure LO's lips aren't getting sucked in-that they protrude outward and can be seen while nursing. It's also important that they get more than the nipple, use your fingers to make a nipple "sandwich" while latching on, let go once they start the suck, suck, gulp. Kudos to you for sticking with it despite your pain and all the other obstacles. You can do it!

[leigh09]

just sending you lots of encouragement to stick with it. nursing was very hard with my first baby, more than i imagined it would be. what helps me a lot when my nipples hurt is to simply put breastmilk on them and let them air dry.

don't feel guilty about supplementing with formula. i have had to also before due to milk supply problems. it is better to make sure your baby has enough to eat while you work through your nursing problems than to either give up nursing completely or to have a hungry and unhappy baby.

[joyakshi]

thanks for your encouragement and support.

Beatgen- I had a similar experience last night after a painful feeding. went to walgreens for formula, crying from the pain and from the sense of failure.
but I haven't used it yet. I got a good step by step positioning and latch description from Jack Newman and I realized I had forgotten a few steps. I am holding her head better and getting more support under her so her position is better. I still have soreness, but it isn't burning/stinging today.
Her lips do get sucked in. I have to figure out how to fix that. I can't seem to use my finger to pull her jaw down and lips out. she just won't move her jaw.

Mizel - the pain was constant all day. but today it's better. the nipple ointment helps I think. Baby is gaining great. I notice I'm not getting much milk when pumping the last 2 days. maybe b/c she's eating so frequently? or I need to boost my supply?

I never heard of tongue-tie. I looked it up and it doesn't seem like she has it. She can stick out her tongue past her gums. I'll keep in in mind if things don't get better.

I did feed only from the right when I had mastitis on the left. my milk supply seems less on the left now.

[Mizelenius]

RE: her jaw . . .push her chin down slightly with your finger. Slip your fingers inside her lips to make them go out. Also, do NOT be afraid to unlatch, unlatch, unlatch until she latches correctly. Do you know how to "break the seal" when nursing? For the initial latch-on, make sure she opens WIDE. You can do the chin thing when you are getting her to latch on, too.

I am so, so, SO glad to hear the pain is improving, and also that you found some missing steps. Really-- you are doing so well. I am guessing that, within a few weeks, you won't even have to think about this. And don't worry about the left side . . .your supply will rebuild. Just start off with the left side as much as possible for a bit.

Also, if the baby is gaining really well, then (this is going to sound crazy, given how much pain you are in) this isn't a major issue. With DD1, the pain was so horrible (and like you, it was constant, not just the initial latch on) and I thought I had a severe problem. Then, with DD2, who looked like she had a textbook latch from the OUTSIDE but had serious weight problems (the weak suck problem), I realized that was much, much more serious.

You are not failing. Your baby IS gaining well and you ARE improving-- very quickly. No one really tells us how hard BF can be, and for babies like my 3rd that "get it" right away, some people have no idea! In the long run, though, it will be so, so easy. Just give it a few more weeks, and you will see!

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by joyakshi

I never heard of tongue-tie. I looked it up and it doesn't seem like she has it. She can stick out her tongue past her gums. I'll keep in in mind if things don't get better.

There are different types of tongue-tie. An anterior tie is usually more visible to parents/doctors; that's the one where the baby can't stick their tongue out very far, because it's "tied" under the front of the tongue. A posterior tie is very hard to diagnose without a skilled professional. The tongue is "tied" under the back portion, so it can't lift up correctly (rather than forward.) This is often a cause of breastfeeding problems because they can't get the milk properly. Often, you will hear a clicking sound when they feed.

Sounds like things are already on the right track, but I wanted you to have this info just in case things don't get better.

[Kedrosami]

I am having BFing problems too--painful soreness and tenderness in my breasts ALL the time (not just the nipples but the whole breast.) It is seriously painful to the touch. I'm pretty certain I don't have thrush or mastitis or any kind of infection. I know that some of the time the problem is painful engorgement--hot compresses help a lot with that. I've tried block feeding but usually when I do that the other breast gets so hot/painful/engorged.

I think a lot of my problem is difficulty with the latch--he just won't open his mouth big enough--it is so aggravating! I try pulling his chin down and it never really seems to help. I'm going to check out that link about latching--thanks Mizelenius.

I am not really sure why I'm in so much pain, and right before I clicked on this thread I was just googling breastfeeding stuff to try and figure it out. I am super-determined and haven't resorted to formula (yet)--the good news is baby seems to be getting plenty of good milk because he's growing.

I'm just so frustrated! I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one going through this kind of thing, and it sounds like if I stick with it most problems will resolve themselves after another couple months.

[Pookietooth]

Giving her a bottle will make your supply go down and make her latch even worse, since the mouth motions necessary to get milk from a bottle are totally different. Are there any local specialists you can see? I'm on the Eastside but I do have a name in Seattle: Ginna Wall
Oh, and see the last page in this thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...004254&page=17
http://lactspeak.com/speakers/CatherineWatson%20Genna/

[Kmama2]

THose of you having issues- You have lots of good advice so far
Just wanted to say that I had super super painful nipples/ breasts for a good 6+ weeks with my first. I had a LLL person check my latch and dd never had any latch issues. Sometimes I think it just takes time for your breasts to get used to all that sucking. After feedings rub some breastmilk into your nipples and allow some air drying time- It can help toughen your nipples up and keep them soft. Most of all- stick with it- It will get easier.
This time ( my second ) they only hurt for about 2 weeks I think.

[beatgenxer]

I've been working with my MWs (one is a LC) every day for a few days now. We think we've got the problems narrowed down to my LO is not thrusting his tongue down and out enough which is compressing the nipple, since no matter what position we try, my nipple always comes out misshapen. The other problem is I have vasoconstriction/blanching which is making them painful afterwards when I'm trying to let them airdry. So we have to teach my LO to stick his tongue out and down by getting him to mimic us.

So this, along with him healing from his circ (the oldschool Jewish thing!), has made this another tough week for us. I'm hoping eventually we'll have a good week where I can cuddle him pain-free.

Joyakshi- I'm glad things are getting better for you and you were able to figure out some things you may have forgotten. woo-hoo!

[Pookietooth]

More info about Ginna:
Ginna Wall (not sure if they are open to anyone or just those who birth there, but she is really amazing if you can talk with her at all)
University of Washington Medical Center Lactation Services
Contacts: Ginna Wall, MN, IBCLC, Lactation Services Coordinator
University of Washington Medical Center
Mailbox 356079
Main Phone: [phone]
Lactation Phone: [phone]
Voicemail: 206-598-6368
FAX: [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Services: Inpatient hours of Lactation Coverage 9:00-9:00 Monday-Friday, weekends and holidays 9:00-3:00

In person breastfeeding appointments: available to UWMC and UW Medicine Neighborhood Clinic patients. Fees: $76-200/session based on length; hospital bills insurance. Services also open to all Maternity Support Services clients.

[changingseasons]

Another thing to consider- at Valley Medical Center in Renton (where I had DD), they have parent support classes every week that are run by one of the hospital's lactation consultants. They are free, and open to everyone (not just people who birthed there.) Denise runs the groups, and she's really nice. She would be able to sit down with you and give you some pointers. Here's the link for class times: http://www.valleymed.org/Health_Info/Classes.htm (it's toward the bottom of the page.)

I don't know if other hospitals have anything like this, but it's a great free resource!

[joyakshi]

I kind of think there is some truth that nipples just get used to things over time. I feel like this might be happening with mine after 5 weeks now. Also, my stress level and amount of rest I get seems to affect my nipple pain. The all purpose nipple ointment helps a lot too.

I read also that touching the LOWER lip and chin gets baby to open wider than touching the upper lip, and I tested this and it's true for my baby. If I pull down on her chin before she opens, she opens wider and I can latch her better.

Also, I've started having her be skin to skin facing my chest and let her root her way on to latching herself, and this works better than when I try to control the latch. Her position is better and she seems happier and the latch is bigger.

Thanks again for all the info, and good luck for anyone still having pain.

[MeredithK]

I'm so glad that to hear that things are getting better for you. I'm dealing with a lot of problems with one of my breasts and know how painful and frustrating it can be. I hope that things continue to get better for you.

[ZoraP]

I second the skin-to-skin contact and letting baby latch. It really worked for my dd3, who had some milk transfer issues and a tight latch. It also did wonders to just cheer me up in general, holding her silky little body. We're doing great now but still enjoy skin-to-skin.

[Aufilia]

joy, where in the Seattle area are you at? As long as people are mentioning support groups, there's a good one at Evergreen Hospital in Kirkland -- the facilitators are all LCs and nearly everyone there is breastfeeding. The 0-3 month parent/baby group is free and is on Tuesday or Wednesday 12:30-2:30. DS and I have been going on Tuesday to Wendy's group.