4yo being bullied at school - should we switch?

[CatNamedSue]

Hi everyone,

My daughter, Elle, is four, and isn't settling into her new school very well. We've just moved to the UK from the US this summer, which is already a big change in her life. She had previously attended a daycare/preschool back in the states. It was the only school environment she had known, and she attended for two years. We never had any issues - not only was I happy with the staff and teachers, but she also got along really well with the other kids and was considered to be a happy, well-adjusted, social child.

Now she just isn't fitting in as well at all. She's been at her new school for over two months now, and her happy-go-lucky personality is being met with cynicism. I know this sounds strange, but she was actually made fun of right in front of me before school for being so excited to see one of her friends! She's only four! I'm so frustrated. The worst part is that this "friend" that she was so excited to see is incredibly mean, always telling my daughter that she won't play with her today. I respect kids' rights to choose whom they'll play with, but this morning when I dropped her off this particular little girl blocked our way into the building, looked straight at Elle, and said she was playing with another kid in the class today. She's going out of her way to be cruel!

It's just heartbreaking for me to watch this happen. Elle doesn't understand why the other kids are being mean to her, or why anyone wouldn't want to play. I don't know if this is just a normal stage for her to go through, if she's just socially naive (this was never a problem at her old school), or what. Today, even before the other little girl confronted her, Elle confided that she didn't want to "be here", and that she wanted to go to a different school. Worse, her behavior at home over the last couple of weeks has changed - she went from being happy and cooperative to crying at the drop of a hat, whining, and acting generally depressed. I can't stand watching her go through this!

Sorry this is so long... I just don't know what to do. Is this normal? Should I talk to the teacher? She attends a Waldorf school, by the way - I have a feeling the mixed ages of the kindergarten class might have something to do with it. (I also have a feeling that talking to the teacher might not help.) Alternately, I could enroll her at the nearest public school, but I'm worried that another major change in her life would do more harm than good.

Thanks in advance for any advice - it's really appreciated.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by CatNamedSue

Should I talk to the teacher? She attends a Waldorf school, by the way - I have a feeling the mixed ages of the kindergarten class might have something to do with it. (I also have a feeling that talking to the teacher might not help.) Alternately, I could enroll her at the nearest public school, but I'm worried that another major change in her life would do more harm than good.

Oh, this is so awful! I have just been through a similar situation myself. It is so hard to see your child be so unhappy.

I think you should talk to the teacher, tell her / him that you have observed other children being mean and excluding your daughter, and that she isn't happy. Ask them what their thoughts are, what they usually do in such cases, and say that you would like a concrete plan for dealing with this so that your daughter can see that this is taken seriously. Tell them you would like a daily report on how your daughter's day has been, who she has played with, if there has been any difficult situations etc.

As for the teacher laughing at your daughter's enthusiasm, that is just off. I don't know how I would bring that one up, but maybe you see a chance to air the subject of possible cultural differences or something? Maybe it is an English "stiff upper lip" thing or something, and that they just need to be made a little aware of it. But if it is a habit of the teachers' to mock the children, that is a sign that they have an attitude to children that is not compatible with their job.

If you feel that the response to your questions is unsatisfactory and you see no effort on the teachers' side, I wouldn't hesitate to take her out and put her in a different school. At such a young age and with teachers who take an interest in making the group of children work, she will make new friends quickly.

I had this experience with my youngest son. He was being excluded by a group of boys and it was affecting his whole self-esteem. He became very shy and quiet and started to avoid other children. The teachers refused to address the situation, and I took him out. (It was not a Waldorf kindergarten, btw.) Now after three weeks in his new kindergarten he runs around with his new friends, he talks louder and is much more outgoing, and happy!

I don't know if the mixed ages should lead to problems like this, since all kindergartens (before six years old) in my country (Norway) have mixed age classes. I know that some Waldorf schools have a philosophy of not interfering with the children's interaction, the children are left to sort things out for themselves. I would ask the teachers at your daughter's school what their practice is in this regard. If their view is that your daughter simply needs to be given time to find her place in the group herself, I would take her out immediately. Children need help with these things, in my opinion.

Good luck, I hope you find a good solution for your daughter so that she will be happy again soon!

[SomedayMom]

I was a bullied kid (in the same sort of way...verbally, emotionally, not physically). I do wish my parents had taken me out of that school, no matter how hard it would have been on me, when the teachers failed to protect me.

I think it can be stressful to switch schools and I really never wanted to do it at the time.

The first thing I would do is talk with the teacher and then anyone above her if that doesn't work. If she is going to be in this school long term I would definitely want to know that their response to bullying was swift and effective. It should be the bully that is punished for this, not your child...but in reality, if they can't help you protect your child, I would move her to a place that will.

FWIW, I don't think the mixed ages create bullying. I'm not familiar with Waldorf, but my children are in a Montessori school and the mixed ages seems to foster a community, and the bigger kids feel a connection to the younger kids and want to help them when they can. I think that done well, the mixed ages should actually decrease the bullying behavior.

[CatNamedSue]

Thanks so much for your replies. I was always made fun of in school, too, because I was so shy and didn't stand up for myself, so I was really thrilled that Elle is a gregarious, spunky child. But it really upsets her to be excluded, and she asks every day if she can go to a new school. We would pull her eventually anyway, because we can see now that it's not going to meet her needs in the coming years (she's frustrated that she's no longer learning how to read and write, like she was at her last school), so really it's a matter of timing. I was hoping we'd finish out the year.

I know I should talk to the teacher, but she and I both see this happening and not a word is said to the other child. The other thing is that at a Waldorf school such as this, I'm worried that Elle will get "punished" for her mom being an interloper, so to speak. It's a really tight-knit community.

Sigh. I wish I could protect her from every hurtful word, but I know that that's not possible. But still... it just seems so early for kids to be so mean! I was hoping a few more years would go by before we had to deal with this sort of thing. :-(

[annamama]

I'm in the UK. My 4 yr old ds started school this year - prior to that he was in a Nursery attached to his school.
There is no way that that kind of bullying/exclusion/unkindness would have been tolerated at his nursery or school. If you're contemplating removing her, I would think that is the right thing to do. I'm so taken aback that her teacher is doing nothing about it! I really feel for both you and your daughter.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

The other thing is that at a Waldorf school such as this, I'm worried that Elle will get "punished" for her mom being an interloper, so to speak.

This would be the breaking point for me. If the teacher is not going to protect your child and you are worried that advocating for your daughter will result in her being in for a tougher time, it's time to leave.

What is the point of finishing out the year in a place where your daughter is not emotionally safe? I pulled my son out of school for bullying and my only regret is that I did not do it sooner.

[Heavenly]

I have heard time and time again that Waldorf schools are horrible for bullying. Don't let your "ideals" of what type of school you want her in be more important than what is actually best for your child. IMO, find another school.

[DashsMama]

Disclaimer: I don't want to make this an anti-Waldorf thread. I am not anti-Waldorf. I have been happily involved with Waldorf Ed. for over 8 years. I have taken Waldorf teacher training classes myself, and my children have attended Waldorf schools. They would still be attending Waldorf schools if our financial situation was better.

That being said, Waldorf schools are notoriously bad at dealing with bullying! From personal experience I can tell you that Waldorf early childhood teachers are trained not to speak directly to children about problems in the classroom. They are taught that direct intervention will not help solve the problem because young children are not at a developmental stage to fully understand direct verbal communication. Instead, modeling and Healing Stories are used to address social problems like bullying, this is often called teaching to the heart rather than to the head. Also be aware that many Waldorf teachers believe that there are karmic connections between the children in their classroom (and between them and their students too). The teacher may allow bullying to continue thinking it stems from unresolved past life issues that need to be resolved in this life. Every Waldorf school and teacher are different. You child's teacher may or may not believe these things, but it is basic Anthroposophical belief that is taught during Waldorf teacher training (at least it was taught to me, and to others I have spoken to as well).

You definitely have a right to talk to your daughter's teacher, tell her what you have witnessed, tell her how your daughter is responding, and find out what her opinions/recommendations are. I would not expect her to lay out a plan of action, however. That is not how any Waldorf school I've been involved with has worked. Your child's teacher is more likely to meditate on the problem and ask the children's guardian angels to give her guidance. If you are not comfortable with the teacher's response to your concerns, then I would definitely find a new school for your daughter. It is very unlikely that you will be able to change the dynamics at the school yourself.

[CatNamedSue]

I spoke to Elle's teacher today when I went to pick her up from school. She wanted to talk to me, as well - her opening line was, "I don't think Elle's adjusting very well." But she wasn't aware of the bullying; in fact, she comforted me somewhat by being very sympathetic and told me to tell Elle that if anything like that ever happened again, to come tell her. She said such behavior from the other children was completely unacceptable. But then she told me her concerns: that Elle is no longer sitting still for circle time and won't stay at the table during lunch. This is a new issue, so I'm still exploring the myriad of possible causes behind it, including the enormous amount of change she's just been through, not feeling included at school, perhaps being under-stimulated by the curriculum. I'm also going to call her old teacher back in the states and see if this was ever an issue (if it was, I never heard about it. Her teachers only ever gave me glowing reports about her behavior.).

At any rate, we're going to keep exploring this further. While I don't want to switch schools if we can help it for the sake of stability, I won't hesitate to do so if our problems aren't resolved.

Thanks again for all of your support - I joined this board just for this reason, and it's been a wonderful welcome.

[SunshineJ]

Honestly I'd pull her out in a New York minute. She's gone through a huge move and is now in an environment where she is miserable and being picked on, and it's having a direct and noticable effect on her personality. I'd pull her out now before too much damage is done. Not every school and situation is going to be a "good fit" no matter how much we may want it to be, and 4 yrs old is way too young to try to learn how to suck it up and work with it imo.

[ecoteat]

We're dealing with a similar situation. DD is 3 and is at a home based Waldorf-inspired preschool. One girl was bullying her and it was getting pretty worrysome. But the teacher has been very responsive and is working hard with the kids to help them be kind to each other and to prevent control issues that were happening between the kids. I know some people believe that young kids will work out their own social development, but I only agree with that to a point. I think kids sometimes need to be explicitly taught how to respond to certain situations. Be certain that your dd's teacher is going to protect and support her if you decide to keep her there.

[MCR]

Maybe a change to the public school if a talk with the teacher doesn't help would be in order.
From having Ds in the UK public schools and then I have friends who still have little ones in school there, bullying and the kind of mean talk your Dd is experiencing is not tolerated at all.
I hope you can find some way to help the situation, after such a big move it must be so hard to see this sort of thing happening. But as a mother of three, no way would I have stood by when a kid blocked the doorway and was mean, on my first child yes, but not now.
Roll play some ways to answer back this little bully, I did it with Ds#2 who was feeling pushed about in K.
Now I have the opposite problem and a 4 year old Dd in preK who is a bit bossy and we are doing the roll play in to get her to control her impulses and be nice and gentle with other kids, instead of riding roughshod all over the class.

[terrabella]

I would pull mine out. Before now. But I tend to react a bit ferociously to this sort of thing. Poor sweetie. I hope he gets settled soon!

[eepster]

I'd switch now just for the academics.

Since she misses academics and you will be switching her, it's better to do it now while she is still up to doing what the other public school kids are doing. If you put it off a whole year she might fall behind, and she will have a harder time with the switch b/c she will be catching up.

The unhappiness just solidifies the issue for me.

[Emmeline II]

I'd pull her. Having been bullied I don't see the logic in keeping a bullied child in the situation for "stability." Really, I would have loved the "upheaval" of NOT being bullied daily.

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by CatNamedSue

Thanks so much for your replies. I was always made fun of in school, too, because I was so shy and didn't stand up for myself, so I was really thrilled that Elle is a gregarious, spunky child. But it really upsets her to be excluded, and she asks every day if she can go to a new school. We would pull her eventually anyway, because we can see now that it's not going to meet her needs in the coming years (she's frustrated that she's no longer learning how to read and write, like she was at her last school), so really it's a matter of timing. I was hoping we'd finish out the year.

Asking every day to go to a new school is a clear sign she is very unhappy and under stress. It is VERY emotionally stressful to be teased and bullied every day. I would not sit still for circle time or stay at the table for lunch if I had no friends to sit with or eat with and people said mean things to me. I would want to avoid these huge stressors. Plus you write she is crying at the drop of a hat and depressed. She is telling you CLEARLY both in words and actions that she is horrible; so WHY would you leave her there for the rest of the year? WHY?

Originally Posted by CatNamedSue

I know I should talk to the teacher, but she and I both see this happening and not a word is said to the other child. The other thing is that at a Waldorf school such as this, I'm worried that Elle will get "punished" for her mom being an interloper, so to speak. It's a really tight-knit community.

Sigh. I wish I could protect her from every hurtful word, but I know that that's not possible. But still... it just seems so early for kids to be so mean! I was hoping a few more years would go by before we had to deal with this sort of thing. :-(

Originally Posted by CatNamedSue

I spoke to Elle's teacher today when I went to pick her up from school. She wanted to talk to me, as well - her opening line was, "I don't think Elle's adjusting very well." But she wasn't aware of the bullying; in fact, she comforted me somewhat by being very sympathetic and told me to tell Elle that if anything like that ever happened again, to come tell her. She said such behavior from the other children was completely unacceptable. But then she told me her concerns: that Elle is no longer sitting still for circle time and won't stay at the table during lunch. This is a new issue, so I'm still exploring the myriad of possible causes behind it, including the enormous amount of change she's just been through, not feeling included at school, perhaps being under-stimulated by the curriculum. I'm also going to call her old teacher back in the states and see if this was ever an issue (if it was, I never heard about it. Her teachers only ever gave me glowing reports about her behavior.).

At any rate, we're going to keep exploring this further. While I don't want to switch schools if we can help it for the sake of stability, I won't hesitate to do so if our problems aren't resolved.

Thanks again for all of your support - I joined this board just for this reason, and it's been a wonderful welcome.

In all honesty, I think your personality is preventing you from being a reasonable, clear, confident advocate for your daughter. Is it possible that no one stood up for you when you were a child being bullied, so you have not learned how to do this for your daughter? I think you need to develop a thicker, more confident skin. You are being way to passive, and that doesn't help your daughter when she really needs you.

You said you did not want to talk to the teacher, then that the teacher must know this was happening and wouldn't do anything. Then it turns out the teacher approaches you and you two discuss it and the teacher does not know about the bullying at all and says herself it is unacceptable and has a game plan worked out - that your DD should come to her right away so she can help work it out. This is very positive. Hurray. I think given this, I would see if this teacher will keep an eye on it and the situation improves. However, I would say to you that in the future,
1. instead of thinking your daughters issues are not important enough to advocate for, that you will try your hardest to confront the issue (Hello teacher, I see this and this happening and it is not acceptable; what can we do about it?)
2. instead of assuming you know what others think, and assuming how they will react, you should discuss with them right away. (the teacher did not see this was happening and did not ignore the issue at all!)

I hope this was not too harsh. It is only to get you to think about your advocacy. FWIW, I was bullied in school (after a long distance move) for 5 horrid years before my parents pulled me. Their head was in the sand, I was ashamed and horribly stressed. Best thing that happened to me was a change of schools to give me a fresh start. I now have a DS and a DD, and I have learned to advocate for them, because I am their mother and someone needs to do it, and that someone is me! It's HARD to do, really hard, in the beginning. But if you take small steps, once you've done it 2 or 3 times it gets easier and better.

[momo7]

I feel so bad for your little girl.....her situation is so sad. As a parent I could never make my child go to a school where she was being bullied or belittled (this is exactly why I homeschool my children). Think about this: She spends more time at school under the influence of people who hurt and demean her than she does with you ....how exactly does this help or inrich her charachter?

I just don't understand why you are thinking twice about this......

[aniT]

I would pull my child and put her in another school. She isn't happy, she isn't fitting in.. what is the point of making her stick it out til the end of the year? In the end.. I think this will do more damage than good.

Trust me... I felt the same way when my daughter was in 1st grade.. but the minute the principal told me that I needed to learn the difference between reality and what DD says I pulled her in a hot second. This conversation took place on Wed and by Mon. she was in a new school. This was a child who went from being in trouble all the time in K and 1st grade (1st was much worse than K) to NEVER BEING IN TROUBLE AGAIN! She is a Junior in high school now. I see the problem was with the school and not my DD.