Is 2.5 too little to expect help clearing table? - Page 2

[DevaMajka]

I think 2.5 is too young to *insist* that they do it. I don't think it's too young to let them know you'd like help, though.

Originally Posted by bstandlee

Thanks everybody. Your responses really helped crystallize my thinking. The power struggle is ridiculous. He loves to help with lots of other things around the house (cooking, pouring, scooping, mixing, throwing away garbage, etc.). That's why I was so surprised when he responded the way he did (we didn't approach it as if it were an ultimatum: clear this or else!). But somehow he lost the enthusiasm for helping and that is CLEARLY not what we are trying to teach him!

If he's helping with other stuff, I'd focus on that. I like things to be more of a "helping each other out" than "everyone does their own chores" kwim?
I've always told ds how much better it makes my life when he helps: "it goes so much faster when you help!" Iow, telling him how his actions affect me.
For clearing off the table, I'd make it totally voluntary for the time being (to clear the power struggle), then work on finding a way to make it "fun" for him.

If it helps any, I didn't insist that my ds help with anything when he was that young (though I did request his help), and now he's generally more than happy to help with tasks I ask him to do. His "job" is to take in the dishes from the living room, and he never complains about doing it. I also ask for help for various things I'm doing- sometimes he doesn't want to (which is usually fine with me), but most of the time he's happy to help.

Imo, punishment at this age (any age, really, but especially this young) will not accomplish what you are hoping it will accomplish. At best, it will make kids "behave" for selfish reasons. ("I'll clear the table so I don't get punished." vs. "I'll clear the table because it's helpful.") Often times, it doesn't even do that very well- it just causes conflict and makes things worse overall.

[Llyra]

I don't think it's too young at all. My twins are that age, and I expect them to take at least one item to the sink after a meal-- their cup, their plate, or something. Often they willingly carry more than that, but I insist on that one item. When they won't do it, I do insist-- but I try to do it not with "punishments" or with lots of words. I think that just sets the whole thing up to be a struggle. I handle it like I'll handle a child who doesn't want poopy pants changed, or doesn't want to go in the carseat. I just non-verbally cause it to happen.

I just place the item in the child's hand, and carry the child and the item to the sink, and then take the child's hand and guide him/her into putting the item where I want it. Then I thank them for helping and send them on their way. After two or three repetitions of this, they worked out that trying to refuse was pointless, but that trying to start a struggle about it was also pointless.

[heartmama]

There is no age when I think it's a good idea to keep approaching an issue in a way that results in a power struggle. Even with older kids, chores should not be a 'power struggle'. If you are constantly faced with tears and tantrums, then I would evaluate what is going on and make changes

[cappuccinosmom]

Not too young to help at all. But it sounds like you need to do something different because of the power struggle.

I just place the item in the child's hand, and carry the child and the item to the sink, and then take the child's hand and guide him/her into putting the item where I want it. Then I thank them for helping and send them on their way. After two or three repetitions of this, they worked out that trying to refuse was pointless, but that trying to start a struggle about it was also pointless.

I don't know if this is GD?? (I still haven't figured out what it is, except not spanking) but it's something I might try if my child wouldn't walk to the kitchen on his own power. To make it routine and normal.

My youngest is about the same age. I don't *make* him take his dishes every time, but I do often hand him a (nonbreakable) cup and say "Please go throw this in the sink" He *loves* to obey that literally.

Maybe he could have a different "job", too. My dad was telling us that the favorite post-supper chore in his family was gathering up the "sunbeams", which were any clean and unused silverware.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by heartmama

There is no age when I think it's a good idea to keep approaching an issue in a way that results in a power struggle. Even with older kids, chores should not be a 'power struggle'. If you are constantly faced with tears and tantrums, then I would evaluate what is going on and make changes

Exactly!

[GradysMom]

different thought here. our 3 yo ds helps set the table. as a matter of fact there are probably a number of things that could be done instead of dish carrying. Can you let your lo "win" that he chooses not to move dishes after dinner and ask him what he might want to do to help - something he chooses or invents might inspire the helping thing and then the dish carrying rule can be reinvented a few months down the line.

fun, helpful things could be - dumping leftover glasses of water into poted plants. throw napkins in laundry/trash. give the cook hugs and extra kisses. setting the table. picking color of plates/ napkins/tablecloth.

i think it is very valid to introduce the idea that as a family member imput is needed from him into the system.... just try to flex what that imput will be.

clearing the table would never work for us because ds takes forever to finish eating and that is our 45 min battle.

[graceomalley]

Originally Posted by Llyra

I just place the item in the child's hand, and carry the child and the item to the sink, and then take the child's hand and guide him/her into putting the item where I want it. Then I thank them for helping and send them on their way. After two or three repetitions of this, they worked out that trying to refuse was pointless, but that trying to start a struggle about it was also pointless.

This is what I was going to suggest. good luck!

[Llyra]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

I don't know if this is GD?? (I still haven't figured out what it is, except not spanking) but it's something I might try if my child wouldn't walk to the kitchen on his own power. To make it routine and normal.

I think you'll find there as many definitions of GD as there are parents. But what I've found is that in our house we all get along much better when I lay down some expectations and enforce them consistently. I am not a believer in consensual living, for sure. I would definitely call my parenting gentle, though. And this is a tactic that's worked well for us, especially with the under-3s. Just very calmly, "here, let me help you. Okay, thank you" and they're on their way before they even realize what's happened.

I'm going to make a potentially inflammatory statement now. I don't mean it that way, but it might seem that way. I don't mean anybody personally. But I do think that sometimes we confuse gentle discipline with low expectations, and that's something that I try to be very careful of. To me, my kids' tasks in the house are an example of that.

[lisavark]

Originally Posted by Llyra

I do think that sometimes we confuse gentle discipline with low expectations.

What, no flames yet?

Seriously, I'd love to hear other mama's perspective on this. On how to avoid it. I'm just in the beginning stages of discipline with my 20 month old DD, but having too-low expectations is one of my fears of gentle discipline. And particularly consensual living, which I find very attractive as an idea, but I don't know how it would really work in practice--particularly with young children. I could see moving more toward it as my children get older.

[bstandlee]

Originally Posted by Llyra

But what I've found is that in our house we all get along much better when I lay down some expectations and enforce them consistently.

That was DH's and my original intent with helping clear the table: establish the expectation that the whole family helps clean up. With the power struggle issue, it seems we took a wrong turn.

But, I'm happy to report that ever since we decided not to make it a forced issue he's happily helped clear the table every night! He must have sensed something different in our attitudes. When we were done eating and he asked to be excused we just said, "Sure! I'm going to carry my plate in to the kitchen. Would you like to carry something from the table too?" And he excitedly replied "Yes!"

Thanks for all your feedback. It really helped clarify and improve this situation

[mamazee]

Low expectations isn't really an issue IMO for a toddler. I have high expectations for my 7-year-old. I have no expectations at all for my baby. Not having expectations for a baby is age appropriate, and having low expectations for a toddler is also age appropriate. And is it worth having power struggles at 2.5 when at 3 or 3.5 a child is likely to do the same without power struggles? What is gained in forcing table clearing six months or a year earlier with power struggles? How does that benefit the child? An extra half year or so of them carrying a plate and cup to the kitchen? If it is causing power struggles, the damage to the relationship caused by continual power struggles just isn't worth it.

Especially as 2.5-year-olds are still at an age where they love to do grown-up things like clear cups and help their parents with jobs. Why not nurture their natural inclination to help instead of making a big issue over getting a cup and plate into the kitchen after dinner?

[JL83]

Originally Posted by lisavark

What, no flames yet?

Seriously, I'd love to hear other mama's perspective on this. On how to avoid it. I'm just in the beginning stages of discipline with my 20 month old DD, but having too-low expectations is one of my fears of gentle discipline. And particularly consensual living, which I find very attractive as an idea, but I don't know how it would really work in practice--particularly with young children. I could see moving more toward it as my children get older.

We believe in consensual living, but it's something we're aiming towards as our children get older. I don't personally think that it works well with toddlers or little kids. So we have expectations and enforce them.

For us, gentle discipline comes in with how we enforce those expectations. We don't use shaming, we allow for discussion and negotiation.

Where the "high expectations" come in is how we expect her to behave. If I ask her to help me clean up her animals and she'd rather clean up the blocks, that's fine. But it's not OK for her to just throw a fit when I ask her to clean up her animals. We will talk about it and compromise.

[JL83]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Low expectations isn't really an issue IMO for a toddler. I have high expectations for my 7-year-old. I have no expectations at all for my baby. Not having expectations for a baby is age appropriate, and having low expectations for a toddler is also age appropriate. And is it worth having power struggles at 2.5 when at 3 or 3.5 a child is likely to do the same without power struggles? What is gained in forcing table clearing six months or a year earlier with power struggles? How does that benefit the child? An extra half year or so of them carrying a plate and cup to the kitchen? If it is causing power struggles, the damage to the relationship caused by continual power struggles just isn't worth it.

Especially as 2.5-year-olds are still at an age where they love to do grown-up things like clear cups and help their parents with jobs. Why not nurture their natural inclination to help instead of making a big issue over getting a cup and plate into the kitchen after dinner?

Because both sides of the equation matter!

I don't think it's acceptable for my child to simply refuse to do a reasonable request. I could care less that she's 3. She's part of our family and we all help each other out in an age appropriate way. I have never wanted to be a child's servant. I didn't before I had a child and I don't want to now.

So sometimes there are going to be disagreements.

We started with daily chores and things she was expected to do at around 2. When we come in she's expected to put her shoes "neatly" on the mat at the front door. The age appropriateness is that I have never criticized her when her shoes barely made it onto the mat. I just smiled and thanked her for putter her shoes neatly on the mat. Over that last year her ability to do it properly has greatly increased. Now she'll straighten DH's shoes if he just kicks them onto the mat.

She have a cubby type shelf for her plastic kid dishes. When she was just 2 she kind of tossed/shoved them in when we unloaded the dishwasher. Now her cups, plates, and bowls are all stacked.

For us it's negotiable about how and when she does it. Sometimes she wants to read a book before she clears her plates. We're fine with that.

But we're NOT ok with her not helping.

It really opened my eyes when she started daycare at 20 months. Every child (so a complete mix of abilities) was capable of clearing their dishes after snacks and lunch. They were able to dump the food/napkins into the food bin and then put the dishes into the dishes tub. None of them argued about it or complained. They just did it. I think it helped that they all did it at the same time. So we started that at home.