Raising Primal Kids

[Metasequoia]

I posted the following on Mark's Daily Apple, a Paleo lifestyle blog/forum:

I know Paleo eating is the optimal diet. I understand why & I feel best eating this way.
It makes sense to me that my little Paleos can thrive on this type of diet as well. But they're ALWAYS hungry.

My oldest daughter will be 10 this winter. She's built just like me, lean & mean, lol. Like me, she can eat and eat a lot. Unlike me, she has a tendency towards yeast issues. As a baby we both had thrush while nursing & she had frequent yeasty diaper rashes.

We're able to control it by not eating any sugar - at all. Occasionally, she'll have a slice of fruit. For instance, both she & my second daughter (she'll be 7 this winter) had a quarter of a pear each the other day. Within FIVE minutes, both complained of belly aches & had diarrhea. Then they were fine.

My son (who will be 4 in March), was fine with his quarter, as was I.
So I think they're sensitive to sugar. My firstborn has had many incidents where she's been at a party & has eaten a bowl of fruit salad & either vomited or had diarrhea or both, within 10 minutes.
No biggie, we just avoid sugar, even in fruit form, as much as possible.

I'm just trying to give the whole story here...

So I'm aware that carbs in general lead to sugar cravings & carb cravings. (I'm half way through Primal Body, Primal Mind - LOVE it!!)

I just have this block in my mind about completely cutting high-ish carb foods from the kids' diets.
Once in a while (maybe once a week), I'll cook some jasmine rice in homemade bone broth with a big strip of kombu & serve it with raw butter & sea salt. They're so much more satiated after having this with their meat & veggies.
Or, maybe a small potato each, loaded with raw butter.
I seem to react to such high food carbs depending on how my adrenals are doing at the moment. I've always been able to eat a little bit of my rice cooked in this manner. But if I eat even a spoonful of white rice at a restaurant, it's heart palps, dizziness & sweating immediately. I assume it's the lack of fat combined with it that accounts for this.

So the consensus is, rice is a grain. I know it's super high in carbs. So are potatoes - but they're also tubers...not grains.

How low carb can I go with my kids? They tend to go for animal protein, fat & veggies first & foremost, but they (especially my oldest), also like some carb. These kids can eat animal fat like you wouldn't believe. I swear they could live on scrapple & butter for the rest of their lives. (The scrapple we get is from pastured pigs & made with just buckwheat! sooo delicious.)

I'd love to hear from anyone who has any knowledge on raising "primal children."

[FairyRae]

[caedmyn]

I can't answer your question...but I can say from my own experience that I think some people just need more carbs. I low carbed (candida diet) for several months a couple of years ago and I was never really satisfied. I ate tons of meat and coconut oil, and it wasn't even really that low carb (probably 60 or a few more grams of carbs per day from low carb veggies...I really ate a TON). I also couldn't keep weight on, and I tend to be skinny so it wasn't a good thing. For me I feel better if I eat more carbs. Protein and fat help my blood sugar to stay stable and keep me feeling full longer, but only carbs make me feel satisfied.

So I guess I would say that maybe it isn't so bad if your kids eat some carbs. Since the point of traditional foods is really to help you feel your best, if eating more carbs helps them feel better and doesn't lead to health issues, why not? Since the various traditional groups that WAP studied ate widely different diets, including very high carb diets, and were very healthy, I have trouble seeing any of the more extreme diets like raw food, primal, paleo, etc as being THE way to eat for everyone IYKWIM. JMO though!

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

For me I feel better if I eat more carbs. Protein and fat help my blood sugar to stay stable and keep me feeling full longer, but only carbs make me feel satisfied.

Caedmyn, I'm just wondering--how many carbs do you think you usually need to feel good? I'm just really interested in the carb stuff right now and wanting to learn as much as I can about it!

[Metasequoia]

I wonder *why* some people say they feel better with carbs? I mean, there can be a wide range of carb intake - some people will *only* eat meat while others try to stick to less than 30 grams/day & some keep it under 60 grams/day. etc. (I'm not saying that people don't feel better, I'm wondering why they feel better.)

Nora Gedgaudas (Primal Body, Primal Mind) says that our bodies have no need for carbohydrate, none at all. Protein & fat are essential to our survival, but carbs, not at all.

I do understand that getting of off heavy carb diets, grains especially can have a wicked withdrawal period, similar to a hangover. I didn't experience that personally, but I know people who have. So I wonder for some who say they "feel better with carbs" if this is the reason? That they feel like such junk immediately after eliminating grains/carbs but don't stick it out long enough to get over the withdrawal period, so naturally they feel better once they get some of that craving. Just pondering..

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

I do understand that getting of off heavy carb diets, grains especially can have a wicked withdrawal period, similar to a hangover. I didn't experience that personally, but I know people who have. So I wonder for some who say they "feel better with carbs" if this is the reason? That they feel like such junk immediately after eliminating grains/carbs but don't stick it out long enough to get over the withdrawal period, so naturally they feel better once they get some of that craving. Just pondering..

I find all of this fascinating--and am still experimenting w/ what feels best *to me*. I find w/out getting in *at least* 100 g of carbs a day (currently) that I am still hungry--but I think it's because I don't have enough other fat/protein sources atm. I'm working on creating fat-based snacks/meals that are not high carb--I find I need to eat 3 big meals daily PLUS 2-3 snacks (maybe b/c I don't eat enough during my 'big' meals?). I've been only getting 1500-1800 calories a day lately w/out grains, and I think this is why I'm still hungry (I'm nursing my toddler to, and I'm NOT dieting...). It's a matter of not finding enough food! Or lack of creativity around it!

So, for *me*, it's an issue of getting enough fat, I think--b/c when I DO I feel totally satisfied and full, for a while. Grains always made me feel bloated, at least in my memory. Not sure about all carbs in general--I'm really still experimenting. So, IMO a major reason *some* folks might not do so well when low carbing it is not enough FAT. The majority of 'low carb diets' out there are also low fat, so there is no wonder those ones fail!

Gotta run--love this topic though and so interested to read more!!!

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

I wonder *why* some people say they feel better with carbs? I mean, there can be a wide range of carb intake - some people will *only* eat meat while others try to stick to less than 30 grams/day & some keep it under 60 grams/day. etc. (I'm not saying that people don't feel better, I'm wondering why they feel better.)

I do understand that getting of off heavy carb diets, grains especially can have a wicked withdrawal period, similar to a hangover. I didn't experience that personally, but I know people who have. So I wonder for some who say they "feel better with carbs" if this is the reason? That they feel like such junk immediately after eliminating grains/carbs but don't stick it out long enough to get over the withdrawal period, so naturally they feel better once they get some of that craving. Just pondering..

I have always wondered that as well. I have a friend that says that, but she only goes a few days. Plus, she goes from an extremely carb heavy diet to really low carb and then doesn't replace those calories either. Of course I am sure there are some individual variances. I get heart palps from lots of carbs- it lasts a LONG time for me. Not near as bad as the hangover from grains and especially gluten, but certainly not fun.

[sisteeesmama]

To the OP I started a seperate thread about something you said about the heart palpitations and stuff because this happens to me, but I didn't want to hi-jack your thread!

[suzukiaustin]

Hi Metasequoia,

My kids are both Primal kids...no potatoes or rice at all. They didn't really adjust to this way of eating (hungry) until I cut these foods out of their diet. Now their bodies know to run on fat and not on carbs...they are doing really well eating this way, as am I. The carbs they do get are all through fruits (1, very seldom 2 pieces of low sugar fruits a day) and all the veggies they want. Here's their menu from today:

BFT: homemade turkey jerky, 1-2 fried eggs, persimmon, tbls raw butter on the spoon
Snack: brazil nuts, 1/2 kiwi
LCH: homemade chicken sausage, homemade mayo, spinach sauteed in butter, avocado, sauerkraut
Snack: Liver pate with carrot sticks
DNR: leftover beef pot roast, bok choy, kombucha, more butter

Have you read Neanderthin by Ray Audette yet? It is out of print, but I highly recommend you find a copy somewhere. He has his daily menus in there and it's insane how much food the man is eating. You wouldn't ever go hungry eating that much food!! I think he's right on, though, and he talks about kids eating Paleo/Primal in his book.

I'm totally sold on eating this way. I have never felt better and my kids are really thriving. We had some kids over the other day who eat a SAD diet and I really worry for them. They couldn't concentrate, only wanted to eat sugar, were fighting, throwing things...man, I feel sorry for public school teachers!!

Before I forget, my kids will go for soup now, especially with the warm weather. I make my broth with kombu, and I sometimes make higher carb soups, like carrot soup or veggie soup for them. All stews are made with broth and any reheated meat is heated with broth, not water. They get plenty of broth and seaweed (they eat this by itself) all the time. Egg drop soup with seaweed and zucchini is a big hit, too.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Metasequoia]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

I find all of this fascinating--and am still experimenting w/ what feels best *to me*. I find w/out getting in *at least* 100 g of carbs a day (currently) that I am still hungry--but I think it's because I don't have enough other fat/protein sources atm. I'm working on creating fat-based snacks/meals that are not high carb--I find I need to eat 3 big meals daily PLUS 2-3 snacks (maybe b/c I don't eat enough during my 'big' meals?). I've been only getting 1500-1800 calories a day lately w/out grains, and I think this is why I'm still hungry (I'm nursing my toddler to, and I'm NOT dieting...). It's a matter of not finding enough food! Or lack of creativity around it!

So, for *me*, it's an issue of getting enough fat, I think--b/c when I DO I feel totally satisfied and full, for a while. Grains always made me feel bloated, at least in my memory. Not sure about all carbs in general--I'm really still experimenting. So, IMO a major reason *some* folks might not do so well when low carbing it is not enough FAT. The majority of 'low carb diets' out there are also low fat, so there is no wonder those ones fail!

Gotta run--love this topic though and so interested to read more!!!

Interesting. In my own experience, and from what I've read, once you get rid of the carbs & sugar, you won't feel as hungry. I went really hardcore - only meats & non-starchy veggies (& lots of butter) - just breakfast, lunch & dinner, no snacking allowed. I felt soooo good. A year ago, I would have experienced severe hypoglycemia symptoms. I used to be a snacker all.day.long. Not necessarily carby snacks, but just eating nonstop. I must have been eating more "goodies" back then, even though I was GF & tried to avoid sugar.

SO, I wonder if you did something similar if you'd feel similarly? Fat is definitely what satiates me. I can sit down & eat sauerkraut, a fermented pickle & a couple slices of a beef roast slathered in butter (like I just did ) & still feel like "something's missing..." So I poured a cup of heavy whipping cream, boiled a couple tablespoons of water, mixed some cocoa powder into the water, added to the cream - 2 drops of stevia glycerite & now I'm absolutely satisfied.

Dd2's behavior goes down the tubes if she eats any form of dairy other than butter, so that limits us because I won't serve the other 2 dairy if she's present because I just think it's not fair. (I sneak it, lol.) So I'll sometimes make a similar chocolate cream drink using coconut milk & sometimes I'll add a little beef gelatin to the hot water-cocoa mixture & let it set a bit in the fridge so it's like chocolate-coconut cream-pudding-jello.

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

I have always wondered that as well. I have a friend that says that, but she only goes a few days. Plus, she goes from an extremely carb heavy diet to really low carb and then doesn't replace those calories either. Of course I am sure there are some individual variances. I get heart palps from lots of carbs- it lasts a LONG time for me. Not near as bad as the hangover from grains and especially gluten, but certainly not fun.

Yea, that's a perfect example of someone who might say "I feel better when I eat carbs" but they've never given their body a chance to adapt - which really doesn't take *that* long.

Originally Posted by suzukiaustin

Hi Metasequoia,

My kids are both Primal kids...no potatoes or rice at all. They didn't really adjust to this way of eating (hungry) until I cut these foods out of their diet. Now their bodies know to run on fat and not on carbs...they are doing really well eating this way, as am I. The carbs they do get are all through fruits (1, very seldom 2 pieces of low sugar fruits a day) and all the veggies they want. Here's their menu from today:

BFT: homemade turkey jerky, 1-2 fried eggs, persimmon, tbls raw butter on the spoon
Snack: brazil nuts, 1/2 kiwi
LCH: homemade chicken sausage, homemade mayo, spinach sauteed in butter, avocado, sauerkraut
Snack: Liver pate with carrot sticks
DNR: leftover beef pot roast, bok choy, kombucha, more butter

Have you read Neanderthin by Ray Audette yet? It is out of print, but I highly recommend you find a copy somewhere. He has his daily menus in there and it's insane how much food the man is eating. You wouldn't ever go hungry eating that much food!! I think he's right on, though, and he talks about kids eating Paleo/Primal in his book.

I'm totally sold on eating this way. I have never felt better and my kids are really thriving. We had some kids over the other day who eat a SAD diet and I really worry for them. They couldn't concentrate, only wanted to eat sugar, were fighting, throwing things...man, I feel sorry for public school teachers!!

Before I forget, my kids will go for soup now, especially with the warm weather. I make my broth with kombu, and I sometimes make higher carb soups, like carrot soup or veggie soup for them. All stews are made with broth and any reheated meat is heated with broth, not water. They get plenty of broth and seaweed (they eat this by itself) all the time. Egg drop soup with seaweed and zucchini is a big hit, too.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks so much for this!!

The part about once you cut the rice & potatoes, their hunger went away makes total sense - like what I just responded to earlier in this post. The body, after being used to using glucose as fuel, needs time to figure out that it can use fat & ketones instead (a preferred method.) I feel in my bones that this is right for me (& all humans) & I don't know why it's so hard for me to "know" it as deeply when it comes to my kids.

I need to find Neanderthin! Sounds like I'd love it - this is my new favorite topic & it somehow feels like "the end of the line" - like I've read so many variations on diet & this is just finally - The Way It Should Be.

Your kids' menu is so very much like mine:

Breakfast: eggs, scrambled with collards & onions, lots of butter. CLO, K2 + D.
Lunch: Burger with sauerkraut & a fermented pickle with cauliflower sauteed in butter & coconut oil, 1/4 of a pomegranate.
Dinner: Beef roast, slathered with butter, sauerkraut.
Snack: (immediately following dinner) coconut milk with cocoa & 2 drops of stevia glycerite.

Yep, mine like stews too! They prefer stews to soups, the thicker the better, so I puree a lot. I also put kombu in my stocks & again in my soups.

So you're okay with carrots for them? Mine like winter squash soup - I cook the squash in bone broth, add Celtic salt, kombu, cinnamon, nutmeg & puree. It's really thick & I serve it with a gob or raw butter & Celtic salt. That's one of their favorites & I might serve it with a chicken drumstick for each of them. I can also put collards/kale/chard in there before pureeing.

Thanks for sharing! I'm LOVING this conversation!

[BabyMae09]

This is REALLY interesting to me. I was a strict veg. for about a year, and I felt the best that I've ever felt.

I've never gone without fruit or carbs for very long. In fact, you could call me the carb queen

Could someone give a brief run-down of the reasons why humans don't need carbs and sugar? Aren't they part of our body's fuel? Not trying to hijack, just super-interested!

[Metasequoia]

Carbohydrates (sugar, starchy veggies, grains, fruit) all turn into glucose in the body, same as white sugar. Potatoes & bread = many, MANY teaspoons of sugar.

The body will use glucose as fuel, but it's not healthy. The body much prefers to run on fat & ketones as fuel.

Glucose not used = body fat & clogged arteries.

[BabyMae09]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

Carbohydrates (sugar, starchy veggies, grains, fruit) all turn into glucose in the body, same as white sugar. Potatoes & bread = many, MANY teaspoons of sugar.

The body will use glucose as fuel, but it's not healthy. The body much prefers to run on fat & ketones as fuel.

Glucose not used = body fat & clogged arteries.

Wow. So even really good, healthy bread is not what my body prefers and needs? What about brown rice? You're blowing my mind here!! And thanks for the info

[janinemh]

Originally Posted by BabyMae09

Could someone give a brief run-down of the reasons why humans don't need carbs and sugar? Aren't they part of our body's fuel? Not trying to hijack, just super-interested!

Also, to add to PP, Carbs are not "essential" nutrients while protein and fat are--meaning that our bodies cannot produce protein and fat on its own and can manufacture glucose from other things (mainly excess protein) when it needs to. Usually, we only really need the quick burning fuel from carbs during times of extreme stress or exertion (think: fight and flight like running from a lion). Our bodies were made to run on fat all the rest of them time. I'm currently training as a nutritional therapist and my instructor often compares fat and carb fuel to logs and kindling. Carbs burn fast and quick but don't give you sustained energy. While fat will sustain you for a long period of time. Just like you can't keep a woodstove going on kindling, our bodies weren't meant to burn hot and fast all the time.

[sisteeesmama]

Ooooh, loving this too!!! Hope this conversation just goes on and on! I need more info, links, blogs, books please!

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

Interesting. In my own experience, and from what I've read, once you get rid of the carbs & sugar, you won't feel as hungry. I went really hardcore - only meats & non-starchy veggies (& lots of butter) - just breakfast, lunch & dinner, no snacking allowed. I felt soooo good.

When I dropped grains [ETA: and all refined sugars--just doing honey and fruits] (pretty recently, maybe a month ago now--and after being off gluten for a year) I noticed not feeling hungry at all, and needing WAY less food in general. But I also didn't really change the rest of my carb intake--I still ate lots of starchy veggies and fruit--probably more to make up for the missing grains.

Since watching my carb intake (VERY recently) I think I've just cut out the carbs I was eating *without replacing them* with fat or protein. I just think I'm not eating enough at each meal...I think I need more fat, but I'm just figuring out how to get it in, and stick to my budget, etc. I'm still in the early learning phases. I think you're right--that I won't feel as hungry once my body is used to it and once I'm getting the right amount of food for me. (I only know what my carb intake is from fitday.com, so have been 'watching' it in this way, trying to keep it between 100-150, per MDA recs.) I'm just so interested in this carb stuff that I want to try and see what it's like to have a lower carb intake than I'm used to (while making sure I'm getting enough satiating fats).

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

SO, I wonder if you did something similar if you'd feel similarly? Fat is definitely what satiates me. I can sit down & eat sauerkraut, a fermented pickle & a couple slices of a beef roast slathered in butter (like I just did ) & still feel like "something's missing..." So I poured a cup of heavy whipping cream, boiled a couple tablespoons of water, mixed some cocoa powder into the water, added to the cream - 2 drops of stevia glycerite & now I'm absolutely satisfied.

I think this is exactly what I need. I've been doing lots of (fatty cuts of) meat and veggies topped w/ ghee or olive oil etc. but still feeling like I need something else after. (We are dairy free aside from the ghee, so milk is out for us for now.) I'm still looking for more ideas of good fatty, filling foods. I'm sure coconut milk/oil etc. will be a big part of this for *us*. I LOVE coconut anything, and it usually helps me feel a lot more satisfied...

So, I'm just on the lookout for more of these kind of things! I think when I've got the fat/protein/carb balance right for me, going lower carb could be very right for me!

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by janinemh

I'm currently training as a nutritional therapist and my instructor often compares fat and carb fuel to logs and kindling. Carbs burn fast and quick but don't give you sustained energy. While fat will sustain you for a long period of time. Just like you can't keep a woodstove going on kindling, our bodies weren't meant to burn hot and fast all the time.

Wow--so is that why fats are so much more satiating?? Very cool info--loving this thread!!!

ETA: I realized I haven't eaten anything in hours, and am still feeling quite full--after the chicken leg (w/ skin) and the salad I had for dinner I ate a couple of coconut oil/peanut butter/honey 'payday' treats--sooo yummy, and pretty fatty and filling. Fat ROCKS!

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

I wonder *why* some people say they feel better with carbs? I mean, there can be a wide range of carb intake - some people will *only* eat meat while others try to stick to less than 30 grams/day & some keep it under 60 grams/day. etc. (I'm not saying that people don't feel better, I'm wondering why they feel better.)

Nora Gedgaudas (Primal Body, Primal Mind) says that our bodies have no need for carbohydrate, none at all. Protein & fat are essential to our survival, but carbs, not at all.

I do understand that getting of off heavy carb diets, grains especially can have a wicked withdrawal period, similar to a hangover. I didn't experience that personally, but I know people who have. So I wonder for some who say they "feel better with carbs" if this is the reason? That they feel like such junk immediately after eliminating grains/carbs but don't stick it out long enough to get over the withdrawal period, so naturally they feel better once they get some of that craving. Just pondering..

I don't know why...but I did go low carb for over a month on two separate occasions...three actually now that I think about it (well I guess one time I was eating pears so that probably wouldn't count as low carb) and I just seem to need grains &/or potatoes to really feel satisfied. I never noticed any withdrawal symptoms, just being unsatisfied. I do tend to need to eat a lot in general to avoid losing weight so maybe I am not typical, IDK.

And I don't have any idea how many carbs I really need to feel better/full enough...probably at least a good sized piece of bread worth a couple of meals per day. Sorry, that's probably not very helpful!

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

And I don't have any idea how many carbs I really need to feel better/full enough...probably at least a good sized piece of bread worth a couple of meals per day. Sorry, that's probably not very helpful!

I totally get it--until a couple of days ago I wouldn't have known my carb intake by gram either! I'm just finding fitday to be a SUPER cool resource since I'm interested in all this stuff (atm )...

[DoubleLove]

Wow, this is a very interesting thread. I'd like to learn more and so I'm wondering what books you all have used to learn learn from. I've seen Primal Body, Primal Mind and Neanderthin mentioned. Any others?

I'm particularly curious how sprouted grains/nuts/legumes fit in?