Raising Primal Kids - Page 4

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

I wonder this too - if I'm burning fat as fuel. My problem is, I eat too much. Not that I eat constantly or even snack at all on some days, but that I guess I eat a lot at meals. I've been pregnant and/or nursing for so long & now that Ds is going to be 4 in March, I don't think I need to be eating like this. So I'm finding myself uncomfortably *stuffed* on what wouldn't have been enough a year ago. I'm having a hard time figuring out if this is A.) because of my nursling getting older or B.) I eliminated gluten & can now absorb nutrients more efficiently or C.) I've gone so low carb/low sugar that I'm not craving - or that I've finally FIXED my hypoglycemia issue with this diet.

Nonetheless, I need to serve myself smaller portions. And I need to stop eating like there's a food storage. After I eat something like my dinner last night which left me entirely full, I waited about 1/2 hour & made chocolate cream (cocoa powder, 2 drops of stevia & a full cup of heavy whipping cream.) I feel like, "hey, I can get MORE fat!" so I indulge, but I don't think I need it.

I find myself doing this at times as well as I used to eat so much. It is amazing to me that I can feel full so much quicker. I have been practicing for a while now to just do the principle of eating just until I start to feel full and then wait a bit and see if I am still hungry before I eat more. It is a fine balance to find that just right spot of just full enough- especially in this culture and w/ health issues intermingled in there.

AND THEN, there's Nora's chapter on "fooling Mother Nature." It has to do with allowing the body to repair itself to "live *just* one more day" (to reproduce) by limiting caloric intake. It's complicated & I'd never heard of it before, but essentially, when we eat plenty, this isn't the path taken by the body.
So intermittent fasting (IF) & keeping caloric intake low is highly beneficial to the body. Overeating is VERY, VERY bad.

I find the IF thing so very interesting. At first it really threw me for a loop as it is one of those ideas that completely flies in the face of traditional diet wisdom. But you know I have also realized that my body seems to natural want to do this? My body natural cycles through calorie needs. I can have a few days where I don't want to hardly eat and could go most of the day w/ a fairly small eating window then of course days when I feel like eating like normal. For me though I need to honor that I think , but not try to force it into a contest of starving myself. Of course I am sure our ancestors weren't watching a clock either but rather waiting for hunger or waiting until they had access to food.

*Disclaimer- I am obviously not planning to start a schedule of IF while 40 wks pregnant- but as always just trying to listen to my body. I do however try to make sure I don't overeat as I don't think that is ever good!

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

AND THEN, there's Nora's chapter on "fooling Mother Nature." It has to do with allowing the body to repair itself to "live *just* one more day" (to reproduce) by limiting caloric intake. It's complicated & I'd never heard of it before, but essentially, when we eat plenty, this isn't the path taken by the body.
So intermittent fasting (IF) & keeping caloric intake low is highly beneficial to the body. Overeating is VERY, VERY bad.

See, I don't know *if* I would feel satisfied on her sample menus. (Maybe if I took the time to switch to ketosis, etc, I would??...) She recs 2-3 oz of meat/animal protein per meal or a/b 15 grams protein (if you're eating 3 a day), which is really a small amount (compared to what I've been eating, esp. when you include other non-meat protein sources!) From calculating it into fitday, eating a 4 oz peice of meat and 2 eggs would probably be all the protein for the whole day, for me. I probably currently eat 2x this amount--esp. calculating in plant/nut based protein sources! Her recommendations for accompaniments to meals are basically veggies w/ fat, and nuts (which also take up some of the protein content for the day)--which is fine, but still hard for me to visualize how I would get *enough* to feel full, and keep carbs so low. I'm sure it has to do w/ getting lots of fat, although she doesn't have any recs (that I've read so far) about how to get lots more fat in besides using olive oil, butter and cheese until you're satisfied...I have not read the whole book though. Maybe I just have issues w/ visualization, and need to try it... Figuring out a fitting sample menu that would work for me (that has under 40 g protein, and less carbs, and way more fats--to try) is kind of what I'm struggling w/...

[Metasequoia]

I'd like to try her sample menus for a week & see how I feel. I need a starting point. This morning & ate some leftover dark meat chicken, sauerkraut & leftover squash with raw butter. I was really uncomfortably full afterward. I didn't get the weird dizzy feeling I get from too much crab/sugar, but I felt uncomfortable. It could have been the squash or just too much. I thin for breakfast I especially do best with just meat & veggies (with fat), very little carb. At dinner, I feel better eating a little more carb, like squash.

I think I could eat a lot less & feel good.

Back on topic, lol. I read this in PBPM this morning:

Originally Posted by Nora Gedgaudas

The brain uses ketones in a state of ketosis. Cerebral ketone utilization is prevalent, for instance, in newborn infants nursing on fat-rich mother's milk. The switch to dependence on glucose does not occur until carbohydrates are introduced into the child's diet.

This says two things to me: 1.) If a diet high in fat & low in carbs/sugar was maintained, children's bodies would never need to use glucose as fuel. and 2.) Perhaps the nutrition of the mother (as far as fat intake & level of carbs) affects what the child's body uses as fuel (ketones or glucose) according to teh fat content/quality in her milk. This could theoretically set a child up for carb/sugar cravings from the get-go.

Interesting stuff.

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

I'd like to try her sample menus for a week & see how I feel.

Yay--when you do, please share w/ us!! For now I'm going to *try* to stick more to the MDA carb recs (for maintenance), and just eat the protein and fat till satisfied and let the rest go. I'm getting obsessive a/b this which I tend to do...

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

Perhaps the nutrition of the mother (as far as fat intake & level of carbs) affects what the child's body uses as fuel (ketones or glucose) according to teh fat content/quality in her milk. This could theoretically set a child up for carb/sugar cravings from the get-go.

Fascinating!

Hey, Weston Price *did* study some cultures that ate almost all meat and fat, right? I'd be interested in comparing those cultures to the ones who ate more carbs and/or grains...And I'd be interested in seeing what % of all of their food intake came from protein/carbs/fat... (sorry--off the primal kids topic again... )

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

Hey, Weston Price *did* study some cultures that ate almost all meat and fat, right? I'd be interested in comparing those cultures to the ones who ate more carbs and/or grains...And I'd be interested in seeing what % of all of their food intake came from protein/carbs/fat... (sorry--off the primal kids topic again... )

Not WAP, but back in November 2007 Aajonus Vonderplantiz was visiting the Philippines trying to find primitive tribes to study their diet. He finally found a tribe and managed to visit them without the permission of the Philippine government. He met and interviewed 4 members of the tribe, his translator had learned English after leaving the tribe 7 years previously. He interviewed one man who said he was around 80 years old and Aajonus said he looked "a stunning 40-something" and three women who said they were in their 40s but looked in their late 20 early 30s. Aajonus described the women: "They had impressive stalky constitutions and strong white teeth that looked flawless." He went on to say that he had expected them to have a diet that fitted with Weston Price's description, but they told him they only ate raw food and only three foods at that. Raw fish, coconuts and the occasional fruit of either banana or mango. The raw fish and coconut was their primary diet.

He was quite shocked at their appearance. He said he imagined that any tribe who lived on raw fish and coconut would be slender. But these people were thicker and taller than most Asians. He said, "I think that this was the most exhilarating validation of long term rewards of my Primal Diet (NB, Aajonus' Primal Diet, isn't really the same as the diet discussed in this thread), even though their fat-enriched food was coconut rather than animal fats." He doesn't believe that this kind of diet would work for modern people because we are so toxic and coconut pulp is most often indigestible and the juices and fats are detoxifying rather than building. He did say he observed 16 people between 1980 and 1982 who ate mainly raw meats and coconuts. He said "they suffered frequently and were relatively malnourished." He feels in our toxic world we get well better and with less pain when we eat raw animal fats.

[FairyRae]

uccmama, do you know if AW has studied any other cultures? That is very interesting to me. I'd love more links on him/his diet--I've read a tiny bit about it. I'm just not there when it comes to raw meat *yet* (although I would do raw milk/kefir/cheese etc. if we did dairy!)--but am soooo open to learning the benefits of it! I've been thinking to do the raw liver 'pills' at some point though...

In Nora's book, she mentions that we should, in general, consume 50% of all animal and plant foods raw (and/or cultured--I really like her emphasis on cultured foods--something I think is so central to TF, and missing in a lot of other books on diet/nutrition/etc.)

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

uccmama, do you know if AW has studied any other cultures? That is very interesting to me. I'd love more links on him/his diet--I've read a tiny bit about it. I'm just not there when it comes to raw meat *yet* (although I would do raw milk/kefir/cheese etc. if we did dairy!)--but am soooo open to learning the benefits of it! I've been thinking to do the raw liver 'pills' at some point though...

I don't know if Aajonus has studied other cultures, sorry. If you are interested in Aajonus's work, I recommend reading his two books: We Want to Live and The Recipe for Living Without Disease. His most up to date info can be found in his newsletters which you have to subscribe to. http://www.wewant2live.com/.

To the OP, and WRT primal kids, I am interested in the growth patterns of kids raised on this kind of paleo/primal diet. I am curious how they compare to to other kids -- now I realize that there are a lot of factors involved here, genetics, maternal pre-natal health and diet, environmental toxicity etc, etc -- but generally are your kids robust, well-formed, tall etc?

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

The eating to hunger thing has me a little unsure as well. I've been trusting my body to eat what it needs for over a year now, and have been doing amazingly well w/ this (in terms of weight loss, feeling good, etc.--I've never felt better in my life). I've just felt so in tune w/ what (I think) I need. But reading this stuff about ketosis, running off of ketones instead of glucose, I really wonder if my cravings for carb rich foods (and lots of protein as well) are b/c I've been (unnaturally) running on glucose for so long, and if following my food cravings is NOT the best/most healthy path to take b/c it keeps me utilizing glucose as the major energy source... (I'm still just in the deep learning phases of all this, and not certain about application, and just full of questions!!!)

Something like that seems to make sense to me, but then again I'm not expert.

Originally Posted by FairyRae

See, I don't know *if* I would feel satisfied on her sample menus. (Maybe if I took the time to switch to ketosis, etc, I would??...) She recs 2-3 oz of meat/animal protein per meal or a/b 15 grams protein (if you're eating 3 a day), which is really a small amount (compared to what I've been eating, esp. when you include other non-meat protein sources!) From calculating it into fitday, eating a 4 oz peice of meat and 2 eggs would probably be all the protein for the whole day, for me. I probably currently eat 2x this amount--esp. calculating in plant/nut based protein sources! Her recommendations for accompaniments to meals are basically veggies w/ fat, and nuts (which also take up some of the protein content for the day)--which is fine, but still hard for me to visualize how I would get *enough* to feel full, and keep carbs so low.

This seems to be very much along the lines of what Dr. Cowan was talking about this weekend. I had a hard time visualizing where all the fat would come in. Obviously some of it would come in via cooking fats, dressings if it were salad, etc, but it still seems like it would be pretty difficult.

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

This says two things to me: 1.) If a diet high in fat & low in carbs/sugar was maintained, children's bodies would never need to use glucose as fuel. and 2.) Perhaps the nutrition of the mother (as far as fat intake & level of carbs) affects what the child's body uses as fuel (ketones or glucose) according to teh fat content/quality in her milk. This could theoretically set a child up for carb/sugar cravings from the get-go.

I wonder if possibly it might go further back than when the child is nursing to the mother's prenatal nutrition. *If* she were more likely using ketones vs glucose in pregnancy would that impact what the child's body uses as fuel? When pregnant with ds I don't ever remember there being ketones, but with dd and this pregnancy I have a really hard time not having ketones show up at my prenatal appointment unless I eat a ton of carbs beforehand. Give the food preferences of my two children now sometimes I wonder if that's played a role.

ETA: As for telling whether or not your body is running on ketones...what about ketostix/ketone sticks? They sell them in most major stores/drugstores where the diabetic stuff is and I believe it's more than just a positive/negative result, but that they have a range of results that you can compare to a color chart. They're not perfect (if your body is more efficient at using ketones they may not show up), but it might be a start...and possibly fairly inexpensive way to satisfy one's curiosity.

Oh, and the WAPF sells the conference sessions recordings on their website.

[BabyMae09]

All of this is really interesting... anyone have tips on starting to try to eat primal? I have to admit, it's all a bit confusing. tia, nak

[Kindermama]

just getting started over here (day 3).....so far so good!

[FairyRae]

Originally Posted by BabyMae09

All of this is really interesting... anyone have tips on starting to try to eat primal?

For me, the first step was going totally grain (and refined sugar) free. And really, that is where I am--not sure I'd call myself 'primal', as I am still eating really all tubers and beans sometimes. Grainfree seems to be a universal thing among paleo/primal groups, and I think makes a MAJOR difference in how you feel. Going gluten free is even a place to start if droppin grains is too much at first.

Just my $.02!

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

For me, the first step was going totally grain (and refined sugar) free. And really, that is where I am--not sure I'd call myself 'primal', as I am still eating really all tubers and beans sometimes. Grainfree seems to be a universal thing among paleo/primal groups, and I think makes a MAJOR difference in how you feel. Going gluten free is even a place to start if droppin grains is too much at first.

Just my $.02!

I would second that. I think gluten free and refined flour and sugar is the first step(you have to watch just going gluten free as a lot of time you end up w/ a lot of baked goods w a pretty fair amount of sugar and refined starches). Then grainfree. Then there are tubers and legumes. I am handling grainfree and sugarlite at this time pretty easy. Some legumes- ie some pb, peas and sweet potatoes- a very small amount of sugar and maybe 2 servings of fruit a day-usually.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Metasequoia

I wonder *why* some people say they feel better with carbs? I mean, there can be a wide range of carb intake - some people will *only* eat meat while others try to stick to less than 30 grams/day & some keep it under 60 grams/day. etc. (I'm not saying that people don't feel better, I'm wondering why they feel better.)

Nora Gedgaudas (Primal Body, Primal Mind) says that our bodies have no need for carbohydrate, none at all. Protein & fat are essential to our survival, but carbs, not at all.

I do understand that getting of off heavy carb diets, grains especially can have a wicked withdrawal period, similar to a hangover. I didn't experience that personally, but I know people who have. So I wonder for some who say they "feel better with carbs" if this is the reason? That they feel like such junk immediately after eliminating grains/carbs but don't stick it out long enough to get over the withdrawal period, so naturally they feel better once they get some of that craving. Just pondering..

Amittedly I haven't read through the whole thread so I'm sorry if this has already been addressed. People do metabolize things at different rates and therefore may require different ratios of macronutrients. Now, I do *think* that primal/paleo is the healthiest way to eat, but not everyone is at a healthy enough place to do so. IT's not a matter of being unwell or having a poor diet necessarily. We have done a LOT of damage to our environment and bodies and haven't totally caught up yet regardless of how healthy we are working to be now. It's possible that carbs (I don't like saying carbs because it's darned near impossible to eat no carb...even veggies have "carbs") in the form of grains, starches etc. slow down detox, but it's also possible that there are other mechanisms going on.

It's always best to listen to your body. While a certain diet may be an ideal, not everyone is going to respond favorably to it IMO. There are also SO many other extenuating factors beyond this like the quality of their food, inherent imbalances, individual biochemistry, other lifestyle factors etc.

Great thread though and I'm off to read it all!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by uccomama

I don't know if Aajonus has studied other cultures, sorry. If you are interested in Aajonus's work, I recommend reading his two books: We Want to Live and The Recipe for Living Without Disease. His most up to date info can be found in his newsletters which you have to subscribe to. http://www.wewant2live.com/.

To the OP, and WRT primal kids, I am interested in the growth patterns of kids raised on this kind of paleo/primal diet. I am curious how they compare to to other kids -- now I realize that there are a lot of factors involved here, genetics, maternal pre-natal health and diet, environmental toxicity etc, etc -- but generally are your kids robust, well-formed, tall etc?

Uccomama first shared this with me maybe 2 years ago (gosh, has it been that long?) when I was following a raw vegan diet. I read his books and was fascinated. I started eating this way (quite a switch!) and felt wonderful. The two best "diets" I have done for my health were this and the SCD which I totally thrived on, as did my kids.

Anyway, I highly recommend reading his stuff, especially in the context of the primal/paleo angle. His, as uccomama mentioned is not the same primal but the overlaps are kind of interesting.

I just need to get back in the swing of things!

And my kids seemed to do okay eating the raw vegan way....until they weren't. I've see-sawed with diets quite a bit because of my ideals vs. my kids (and my) needs. They are far more robust, have more patience and attention and just look better. I have no plans to take meat away anytime soon. They eat a ton of eggs, meat, nuts, fruit, veggies and coconut. No dairy for them, they can't tolerate it at all. They do occasionally have rice or potatoes. Honestly though...they definitely run on protein and fat and there is a huge difference in the way that they look AND function now vs. back then. I'd say they are easily some of the healthiest kids in their classes barring the food sensitivities (gluten, dairy, soy and peanut) and heavy metal issues.

[Metasequoia]

Originally Posted by uccomama

To the OP, and WRT primal kids, I am interested in the growth patterns of kids raised on this kind of paleo/primal diet. I am curious how they compare to to other kids -- now I realize that there are a lot of factors involved here, genetics, maternal pre-natal health and diet, environmental toxicity etc, etc -- but generally are your kids robust, well-formed, tall etc?

Sorry, I missed this earlier.

We went to a pox party yesterday & I was complimented that my children look "so healthy!" *I* think they look/act really healthy. We really never get sick. For the past 3 years, the kids have each picked up 1 stomach bug, right around this time. It's a half day of vomiting & exhaustion, then they're fine. This is all we've dealt with. For some reason, I've never experienced a stomach bug, not sure why. So their immune systems seem super strong.

My children are all slim like me, especially Dd1. Dd2 is built a but more like her father (longer torso), but is still quite slim. Ds is a sturdy boy. He's just over 3.5 yrs old & is quite tall for his age (he looks like a 5 yr old) & weighs about 38 lbs. He's still slim, but broader in the chest/back (like his father.)
They're all super active - some say "high energy", but I like to think that children are meant to have a lot of energy when they're healthy.

Behaviorally, they're definitely more easy going when they eat primal/paleo. Dd2 is the only one who seems to show behavioral problems related to food. Her main one is dairy. If she gets sugar, she'll pester about it incessantly. So we seriously avoid it, in any form. I bought cashews (raw, soaked & dehydrated) & Dd2 asks for them *constantly* & gets upset when I say no, so I'm thinking they might be a problem for her.
As far as food allergies, we've been gluten free for about 2 years now. When Ds was a baby (somewhere around 1.5 yrs), he had itchy big red bumps on his arms. I removed gluten & they went away. Reintroduced it once & the bumps came back, so no gluten for any of us, at all.
Dd1 is just prone to yeast & sugar sensitivity. A cup of apple cider or bowl of mixed fruit is enough to send to her to the toilet for 20 minutes either having diarrhea, nausea with or without vomiting or all of the above. Eating sweets results in persistent vaginal yeast, so I'm really strict about it.

[Metasequoia]

I feel like I should add about Dd1's yeast issue: The last vaginal yeast infection I had was 10.5 years ago, when I was pregnant with Dd1. After she was born, we struggled with thrush while nursing. Then she had yeasty diaper rash after yeasty diaper rash & even after potty learning, she'd still have yeast infections as a toddler.

I know I need to stick with this diet/lifestyle for her (& them) as much as for me.

[treehugginhippie]

subbing...

[bagare]

I know for me... I am a type 1 diabetic, latent onset, and I tried to low carb as a way to control it and I was just having a horrible time with my blood sugar control, and I talked to the nurse about it and she said that I actually would have an easier time with control with adding carbs back in. So I do hot cereal for breakfast with lots of butter or with eggs, cooked with a healthy amount of butter and I will have some sort of carb with dinner, potatoes, rice, something I can measure out and add in butter. All whole grains too, no white rice, bread, pasta... it is like a rocket ride. Fruits I have to have at the end of a meal or I have to combine with a fat/protien such as a nut butter or cheese or meat or eggs... you get the picture.

Interesting thread for sure! I have toyed with Paleo in with my NT/TF.

[newcastlemama]

Originally Posted by pampered_mom

I wonder if possibly it might go further back than when the child is nursing to the mother's prenatal nutrition. *If* she were more likely using ketones vs glucose in pregnancy would that impact what the child's body uses as fuel? When pregnant with ds I don't ever remember there being ketones, but with dd and this pregnancy I have a really hard time not having ketones show up at my prenatal appointment unless I eat a ton of carbs beforehand. Give the food preferences of my two children now sometimes I wonder if that's played a role.

It is the same with my two children. I ate a ton of butter with my TF paleo-ish pregnancy. My 22 mo old dd was getting in the fridge so much and eating the butter that we had to put a lock on the fridge! She is really into protein and fat. At church people laugh because she stands at the brunch table eating all the sausage. I was in ketosis with her a lot and was probably eating around 50-80 grams of carbs on average. My first child wants carbs more. I did a Brewer diet with grains with him.

I would like ds to get more protein and fat but I do think some people do better on more carbs. (I do agree that you can live without them though). I am thinking of trying some coconut flour panckes (with lots of eggs in them) and such with him. I am on the GAPS diet so I can eat stuff like that too. He seem to have meltdowns and ask for sweet things constantly lately so I am going to try upping his fat and protein for a while and see if that helps.

[bella_stranger]

I haven't the time to read this whole thread--yet. I definitely will though because I am raising a fairly primalish 3yr old. She still gets some junk, sweets, and grains, if we're at other peoples homes, but when it's just me cooking, she'll eat really healthily. She also loves soups and broth, which is curious to me because I used to hate them as a child.. who like soup when you know about pizza? haha