"you need to say you're sorry!"

[Oliver'sMom]

I know there have been a lot of posts about this topic, but I thought I'd bring it up again anyway

There is a family with a little boy (about 2.5) who is in our same playgroup. Without fail, this kid wails on my kids face everytime they get together. He'll slap his face, throw a truck at his face, hit his face with a rake, etc.. I try to watch this little boy like a hawk when he's near my ds, but I never seem to be fast enough. I always catch it in action. Out of the blue, he'll "snap" and just start beating on ds. It is usually over a toy or something, but the little boy never asks for the toy, he'll just come up, hit ds, then take the toy. That's his method of choice

My main issue is how his mother handles it. She runs over very dramatically and says in a really high pitched voice "what happened?!" I then tell her exactly what happened. Then she says "well then ---- you need to say you're sorry!" He of course is not sorry! Why does he have to say he's sorry?! There is no attention given to the fact that my kid is bleeding, or bruised...just "sorry" and walk away .

The mother has mentioned that she took her ds to get "energy work" to work on his aggression. I guess it's some kind of rai key (sp?) treatment. I guess it's good that they're aware of the problem and they're trying to work on it, but it still seems to be avoiding the actual problem, you know what I mean?

I'm done with this playgroup. Ds without fail has a huge meltdown every time we come home from playing with this group of people, and understandably so. What stinks though is that this family is in our circle of friends so we see them quite often even out of the playgroup setting.

Should I avoid them completely? I've tried asking the mother if she had any suggestions that me or ds could do to help prevent these outbursts, but she always says it's because he's teething. I don't really know what else to do. I've told ds he doesn't have to play with him and that no one should hit him. He doesn't have to tolerate that. Ds doesn't play with him, and is infact terrified of him, but this little boy keeps coming back.

What would you do? I'm spent, personally. I'm almost to the point of just getting a new circle of friends

[Oliver'sMom]

hmmm, on second thought, I think I this would have been more suitable to post in parenting...

[Wild Lupine]

Well, I was going to suggest avoiding them until the boy outgrows this stage, but it doesn't sound like that's possible.

This is a stage, and there's no real magic bullet to stop 2 year olds from hitting and pushing. When kids are in this stage the only thing that works is just constant supervision, being right next to the child and physically stopping them every time they aim to hit, push, bite, or whatever the flavor of the day is. And not taking them out at nap time, when they're hungry, etc...

It sounds like the mom needs to be told she must supervise her son more closely; I don't know how you go about doing that! It would be nice if she could figure it out on her own, but it sounds like she's clueless about how to handle her son's behavior.

If you must be with them, then you may need to be the supervisor (i.e. protector of your son). You can shadow your son and get between him and the other little boy so the other boy has no chance to get near your son. Or you can pull your son to safety whenever needed, just by picking him up. This is of course, no fun for you and you'd be justified in reducing contact for a while.

[ilovemygirl]

Originally Posted by Oliver'sMom

Ds doesn't play with him, and is infact terrified of him, but this little boy keeps coming back.

Why on earth would you purposely force your son into a situation where he is terrified?
I know from previous threads that I'm considered a total B@#ch for this but I NEVER bring dd to playdates where there is a child that has known consistent hitting issues that are not being dealt with. I can't see the point. I'm miserable because I can't do anything but worry about my dd getting hit and dd is miserable because she is either being hit or has me attached to her and can't have any fun. If you can't flat out tell her to supervise her kid better and expect that she will actually do it than I would suggest you stay away.

[GoBecGo]

1) perhaps she feels he needs to learn to SAY sorry because it is a useful social lubricant (good manners) and is one of many ways to open the ideas about FEELING sorry and ACTING sorry into general awareness, especially when kids are very young and just beginning to "get" empathy and not hurting others, &

2) have you considered that taking your kid to play with someone who has drawn blood from him several times might make him wonder why YOU are not protecting him? It isn't another toddler or that toddler's mother's job to keep your child safe. It is your job.

To be honest you sound more annoyed at what she ISN'T doing than what she is doing. Asking her son to apologise seems inadequate to you, would you feel better if she stopped doing even that? 2 year olds (and 3 year olds, 4 year olds, and even 9, 13, 29 year olds) hit each other. If i was the other mother i'd keep my son home if i knew he was aggressive today due to teething pain, but maybe she feels getting out and about benefits him more. Anyway, what she SHOULD do is irrelevant. You can only control what YOU and to a lesser extent your son do.

[creekprincess]

personal I would avoid the situation for awhile and try again in a few months if ti is still happening I'd find a new play group with more like-minded people.

I have had similar issues with a play group we go to there is a child who is extremely mean to all the other children and is forced to say I am sorry and that is the end of it. I dont do much with that group anymore because of that and also because it seems I have a very different view on parenting and ...I know this sounds bad but....I don't want my DC to pick up on some of the actions, vocab, and such from these other children.

Sorry this is happened to your DC.

[Oliver'sMom]

You're right, I am upset at what ISN'T being done, and I know I can't control that. I can only control my actions. I will no longer be taking ds to this playgroup.

The reason why I've let it gone on for so long is that ds's best friends are in this group and he begs to go every week. This one little boy is the only problem. I have his friends over to our house regularly without this little boy, but whenever we're invited to their houses, this little boy is there. So this is going to cause some hurt feelings between friends, but really at this point I don't care, and my ds's safety and well-being are most important.

I guess now my question is, how do I go about explaining why we're no longer going to playgroup or other social gatherings with this circle of friends? I don't want any hurt feelings or drama.

[eirual]

Since mom's doing little more than saying "sorry", could you try stepping in and guiding the other boy through how he should go about getting a toy?

I don't see that as stepping on anyone's parenting toes. I see that as a member of the community helping guide a child. Now if you got bossy or punitive, that's taking it too far, but to gently suggest an alternative and offer to help him work through the situation might help.

Honestly, my DS was that 2 yo who went and punched people instead of saying "hello". I worked a lot on that with him though, we talked about why he did it (often because he wanted to play with them) and I helped him find more appropriate ways to communicate that than hitting. Now I wouldn't say DS was/is a brute by anymeans, he's generally sweet and outgoing. Sometimes I have no idea what drives his behaviour but when I probe a bit there's always some skewed childish logic for it. We talk about how to handle things differently next time and when next time rolls around we focus on what we learned from last time.

Anyway you'd give some positive interaction with him a shot? Take initiative and invite him to play.

I can totally see though, how this is not your responsibility, but the other parent's. If I didn't feel I could change the situation I would totally stop subjecting my child to being another child's punching bag at playgroup and would play other situations by ear. If the other family has the oportunity to spoil the outting, I'd avoid them, if not I'd deal with it on a per-issue basis.

Good luck!

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

1) perhaps she feels he needs to learn to SAY sorry because it is a useful social lubricant (good manners) and is one of many ways to open the ideas about FEELING sorry and ACTING sorry into general awareness, especially when kids are very young and just beginning to "get" empathy and not hurting others, &

2) have you considered that taking your kid to play with someone who has drawn blood from him several times might make him wonder why YOU are not protecting him? It isn't another toddler or that toddler's mother's job to keep your child safe. It is your job.

To be honest you sound more annoyed at what she ISN'T doing than what she is doing. Asking her son to apologise seems inadequate to you, would you feel better if she stopped doing even that? 2 year olds (and 3 year olds, 4 year olds, and even 9, 13, 29 year olds) hit each other. If i was the other mother i'd keep my son home if i knew he was aggressive today due to teething pain, but maybe she feels getting out and about benefits him more. Anyway, what she SHOULD do is irrelevant. You can only control what YOU and to a lesser extent your son do.

I agree. I'm also a mom who has her toddlers apologize- even if they don't feel it. It's not always about what we feel when we interact with others- sometimes you also have to consider other peoples' feelings. And it can help soothe others after a wound to hear, "I'm sorry." That doesn't mean you just leave it at words- I think parents should also teach their children to consider others and empathize.
And I really agree that if your son is afraid and the situation isn't improving, I would not return to the playgroup. You can't control how the other mother deals with her son's difficult stage, just how often your little one is exposed.

[Oliver'sMom]

Thanks for all of the suggestions!

Unfortunately, I've tried interacting positively with this little boy by saying "I see you're really upset, and you'd really like to play with this toy. I'm sure Ollie will share if you ask him if you could have a turn." This always ends with the little boy bursting in tears, running to his mom, and his mom saying "what happened??!!" in her usual high pitched tone.

I've also tried sitting with ds constantly and creating a sort of barrier between him and the little boy. However, this kid will chuck things from across the room at ds.

There's really no way of avoiding disaster anymore, so I'm just going to call it quits for awhile until this little boy has outgrown this stage.

[boheime]

Has anyone said to this little boy that his actions hurt your son? If my child were to hurt another child, I would 1. Ask the child if s/he was okay and then 2. point out to my child that their action (and name it) had hurt the other child, that the child was very upset, etc. and that it isn't okay to hurt other people. We might even talk about ways to help the other child feel better. I would not force a meaningless apology (which amounts to a lie in my eyes). After that I would be shadowing my young child to prevent it from happening again.

As it is, we are generally on the receiving end. There have been certain families we have avoided because honestly, my kids don't enjoy being hurt or beat up; they shouldn't have to be. I know that isn't always a popular view. I've been asked how the offending child will learn proper behavior if they aren't given the chance to be around other kids. Frankly, that's not my problem. My job is to protect my children and help them in their learning and paths. If a parent isn't stepping in and helping with the situation and preventing it, I have no plans to subject my family to it. We even avoid playgroups where I know the parents yell at or are sarcastic to their young children. It isn't because I'm being judgmental; it's because it stresses our family out, and we don't enjoy being around that.

[Latte Mama]

Originally Posted by Oliver'sMom

I guess now my question is, how do I go about explaining why we're no longer going to playgroup or other social gatherings with this circle of friends? I don't want any hurt feelings or drama.

The mom is obviously not worried about you or your sons feelings. I'd tell the truth. That every single time you go to playgroup, your child gets hurt and you need to wait it out a few months until her kid gets past this stage. You can soften it by saying you *understand* kids can go through hitting stages, blah blah. You don't have to sound like your blaming her or anything like that even though she really should be supervising her child more closely (don't say that part of course).

Originally Posted by Oliver'sMom

I've also tried sitting with ds constantly and creating a sort of barrier between him and the little boy. However, this kid will chuck things from across the room at ds.

.

Reading stuff like this gives me palpitations for what I have to look forward to , yikes.

[mamaofthree]

ok, it takes a lot of guts to come out and say something to the mom, but maybe you need too? it sucks that her child is targeting your child. does he behave this way with all the kids or at least some of them? does your child come across as a target?
a few years ago we were part of a group where a child was always really agressive, none of the moms wanted to say anything, so we put up with this family for a long time. finally when she (the mom) got mad at my son for not wanting to play with her child i cracked. i told her that we (my family) didn't want to play with her child because he was mean. and that all her excuses about him being super smart and no being able to tolerate kids who couldn't speak properly and kids who couldn't or wouldn't follow his direction and his aggessive behavior was all bull. she either needed to watch her kid, or she could go. yes i was mean, i had had it! lol i was sick of not going and hanging out. i was tired of having to be constantly on guard for my kids safety, so that he couldn't play and i couldn't visit. it sucked all around. and the other moms felt the same way. it was a relief when they stayed home, the kids played nicely, the moms visited, there was rarely an issue with aggressive behavior.
i am not saying you should start some rumor mill, but do other families have issues with this child? are people not saying anything because they don't want to be rude? if so maybe having a united front and talking to her about her child might help? it seems a shame that this one child would keep you and your child from having a good time with friends. we all worry so much about hurting someones feeling, that we forget we also have feelings. not that you should go out of your way to be mean, but just be up front... maybe? i know it is hard. i (and my kids) put up with stuff for a long time before i got pissed enough to finally say thing.

[Mizelenius]

I think avoiding the playgroup is a good idea for now. Playgroups, IMO, are overrated. I think one-on-one with other children is much better, and even then, not necessary at a young age.

RE: Forced apologies . . .no, I would never force my child. In this case, I think the mom of this child should either make sure that her child CANNOT hurt another child. If she can't, SHE should be the one to stop going, not you . . .but it's not like you can make that decision.

The reason I don't believe in forced apologies is because I have heard even adults think that just by saying the word "sorry" it fixes everything. It does not. Forcing another person to say something will never, ever, ever teach empathy. In fact, I've noticed it usually just makes a person more resentful, because most of us-- esp. children-- are self-centered, so we are grumbling about what has happened to us (we're being forced to do something) vs. what we've done to the other person.

The thing that has works magnificently in my own home (I have 3 girls: 7,4, and 2) is when someone does something to another child, I am the one to apologize to the victim. I rush over and say, "Oh my goodness! Are you OK? I am so sorry that happened to you!" I do this if it's my own child with my own child, or to another child that is a guest. 9 times out of 10, the person who did the hurtful act (with words or actions) joins in with me, seeing if the child is OK. If they don't-- it's OK. Most of the time children DO feel bad when they've made a mistake, and this way (not forcing) helps them actually be able to focus MORE on the victim, instead of feeling guilty/angry or whatever.

It seems to work. Even my 2 yo apologizes and I've never in my life forced her to. She not only apologizes, but she tries to find a way to comfort the person, which to me, is actually the far, far, far more important action vs. resentfully saying, "Sorry!"

[ssh]

Making her child apologize is only giving him the impression that words can make up for the behavior. The only useful apology is a sincere spontaneous one, and 2.5 year olds are usually able to do that yet. She should pick her kid up and leave every time he is violent, and say "if you can't play nice you can't play". You can't really do anything about her reactions, and if she doesn't show a stronger intolerance for the violence it might not go away very quickly. I would just tell the truth to your friends. Say "My DS gets hurt every time 'thischild' is around. We'd love to get together with you at a safer time/place." With your DS gone this kid may choose someone else to pick on. It's probable that the other moms have noticed that this boy has been hurting your child, so they should understand that you have to teach your DS not to let people hurt him. Until your DS is old enough to shout "Stop!!" I'd probably find myself shouting 'stop hurting DS' at this child. We've never really been in this situation though, so I don't know. When my DD was that age she was really loud, high energy and very friendly. Since the only like minded moms with a playgroup we knew of had quiet sit and color kind of LOs in it we only went to two play group sessions. My DD's exuberance and excitedness seemed to intimidate the quieter kids. So she got her social interaction from random loud busy LOs at the playground. At almost 4 she does fine in a group of kids now.

[mama2mygirl]

This child has literally made your child bleed? I agree that two-year-old hit often but that seems totally over the top.
I think you should just find a new playgroup.

[Oliver'sMom]

My ds and this little boy are the only boys in the playgroup. There are about five other girls. None of whom have much trouble with this little boy. I don't know if this is why ds is being targeted, but I can't think of any other reason. Kind of an "alpha male" thing. My ds is quite large for his age and this little boy is quite small. Ds is by no means passive, and it quite assertive about his needs/wants. He went through a hitting phase when he was around 18mo, but has since learned to talk quite well and negotiate with his friends. Him seeing this little boy not really following any of the social rules he's familiar with is very upsetting of course.

The other mothers have kind of laughed about "how vicious" this child is, but they never seemed overly concerned when my ds gets hurt. If anything, I feel like I'm looked down upon by calling the mother out and saying "your child just slapped my child in the face repeatedly." It's almost like they expect me to act like nothing happened and to just let my kid get hurt.

The more I think about it though, the more I'm just completely done with the whole thing. I think I'll email the mom telling her we're not going anymore because of xyz... I really don't see any way around it. If I just don't show up without an explanation and avoid other gatherings, who knows what they'd come up with for a reason.

[eirual]

Originally Posted by Oliver'sMom

The more I think about it though, the more I'm just completely done with the whole thing. I think I'll email the mom telling her we're not going anymore because of xyz... I really don't see any way around it. If I just don't show up without an explanation and avoid other gatherings, who knows what they'd come up with for a reason.

Personally, I've never been a fan of the dynamics that "play groups" create.

If you want to avoid the blame game (which I can see how you'd want to go either way) you could mention instead that you feel your son isn't ready to handle the social situations that arrise, so you're going to just take a break (or take some time together, or arrange smaller meetings with friends) or somethig. If you're doing what's develpmnetally appropriate for your son, no one can point any fingers back and it may help to avoid the drama that blatantly stating your reasoning might cause. Or maybe this is your chance to let the mom know that her child's actions are effecting others and send her the message without personally calling her on it.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by eirual

If you want to avoid the blame game (which I can see how you'd want to go either way) you could mention instead that you feel your son isn't ready to handle the social situations that arrise, so you're going to just take a break (or take some time together, or arrange smaller meetings with friends) or somethig.

I completely agree. Naming a child is only going to make people uncomfortable, even if they agree with you. Just sound proactive about your own son instead of reactive, you know? It's better to say too little than too much. You can't take back what you say . . .

[Mirrormonkey]

I have the same problem, but it is my son who is being too rough. Just today a little girl tripped over him by accident and he tackled her! My ds is 3.5 this girl is 2.5. I have noticed more and more that my ds lashes out aggressively and it drives me nuts and is incredibly upsetting. According to the playcare/preschool people, he does not act this way when I am not there, only when I am.
I am not sure why he is acting this way, my husband and I do not hit, I admit that I yell but that hardly affects him.
We are expecting our second baby in Feb and I am wondering if maybe all this acting out is in response to his knowing Mommy is having another baby.
And I agree, the 'say sorry' routine is useless. I have tried comforting the child he has been aggressive with and ignoring him. I just want to figure out how to get across to him that being rough is not nice. Oh and he is not rough at home either.