Anyone surprised by who does/doesn't circ? - Page 2

[jessjgh1]

crazy... I think

[KristyDi]

I volunteer in the church nursery in the baby room. I find that about half the boys are intact and you can never tell which half till you change the diaper.

[A&A]

I'm really surprised that my sister and her very pro-circ (at first) dh left their son intact. But I'm really glad they did, of course!

[ursaminor]

This post reminded me - even at The Farm in Tennessee, home of some of America's first HB midwives, circumcisions were sometime preformed. There was one page on circ in my mother's old copy of 'Spiritual Midwifery', the page was omitted in my later copy.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I dont socialize or talk to anyone other than close family so I dont know who does and does not circ. But when I run across a post by a long time MDC mom who circed I am always surprised and saddened

[outlier]

Now I'm curious: ursaminor, do you remember what Spiritual Midwifery had to say about circ?

[BlessedMommy2006]

Yeah, it definitely is surprising who does and doesn't circ. I have known of mamas who were not crunchy at all (formula feeding, scheduled C-sections, no co-sleeping, etc.) who did not circ and have known of very crunchy mamas who did. It's important that we do not give people the impression that not circ'ing is a "crunchy" thing. It's for everybody!

[BlessedMommy2006]

Originally Posted by ursaminor

This post reminded me - even at The Farm in Tennessee, home of some of America's first HB midwives, circumcisions were sometime preformed. There was one page on circ in my mother's old copy of 'Spiritual Midwifery', the page was omitted in my later copy.

They performed the circs AT THE farm? That is surprising.

[ursaminor]

Originally Posted by noodsma

Now I'm curious: ursaminor, do you remember what Spiritual Midwifery had to say about circ?

Yes, this was from an early 80's edition, i believe, but basically it said "circumcisions are preformed here at the Farm in a respectful, peaceful manner..." something to that effect. It was one page dedicated to circ in the entire book. All the nude male infants in the book were intact tho. In my newer edition the only mention of circ is in the back of the book in a list of "mother friendly birth initiatives" that states "discourage non religious circ"
I brought up circ and The Farm to a long time nocirc'er during a group dinner years ago, and was told that Ina May herself preformed circumcisions, and in fact had her own sons circumcised. Perhaps, there is some one who was at the Farm back in the day, who can confirm this?

[ursaminor]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

Yeah, it definitely is surprising who does and doesn't circ. I have known of mamas who were not crunchy at all (formula feeding, scheduled C-sections, no co-sleeping, etc.) who did not circ and have known of very crunchy mamas who did. It's important that we do not give people the impression that not circ'ing is a "crunchy" thing. It's for everybody!

True that

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by ursaminor

One year while tabling at a nocirc event, a couple from India approached our booth with their young son in tow - apparently they had him circ'ed because they didnt want him to 'feel different in the locker room".

This is actually a common cultural pattern you'll see with American cultural/socioeconomic/demographic/regional groups as well, and it really applies to a lot of stuff we associate with Mothering. It goes, chronologically, something like this:

(1) Most everyone does X (breastfeeds, cosleeps, has midwife-attended homebirths, eats whole foods, leaves their sons intact)

(2) The elites stop doing X (and perhaps substitute Y, which could be circing, formula feeding, hospital birthing, eating processed foods, etc.) because some wrongheaded "expert" or group of experts say it is "better" or more "modern" or more "convenient".

(3) For a while, we find poorer, lower status people doing X while affluent, well-educated elites look down their noses at people who do X.

(4) This starts to really make the lower status groups feel insecure, and so as soon as they acquire enough economic status to be able to manage Y (that is, they can afford formula, having their babies at the hospital, buying processed foods, or circing) they flock to emulate the high status groups.

(5) Before long, educated people in the high status groups start to realise that they were off base about X--that in fact, X is much healthier than Y.

(6) We arrive at the current state of affairs, where things are almost fully reversed from stage 3.

If you think about all those individual things I mentioned, the process really holds up amazingly well, and is kind of tragicomic in a way. I mean, if we describe someone today who had their baby at home and sleeps with (intact) baby, eats minimally processed whole foods like brown bread and rice and beans, breastfeeds, we would I think picture someone at least middle class in most cases and probably with a college education or often postgraduate degrees (I realise this is a generalisation that doesn't always apply, but I'm just getting at what we picture as most likely), and is not likely to live in the rural South. Whereas a few decades ago, if you laid out the same descriptors, a poor rural Southerner living in a rundown shack would be the first image that would come to people's minds.

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by ursaminor

I brought up circ and The Farm to a long time nocirc'er during a group dinner years ago, and was told that Ina May herself preformed circumcisions, and in fact had her own sons circumcised. Perhaps, there is some one who was at the Farm back in the day, who can confirm this?

Wow. As someone who occasionally likes to brag (among people like this who know whom I'm talking about) that Stephen and Ina May Gaskin stayed at my house for a few days (this would have been in 2003 or so), I'm really floored (and disappointed) to hear this!

[ursaminor]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

This is actually a common cultural pattern you'll see with American cultural/socioeconomic/demographic/regional groups as well, and it really applies to a lot of stuff we associate with Mothering. It goes, chronologically, something like this:

(1) Most everyone does X (breastfeeds, cosleeps, has midwife-attended homebirths, eats whole foods, leaves their sons intact)

(2) The elites stop doing X (and perhaps substitute Y, which could be circing, formula feeding, hospital birthing, eating processed foods, etc.) because some wrongheaded "expert" or group of experts say it is "better" or more "modern" or more "convenient".

(3) For a while, we find poorer, lower status people doing X while affluent, well-educated elites look down their noses at people who do X.

(4) This starts to really make the lower status groups feel insecure, and so as soon as they acquire enough economic status to be able to manage Y (that is, they can afford formula, having their babies at the hospital, buying processed foods, or circing) they flock to emulate the high status groups.

(5) Before long, educated people in the high status groups start to realise that they were off base about X--that in fact, X is much healthier than Y.

(6) We arrive at the current state of affairs, where things are almost fully reversed from stage 3.

If you think about all those individual things I mentioned, the process really holds up amazingly well, and is kind of tragicomic in a way. I mean, if we describe someone today who had their baby at home and sleeps with (intact) baby, eats minimally processed whole foods like brown bread and rice and beans, breastfeeds, we would I think picture someone at least middle class in most cases and probably with a college education or often postgraduate degrees (I realise this is a generalisation that doesn't always apply, but I'm just getting at what we picture as most likely), and is not likely to live in the rural South. Whereas a few decades ago, if you laid out the same descriptors, a poor rural Southerner living in a rundown shack would be the first image that would come to people's minds.

Well said. Circ became something the elite or educated class adopted, it slowly fazed into mainstream, and now (perhaps) educated parents (or anyone with a little curiosity and the internet) are more commonly rejecting the procedure. I can only hope, as we move away from being a genital cutting society, that we dont forget the past.

[ursaminor]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

Wow. As someone who occasionally likes to brag (among people like this who know whom I'm talking about) that Stephen and Ina May Gaskin stayed at my house for a few days (this would have been in 2003 or so), I'm really floored (and disappointed) to hear this!

I guess she acted as a Mohel. I dont remember his name but she was close with an OB, I believe, during her early midwifery days - perhaps that is where she learned to preform it. Somehow I doubt circ are still done at The Farm, that was in the mid (early?) 70's. Maybe things have changed.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I wouldnt be surprised at all if it is still done there. The circ rate here in TN is very high thought I dont have the numbers. It may be they feel the way they do them is less painful.

I had my ds at the only Birth Center even close to me and they didnt do them there and told you that it wasnt medically needed and the mw who asked me said bother her ds's where intact but if I wanted it done they had a Dr. who did them they used