Has anyone seen the movie Expelled: No Intellegence Allowed? - Page 2

[CrunchyChristianMama]

I glanced over the website recommended by the last couple posters; specifically at the page about the professor I know. I would have to say that the analysis is very one-sided and there are many areas of his persecution that have been left out. I know a lot about his case personally as my husband (who was in law school at the time) did some clerking work for the attorney who represented him and I attended a University near ISU where he came to speak. The persecution by the professors even at my university where he wasn't even a professor was intense! I ended up writing several letters to the editor concerning it and the high level of unprofessional conduct I observed in regards to him.

I don't doubt that the movie may over emphasize some things. I don't doubt that it is trying to get the viewer to agree with it using propaganda messages. But I also don't have a doubt in my mind that professors around the country experience academic persecution for having a view that is outside the generally accepted view.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Mary

I haven't seen the movie, but would recommend checking out expelledexposed.com.

Thank you.

[caitlinlea]

But I also don't have a doubt in my mind that professors around the country experience academic persecution for having a view that is outside the generally accepted view.

Evie, I agree with you on this point. Sadly, I think this kind of persecution is displayed in many areas, not just in science and religion.

[oddeebean]

Saw it. Thought it was hilarious.

There is no science in intelligent design, and it absolutely baffles my mind when people try to treat it as a scientific topic. Its a religious concept that people try to disguise as a scientific one. The movie lost me immediately when they played that card. Please, go study religion, philosophy, and the humanities. Fantastic. Teach at a religious school even: no problems there. Leave science and the scientific method to actual scientific concepts please. This documentary just reinforced my beliefs in that.

Intelligent design isn't suppressed ruthlessly by scientists, it full stop does not hold up to the scientific method, thus it is easily dismissed. Its not a conspiracy, and speaking as an anthropologist in academia, its laughable. I have plenty of other things to do, like teaching students what a theory actually is, then to join in a vast conspiracy to suppress intelligent design "academics." There are tons of religious scientists the film choose to ignore, the idea of science vs. religion is baloney.

But I also don't have a doubt in my mind that professors around the country experience academic persecution for having a view that is outside the generally accepted view.

I agree, but probably not for the same reasons. Claiming you are being persecuted for believing in intelligent design is like being outraged that a history professor taught that the Holocaust never happened and then filmed a documentary about evil historians perpetuating the myth of the Holocaust. Its that absurd of a concept. Believing in intelligent design is not just outside the generally accepted view of academia, its galaxies away. Light years. Its like applying for a job teaching about Christian beliefs in a Christian school, and then spending your entire career writing about your own atheism.

[blizzard_babe]

As to the "suppression/repression/persecution" argument...

Isn't it possible that the religious are suppressing/repressing/persecuting secularists, and that secularists are doing the same to the religious? I can think of examples in both directions.

It's not always a cut-and-dry, one-way persecution.

[caitlinlea]

Intelligent design isn't suppressed ruthlessly by scientists, it full stop does not hold up to the scientific method, thus it is easily dismissed.

Isn't it possible that the religious are suppressing/repressing/persecuting secularists, and that secularists are doing the same to the religious? I can think of examples in both directions.

I can think of examples both ways as well....I think a thread on this topic would be interesting and might give the entire spectrum more understanding of each other.

[genifer]

I can think of examples both ways as well....I think a thread on this topic would be interesting and might give the entire spectrum more understanding of each other.

I was just thinking about this actually. I was interested in how nonchristians feel about them being ostracised by christians and what examples they had of personal experiences.

I also was kind of thinking about opening the ID as a science debate here. I personally do believe science and ID go hand in hand. It all depends on ones worldview, what coloured glasses one is wearing.

Alas, I dont think Im brave enough to see a debate like that thru tho, lol.

[Purple Sage]

So what is the ID science? I must have missed it in the movie if they presented any scientific evidence for ID.

I'm not buying the movie's claim that there's a vast conspiracy to suppress ID science. I think that the majority of people would love to see some real scientific evidence of a higher power - that would be so amazing that I can't imagine even an atheist who wouldn't be fascinated with the discovery.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by genifer

I was just thinking about this actually. I was interested in how nonchristians feel about them being ostracised by christians and what examples they had of personal experiences.

I also was kind of thinking about opening the ID as a science debate here. I personally do believe science and ID go hand in hand. It all depends on ones worldview, what coloured glasses one is wearing.

Alas, I dont think Im brave enough to see a debate like that thru tho, lol.

This is it, really. If you believe the Bible is true literally, then I could see how you could try to make science back it up. And if you don't believe it, then it's very easy to see that science does not support the creation story in the Bible.

I can see what mainstream science has found and apply it to my own spiritual beliefs, too, and there is no disconnect at all. The more science discovers, the more my own beliefs make sense to me. You don't have to be an atheist to accept mainstream scientific theories and accepted facts. There are many, many highly spiritual people who feel there is no big struggle between science and religion.

But if your worldview is that the Biblical story of creation is literally true, then yeah, there's a huge disconnect there and thus a major conflict. So are there any ID people who are not coming from the worldview that the Bible is literally true?

[genifer]

The more science discovers, the more my own beliefs make sense to me

Purplesage I say the same thing. Two people looking at the same evidence and seeing two completely different things. The geologic column, for example, looks to me like rock layers laid down by a major catastrophic worldwide flood. But a secular scientist or the average joe on the street sees evolution. I dont believe evolution in the sense that one creature evolves into something completely different. I never have altho I did struggle with the 'millions of years' stuff we're force fed in mainstream media and education. I dont anymore tho. I dont believe we can be certain that the earth IS millions of years old and the universe billions of years old. I dont believe there is evidence to support it, or I dont see it. Yet I look at the same evidence everyone else does. I dont believe the human race or any other creature started off as single celled organisms in a primordial ooze. I dont even believe in the big bang as secular scientists would have us believe it. I do believe it happened exactly the way Genesis says it did.

So are there any ID people who are not coming from the worldview that the Bible is literally true?

There are LOTS of them. I even found a muslim site that denies evolultion. I didnt look at it in depth but they were definately ID and there are jewish ID'ers, people from all over the spectrum who are believe in Intellegent Design. Even agnostics who will say that life as we know it couldnt have come from nothing and that an intellegent designer had to be involved. Im not one of them. I do believe the Genesis account of creation is 100% accurate and a literal account of how things went down.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by genifer

Purplesage I say the same thing. Two people looking at the same evidence and seeing two completely different things. The geologic column, for example, looks to me like rock layers laid down by a major catastrophic worldwide flood. But a secular scientist or the average joe on the street sees evolution. I dont believe evolution in the sense that one creature evolves into something completely different. I never have altho I did struggle with the 'millions of years' stuff we're force fed in mainstream media and education. I dont anymore tho. I dont believe we can be certain that the earth IS millions of years old and the universe billions of years old. I dont believe there is evidence to support it, or I dont see it. Yet I look at the same evidence everyone else does. I dont believe the human race or any other creature started off as single celled organisms in a primordial ooze. I dont even believe in the big bang as secular scientists would have us believe it. I do believe it happened exactly the way Genesis says it did.

Without Genesis to guide you, though, what would you believe? You do see that a belief in the literal Bible is shading how you interpret things, and you're making everything you see fit the beliefs that you already hold, beliefs that the scientific proof does not corroborate unless you hold those beliefs. So if you could not point to Genesis as the foundation of how you see science, what would you see?

What I feel I'm doing, however, is not exactly the same. I don't believe in the creation myths from my religion as the literal truth, so I don't have to try to make scientific evidence fit my worldview. Science, instead, gives new life and perspective to the myths - myths that were never meant to be taken literally in the first place.

There are LOTS of them. I even found a muslim site that denies evolultion. I didnt look at it in depth but they were definately ID and there are jewish ID'ers, people from all over the spectrum who are believe in Intellegent Design. Even agnostics who will say that life as we know it couldnt have come from nothing and that an intellegent designer had to be involved. Im not one of them. I do believe the Genesis account of creation is 100% accurate and a literal account of how things went down.

I don't think the Universe came from nothing, either, and I don't think life as we know it came from nothing. It's just that I don't see evolution as being opposed to the belief that the Universe and Life came from something.

What I want to know is if there are people in the ID community who are expressing ID ideas that are not shaded by or based upon a belief in monotheistic creationism. What does that science look like?

I don't want to see science being made to fit a predetermined belief system, in other words.

[CrunchyChristianMama]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

So are there any ID people who are not coming from the worldview that the Bible is literally true?

Yes, there are. And some of them do not hold a monotheistic worldview either. I will do some digging for old resources I have written by some of them, but I make no promises as I think they were saved on my old computer and I'm currently having to use my DH's laptop as mine is out of order. :P

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

Without Genesis to guide you, though, what would you believe? You do see that a belief in the literal Bible is shading how you interpret things, and you're making everything you see fit the beliefs that you already hold, beliefs that the scientific proof does not corroborate unless you hold those beliefs. So if you could not point to Genesis as the foundation of how you see science, what would you see?

What I feel I'm doing, however, is not exactly the same. I don't believe in the creation myths from my religion as the literal truth, so I don't have to try to make scientific evidence fit my worldview. Science, instead, gives new life and perspective to the myths - myths that were never meant to be taken literally in the first place.

I don't want to see science being made to fit a predetermined belief system, in other words.

To tell a Christian who believes the Bible to look at evidence without the lens of the Bible is like telling you to look at something without your eyes. If you believed something was the inspired Word of God, you wouldn't be able to look at anything without it coloring your view either.

I think everyone looks at science though a predetermined belief system. Yours is that the account given in the Bible is simply myth and that the scientists that came before you got it right. You are looking at things through what you have learned from them, while we are looking at through what we have learned from the Bible.

[genifer]

To tell a Christian who believes the Bible to look at evidence without the lens of the Bible is like telling you to look at something without your eyes. If you believed something was the inspired Word of God, you wouldn't be able to look at anything without it coloring your view either.

That is absolutely true. How I would have liked to have put it. There is so much more to it as well tho, I just dont know how to explain it right now.

[caitlinlea]

To tell a Christian who believes the Bible to look at evidence without the lens of the Bible is like telling you to look at something without your eyes. If you believed something was the inspired Word of God, you wouldn't be able to look at anything without it coloring your view either.

Yes, this makes sense to me, and despite the fact that I am not religious I think I understand where you are coming from.

I think everyone looks at science though a predetermined belief system. Yours is that the account given in the Bible is simply myth and that the scientists that came before you got it right. You are looking at things through what you have learned from them, while we are looking at through what we have learned from the Bible.

I don't entirely agree with this - the big difference is you are basing your beliefs, your entire way of thinking and living your lives, on the premise that the Bible is truth. Believing the stories in the Bible to be true requires a certain leap of faith, of wanting and desiring to believe. It also requires taking someone else's word for events having taken place in the past (and often that person's word was written generations after supposed events took place, leaving a lot of room for doubt). It requires trust in people you never knew who chose the books that compile the Bible - what were their motives and how do you know? I realize there are plenty of religious/spiritual people who don't take the Bible as literal truth, obviously. People with a more secular view are shaping their beliefs on discoveries/events/etc that can be traced to a definitive source, or experienced directly with one's own senses and ability to rationalize. And despite how it may sometimes seem, many are willing to acknowledge the fallibility of their beliefs!

Even agnostics who will say that life as we know it couldnt have come from nothing and that an intellegent designer had to be involved. Im not one of them.

Yes, but if we have a creator, isn't the same question raised of something coming from nothing?

I sincerely hope that came across okay - I honestly desire to understand where some of you are coming from in your beliefs. I define myself as an atheist but I am not closed off to religious belief systems and I am open to the possibility of my worldview changing. I do not wish to come across like I have the cornerstone on the "truth" - I've met plenty of atheists and fundamentalist theists alike where there is no room for discussion and it isn't an environment I wish to participate in, or perpetuate.

Sorry, Genifer, that we've gotten a bit off-topic!

[genifer]

Yes, but if we have a creator, isn't the same question raised of something coming from nothing?

Not necessarily. The way I understand it is to understand that God created time. We are the one's who find the concept of eternity difficult to understand, we are the limited ones, not God. He is the Creator not the created. He didnt ever have a beginning. He is the one who started anything that was ever started. Ill tell you what, it did take me a long time to understand these things myself. I grew up in secular schools with the same secular science teaching. I was very reluctant to accept a literal account of genesis as a possibility for a long time. It was only when I let myself look at things from a different perspective did it click. It was an 'OoooOOoh!' kind of moment for me. All I needed was to begin to understand somethings secular science doesnt teach us. We are taught to assume millions of years and not to question it. So for a long time I couldnt. I one day decided to question it and then I began to understand things from that perspective. I still dont claim to be all knowing or have a proficient understanding but the more I look things up the more I can see clearly from that literal genesis account perspective. Thats just me tho.

Its not quite as you guys assume it is actually.

[CrunchyChristianMama]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

I sincerely hope that came across okay - I honestly desire to understand where some of you are coming from in your beliefs.

You came across just fine. I appreciate your non-combativeness!

I've heard the concept of why God didn't have to be "created" also as thinking of this universe and everything in it as inside a box. Within that box exists time, natural laws (gravity, etc.), and human understanding. God is not restrained by the box. He is outside the box and therefore not held back by the laws of this universe. Where as everything in the box had to have a starting point, God did not.

I hope that helps clarify where we're coming from.

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by Evie's Mama

To tell a Christian who believes the Bible to look at evidence without the lens of the Bible is like telling you to look at something without your eyes.

And honestly, to tell atheists to ignore scientific evidence is like telling them to think about something without using their brains.

I can't turn off my internal logic which tells me that there's no way that the earth is only a few thousand years old and there were dinosaurs on Noah's ark any more than you can turn off your faith.

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by oddeebean

Saw it. Thought it was hilarious.

There is no science in intelligent design, and it absolutely baffles my mind when people try to treat it as a scientific topic. Its a religious concept that people try to disguise as a scientific one. The movie lost me immediately when they played that card. Please, go study religion, philosophy, and the humanities. Fantastic. Teach at a religious school even: no problems there. Leave science and the scientific method to actual scientific concepts please. This documentary just reinforced my beliefs in that.

Intelligent design isn't suppressed ruthlessly by scientists, it full stop does not hold up to the scientific method, thus it is easily dismissed. Its not a conspiracy, and speaking as an anthropologist in academia, its laughable. I have plenty of other things to do, like teaching students what a theory actually is, then to join in a vast conspiracy to suppress intelligent design "academics." There are tons of religious scientists the film choose to ignore, the idea of science vs. religion is baloney.

I agree, but probably not for the same reasons. Claiming you are being persecuted for believing in intelligent design is like being outraged that a history professor taught that the Holocaust never happened and then filmed a documentary about evil historians perpetuating the myth of the Holocaust. Its that absurd of a concept. Believing in intelligent design is not just outside the generally accepted view of academia, its galaxies away. Light years. Its like applying for a job teaching about Christian beliefs in a Christian school, and then spending your entire career writing about your own atheism.

Honestly I think anyone purporting that ID SHOULD be taught in schools/universities (although I suppose religions institutions can do what they want) ought to be laughed out of academia. It's just.not.science... no matter what big words you wrap it up in, it's not.

Originally Posted by l_olive

And honestly, to tell atheists to ignore scientific evidence is like telling them to think about something without using their brains.

I can't turn off my internal logic which tells me that there's no way that the earth is only a few thousand years old and there were dinosaurs on Noah's ark any more than you can turn off your faith.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Evie's Mama

Yes, there are. And some of them do not hold a monotheistic worldview either. I will do some digging for old resources I have written by some of them, but I make no promises as I think they were saved on my old computer and I'm currently having to use my DH's laptop as mine is out of order. :P

That would be great if you can find them.

To tell a Christian who believes the Bible to look at evidence without the lens of the Bible is like telling you to look at something without your eyes. If you believed something was the inspired Word of God, you wouldn't be able to look at anything without it coloring your view either.

I think everyone looks at science though a predetermined belief system. Yours is that the account given in the Bible is simply myth and that the scientists that came before you got it right. You are looking at things through what you have learned from them, while we are looking at through what we have learned from the Bible.

I understand where you're coming from. The only thing I disagree with is the bolded part because I don't think the scientists always get it right. One thing I expect from science is for them to revise and/or recant their conclusions when new information proves them wrong.

I guess the major difference between my spiritual views and creationists' is that I don't claim to have a historical written divinely inspired account of how life began. So learning about new scientific findings on the origins of the Universe only works to give me new insights into the nature of the Divine, something I never expect to fully understand in this lifetime.

About God making something from nothing: I think the Divine function within the same laws as the rest of the Universe....They can't make anything from nothing. So that means that I think 'what is' always has existed in one form or another. I can't prove that any more than a creationist can prove the God created the Universe out of nothing, but I'd love for science to one day be able to explain it. The day that science can explain it, then it's called 'science' - until then, it's just a spiritual belief.

[genifer]

Purplesage, I really really appreciate the respect you give in your posts. You dont belittle anyone and you really seem to listen. I know that all sides of all these arguments can get nasty and unwilling to listen, even me sometimes, but in this discussion I appreciate how respectful you have remained. Thanks.

I think its difficult to explain these things bc its as if we are speaking different languages. I was just thinking this morning as I was dropping off the kids how everything in life, how we percieve things really depends on our perspective, how our experiences have coloured things for us. This is why I believe that in schools and universities they dont teach us to read the evidence and think for ourselves. I have come to realise that they teach us assumptions as if they are facts. They dont tell us how their scientific understanding came to be. They dont teach us how to read the evidence for ourselves, they basically say 'we're the professionals, let the understanding of the evidence be left to us... you are simple minded little people who wouldnt understand this stuff anyway'. I do believe a lot of scientific 'facts' are left in the textbooks long after there has been controversy about calling it fact.

Am I saying what I mean in a way that makes sense?lol. Im sure we'll get there in the end.

Also, it is a popular assumption that to believe the way I do you have to leave your brain at the door, but thats what I meant when I said its not quite as you guys think it is for me. Funny how thats assumed tho.