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Has anyone seen the movie Expelled: No Intellegence Allowed? - Page 12

post #221 of 227
Someone mentioned this site early in the thread. You can click on the names of the people "expelled" and get more of the story. Most of them weren't really even fired.

I wonder why no one in Stein's crowd goes through the paces in evolutionary biology, gets tenure and then sets the world straight? If evolution were disproved and replaced with a better theory, there would be plenty of fame and funding to follow.
post #222 of 227
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Also working against current evolutionary theory is the fossil record, which tends not to show gradual emergence of new species, but a sudden appearance; and the earliest fossils, which produce examples of all the animal phyla at the same time. Scientists keep searching for a pattern in keeping with the existing theory, instead of looking at what the actual evidence might tell them.
Here is a good PDF of a journal article which explains the science behind the Cambrian Explosion. It is short and readable. It is aimed at science teachers who need to deal with creationist arguments. It has some great questions for critical thinking at the end like why don't *any* of these species still exist if they were the product of intelligent design?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/...g/fulltext.pdf
post #223 of 227
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
I like philosophy (it was what created the scientific method, after all) it tends to be more in the business of "speculating" as opposed to "demonstrating" or "proving".
Strictly speaking, this is the opposite of what is actually the case. It is quite possible to have a philosophical, logical, or mathematical proof. But in science, it is impossible to have a proof. This is because philosophy works by both inductive a deductive reasoning, while science uses inductive reasoning.

Additionally, science at it's heart is based on philosophical principles and assumptions, like the law of non-contradiction. It cannot, therefore, be more "sure" than they are.
post #224 of 227
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It is quite possible to have a philosophical, logical, or mathematical proof. But in science, it is impossible to have a proof.
But philosophy and logic (and probably mathematics too, I don't know) rely on unprovable axioms, do they not? In which case the proof is only as good as the axiom. I don't see how that is any more certain than a scientific proof, which relies on and is only as good as its evidence.
post #225 of 227
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Originally Posted by Thao View Post
But philosophy and logic (and probably mathematics too, I don't know) rely on unprovable axioms, do they not? In which case the proof is only as good as the axiom. I don't see how that is any more certain than a scientific proof, which relies on and is only as good as its evidence.
Yes, it ALL relies on unprovable axioms. But within that, you can make a logical proof, for example. It doesn't matter if the system is "real".

OTOH, one simply can't make a scientific proof. We can say of the earth orbiting the sun - we have seen this, it seems to be happening now. We can offer an explanation (gravity). We can suggest that this same process goes on backwards and forwards in time, and throughout space.

BUT - we cannot show that our observations of the world are "real" - whereas with a logical proof it doesn't matter. We cannot absolutely connect our explanation, gravity, with the observed phenomena, whereas with a logical proof the conclusion is necessitated by the premises. And we cannot actually know that the force or gravity or other "laws" apply throughout time or space, whereas if you accept system the logical proof than the rules are always applicable.

Of course, if we depended on those kind of proofs to live, we would live very limited intellectual lives, and would probably die of starvation anyway.
post #226 of 227
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Originally Posted by orangewallflower View Post
Here is a good PDF of a journal article which explains the science behind the Cambrian Explosion. It is short and readable. It is aimed at science teachers who need to deal with creationist arguments. It has some great questions for critical thinking at the end like why don't *any* of these species still exist if they were the product of intelligent design?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/...g/fulltext.pdf
It is an interesting article. The thing is, I was not making creationist claims when I brought up the Cambrian Explosion. I was using it as an example of things which do not follow the usual outline of how organisms evolve. The article's main intent does not seem to be finding or expressing the truth about the Cambrian Explosion, but making sure creationist arguments are effectively discouraged.
[QUOTE=orangewallflower;14776262]
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Every single case of this that I have tracked has been a hoax. Every single one.
There have been a number of "footprint" hoaxes perpetrated, so I had trouble tracking down the one I was referring to. I think it is now being described as the footprints of a small, three toed dinosaur rather than a hominid.
The fossilized, apparently human femur, though, was discovered by Richard Leakey's team, and I very much doubt Leakey would be involved in a hoax intended to cast doubt on evolution.
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How in the world does this contradict evolution? Yes, it may contradict something Darwin said because he knew nothing of genes and recessive/dominant traits, but I don't see how it contradicts the idea of natural selection at all. In fact it seems to me to affirm it. Which scientists' work was dismissed?
The example of blind cave animals does not actually contradict evolution; it does contradict some well established ideas about how evolution works, and how physical traits are passed on.
Animals find their way into a completely dark cave. Over many generations, they lose their eyesight and their pigmentation. Some even no longer have eyes. What we often hear is, they no longer had any need of eyes or skin colour in complete darkness, so those traits were lost.
Logically, this should not happen. Animals are not supposed to evolve away from a characteristic when it is not needed, only when it affects their survival or their ability to reproduce. It should certainly not disappear from their genetic code.
First, there was no real survival advantage in being blind or albino, even in a dark cave. The only attempt at explaining this oddity, that I know of, came from a scientist who suggested the animals who kept their eyes might be more likely to injure them by bumping into cave walls. There is certainly no reason cave animals would, as a group - fish, salamanders, crickets, etc. - all lose their colouring.
Second, these changes, including genetic changes passed along to the next generation, seem to have occurred in response to the animals' environment. In complete darkness, they developed a gene for blindness or eyelessness, and for lack of pigment. The conventional explanation is that changes in environment affect survival. This does not apply to cave animals, who would survive just as well in the dark if they had eyes and colouration. If environment actually affects the development of hereditary traits (apart from survival issues) that affects evolutionary theory at a basic level.
Paul Kammerer was a nineteenth century scientist who did some work in this area. He found he could cause amphibians to produce young with different colouration, within a few generations, according to the colour of the parent animal's environment. He is not considered a shining light of the scientific community, but it is interesting how furious he made scientists who followed standard evolutionary theory, and how anxious they were to shut him up.
post #227 of 227
Evolutionary scientists are not furious or anxious. They are not in cahoots, there is not multi-generational conspiracy theory. They are simply exasperated by criticism that comes from an imcomplete understanding of what they are criticizing. The are tired of being asked to consider non-scientific questions. Richard Dawkins new book _The Greatest Show on Earth_ is all about why evolution is now as much a fact as gravity theory and heliocentrism.

The deal with evolution is that it is not perfect. In fact the imperfections of evolution are just more evidence that there is no intelligent designer. Ever wonder why we have hiccups? The answer is fascinating and it is because of evolution. Why *do* cave dwelling animals have eyes? Why do bat wings look so much like a grotesque version of a hand? Why don't whales have gills? Why do ostriches have wings?
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