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Ear Piercing: Please debate! - Page 4

post #61 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by jeca
qoute:
Do I got that right?

there is no factual evidence supporting ear peircing, it's usually done based on cultural traditions as already stated so there really isn't going to be anything but you say nay and I say nay type stuff. I think that if you just want to debate something it should be sometig that has supprting evidenae either for or against. Like cir'd, vaxes, babywearing, CIO that type of stuff.
Oh , I see, Like the Scientific evidence, right? sorry but i CAN Use my goddess given and Mom acquired abilities to see all the facts without having to be told by some "professional"--- as in circing. vaxeds, babywearing, bfing, and that "stuff"
so, if YOU thnk this a stupid Debate than why debate the debate.
I for one consider the children of the world to be important and their issues to be mine and my grandchildrens.
maybe if someone actually wants to debate with an openmind in order to possibly help someone who is struggling with her cultures ideas and thoughts to be strenghtened in doing what SHE wants INSTEAD. Therefore This in not a pointless DEBATE.
laura
post #62 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Foobar
?


Now, this is my opinon. I don't think it is abuse to peirce a baby's ears, but I personally wouldn't do it. I would rather my child make that decision herself (or himself).

And before people get too upset about permenent damage, what about tatoos? I know many women here have them. Would you allow your child to have that form of mutlation or not?

I think you bring up a good point.

Why is is abuse to strike a child in the face and not to punch a hole in their ear?? Honestly, if they don't want EITHER, it's a grey line IMO.

Many CONSENTING adults engage in S&M...which includes hitting and spanking. Would I let my adult daughter do this? Sure...she's an adult...her choice. Would I hit my child or let someone else hit my child? No.

Many adults CHOSE to get inked up...myself included. Would I let my adult daughter? Sure....again, shes an adult...he choice. Would I ink a baby? No.

I think it is definitely bordering on abuse to pierce babies and it's at best disrespectful to pierce toddlers who may "ask" but have no real concept of what it is they are asking.
post #63 of 143
I don't mind debating away. Everyone is entitled to their POV. What I mind is people ganging up (outright condemnation) on 1 person for choosing to get her DD's ears pierced. That's where my exasperation came from.
post #64 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Tanibani

I just thought it was interesting theory * worth * considering. I can understand somebody * wanting * to pierce their nose, bellybutton, or ears. I don't get wanting to get your nipples pierces (YEOW), female genitalia (WHY????????????) or tongue (forget HOW dumb it may look to me, who wants to taste metal in their mouth with food or not????) I believe Janet Jackson once said pierced nipples felt more pleasurable.
As someone who has ALL of the piercings you question (as well as most of the piercings you can understand :LOL) I can certainly tell you that I did not do any of them as a sign of self hatred, or a desire for pain (I was VERY nervous getting them done, and if I could have had the piercings done without the whole "putting a needle through myself" I certainly would have!). I COMPLETELY understand that others scratch their heads and think "Why in the WORLD would you do that??" because yeah, to a lot of people its very weird, but to hear that people think its done as a sign of self hatred really bothers me. I completely respect you're view of "that's icky" or whatever, but don't automatically think anyone with said piercings has a serious head case or something.

I got the piercings for the same reasons that others get their ears pierced. Or wear a pretty dress. Or dye their hair. I think it beautifies my body. I enjoy having my piercings (and I miss having my nipple ring in now that I'm nursing... but the hole is still there). I know others disagree that piercings are not attractive, but frankly, there are people who won't like anything you do that makes you feel good about yourself.

And yeah, never tasted metal with the tounge piercing. In fact I've got an all plastic barbell in right now.

Sorry to take this thread so off topic! But I just had to reply
post #65 of 143
T
Quote:
Originally posted by StarMama
I completely respect you're view of "that's icky" or whatever, but don't automatically think anyone with said piercings has a serious head case or something.
To be clear, I am not assuming this. I, in fact, admire adults who want to pierce themselves all over (or tatoo themselves head to toe) because to me, it reflects a more open-minded perspective (and a lot of guts). I don't view (prejudge) you or anybody else doing this as "damaged" by any means.

I simply pointed out a theory someone else proposed that made me go "hmmmm, * perhaps * there is something to that." But no, I don't think that MOST women who Do get themselves pierced here and there hate themselves. I don't know enough about psychology to go there. But.... I can't discount it totally either.... (it's a fascinating theory) and then again, one can't say the same about other "normal" things (beauty pageants....) right?

Quote:
Originally posted by StarMama
And yeah, never tasted metal with the tounge piercing. In fact I've got an all plastic barbell in right now.
Then you are tasting a plastic barbell all day. (Where is my yuck face?) OK, not tasting it, feeling it. But if you don't mind, why should I?
post #66 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by anothermama


I think it is definitely bordering on abuse to pierce babies and it's at best disrespectful to pierce toddlers who may "ask" but have no real concept of what it is they are asking.
This continues to bother me.. why does everyone assume that no 2 or 3 year old could possibly understand what they're asking? Just because you weren't self aware at that age doesn't mean that other people aren't. :

I don't see any reason to make a child wait until they're some arbitrary age. I'm not in favor of piercing infants (or anyone who can't ask) but if my 2 or 4 or 9 year old asks, I certainly won't say no based on some arbitrary number I have in my head. That doesn't make any more sense to me than piercing them when they're infants.
post #67 of 143
A wise woman who was not already involved in this conversation would walk away right now...ah heck, who am I trying to kid.

Just thought I'd give you my experiences with my kids. If you think I'm crazy or mean, please don't bother to tell me.

My oldest, then about 7 begged to get her ears pierced. I relented. She got one pierced, freaked and decided not to have the other done. For many years. Then at 19 she took her birthday money, from me and got her tongue pierced. Kids!

My son was 5. Some little girl as at one of those mall kiosks getting her ears pierced. SHe ws screaming bloody murder. As a joke I said, "that sounds like fun, huh? Want to get your ears pierced?" His whole body froze, his face lit up and he said, "would you really let me? Really? Oh, Ma...." I felt like a creep for teasing him, but my daughters experince was still fresh in my mind and that girl was still crying... I tried to tak him out of it, but he was crushed. I'd asked after all. So, he got one ear pierced. He begged to get the other done too, said it didn't hurt. I was afraid his dad would have a fit, though he didn't. (His grandfather freaked!)

Twinners come along. Now, this ain't funny! They're identical. I mean completely, except for quickly fading marks on opposite eyelids. I studied those babies. I painted one big toe nail on one baby, but the other baby sucked it off! That couldn't be good! I dressed them in different outfits, but after a few changes, who was wearing what became a problem.

We went to the pedi, who looked my babies over carefully and said one had a head that was 1/2 a centimeter smaller tahn the other. Right. 1/2 a centimeter? So if my mother said, "Dear, which of the girls do I have?" I could grab the tape measure and find out? Sheesh.

Then I went to visit a friend who also had identical twin boys, 2 years older and very smart. They asked who was who. I told them. They started telling me I ws wrong. I blew them off. They got irate, started yellin' and cryin' and pullin' on their mom and saying NO, they girls are the other way around. And I had to wait until they were asleep to see if they were right. And they were.

Now, I didn't know about Hep or piercing guns vs needles back then, and those birth marks were fading fast. So I took them to the mall. Until they were 5, Liz wore hearts and Nikki wore stars. In case of medical emergency, can you imagine...if one were unconsious and one died, I couldn't help but wonder how we'd ever know. What would I say? I don't know who's who?

At thirteen, that's not a problem. I can tell, but sometimes it takes a second look! Oh, and neither of them cried. THey were about 3 or 4 months old. They looked surprised, then they nursed, and it seemed ok.
post #68 of 143
It makes me so sad to see little babies with holes punched in their bodies. It's the same feeling I get when I see babies wrapped in sposies. Sure, it may be what people "do" here in our society, but does that make it ok? Does that make it right?

In my mind, piercing ears for cultural tradition (not family tradition, but true cultural tradition, such as piercing a baby's ears on their first birthday in India) is different than piercing for vanity's sake, or because that's "what girls should look like." That said, I still wouldn't pierce my child's ears for any reason.

"They are girls, they are supposed to have their ears pierced."

I mean, how sad is a statement like that? Our society has brainwashed people to the extent that they will punch holes in their newborns for no other reason than to have them look like our pop culture image of "girl". Is it really *that* awful to have to correct people occasionally who guess the wrong gender of your baby? : Does that really merit putting a needle through your baby's new flesh?

I was pierced as a small child, and had a traumatic experience that resulted in getting my ears lanced open a week later to drain all of the puss-y infection that occured. My ears are thick with scar tissue to this day. (I never repierced them on my own.) What was the point of piercing my ears? Of course! So I could look "girly". :Puke My experience may not have been typical, but it was completely unnecessary and done purely out of vanity on my mother's part.

To me, those earrings on babies - yes, even the gold and diamond ones - look so sad and vain and disrespectful.
post #69 of 143
the other day, i was walking through the mall, slinging my little ella, when i heard the most frightened, betrayed, angry cry. it was obvious that the cry was from a newborn, and it didn't take me long to figure out that it was a baby getting her ears pierced at one of those little kiosks. the baby was obviously very upset, and the young (!) mother was busy putting her away in her little car seat/carrier rather than trying to comfort her. i cried in the middle of the mall because i felt so bad for the little girl, and her mama didn't seem to give a damn. she got what she wanted...a "pretty, girley baby".

i know that some of you will say that you held/nursed/comforted your baby afterwards. but it was still after you paid somebody to stick a needle through her tiny, perfect ears without ever asking her!

aren't we supposed to be protecting our babies from unneccesary pain and upset, rather than causing it? i know my babies expect that from me, and i don't plan to ever betray that trust.

i am not against piercing. i took my sister to be pierced when she was 15 (the labret, i think?), with my mother's blessing. it was my sister's choice, and also her responsibility.

and in fact, i have been pierced for years in various places, but my mama never let me get my ears pierced until i was 12. it may seem to be an arbitrary age, but for her (and eventually me), it was a coming of age thing...a symbol of responsibility and choice. and i'll tell you...it wasn't done on a whim. i looked forward to it for years, and gave it lots of thought, so that when the time came, i truly appreciated my choice.

sorry for the rambling, but i've been stewing about this thread for a day now.

amy
post #70 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by eilonwy
This continues to bother me.. why does everyone assume that no 2 or 3 year old could possibly understand what they're asking? Just because you weren't self aware at that age doesn't mean that other people aren't. :

I don't see any reason to make a child wait until they're some arbitrary age. I'm not in favor of piercing infants (or anyone who can't ask) but if my 2 or 4 or 9 year old asks, I certainly won't say no based on some arbitrary number I have in my head. That doesn't make any more sense to me than piercing them when they're infants.
A two or three year old self aware!!!!!!?????

No........I do not assume a two or three year old isn't self aware...I KNOW THEY AREN'T. I don't remember when I was two or three so I'm not basing this on if I was or not......I'm basing this on basic psychology and common sense.

A 2 or 3 or even 4 year old just doesn't understand a lot of things....being self aware in this issue would mean being aware, to a degree, of the pain and how you could handle it, it would mean understanding the long term effects on your body and health, it would mean understanding HEALTH....I mean, sheesh....sure a 2 year old knows things mama tells them like "Eat your veggies to be healthy" but you really think you can sit down with a 2 year old and have a discussion about the ramifications of body modification and they'll really GET it???

Any given 2 year old who asks for ear piercing......you tell em yes and they'll get really excited and sure they'll probably nod and say "yea" when you say "Are you really really sure" but it doesn't mean they really are.

I don't think it should be an arbitrary age, either. My parents told me to wait till I was 16, but my dad caved when I was 15 and it was fine. My daughter will have to be elementary school aged, but it will really depend on her emotional and mental capacity at the time........maybe she'll be 9, maybe she'll be 12....maybe never. Who knows. All I DO know is that right now, she's 4...and while she's a very articulate and smart 4 year old, she's also a pretty normal kid and I don't think that even she would really GET IT till they put a needle through her ear and then she'd freak out.

Two or three year olds aren't self aware and should not have body modifications done to them until they are.
post #71 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by mama3peanuts
the other day, i was walking through the mall, slinging my little ella, when i heard the most frightened, betrayed, angry cry. it was obvious that the cry was from a newborn, and it didn't take me long to figure out that it was a baby getting her ears pierced at one of those little kiosks. the baby was obviously very upset, and the young (!) mother was busy putting her away in her little car seat/carrier rather than trying to comfort her. i cried in the middle of the mall because i felt so bad for the little girl, and her mama didn't seem to give a damn. she got what she wanted...a "pretty, girley baby".

i know that some of you will say that you held/nursed/comforted your baby afterwards. but it was still after you paid somebody to stick a needle through her tiny, perfect ears without ever asking her!

aren't we supposed to be protecting our babies from unneccesary pain and upset, rather than causing it? i know my babies expect that from me, and i don't plan to ever betray that trust.

i am not against piercing. i took my sister to be pierced when she was 15 (the labret, i think?), with my mother's blessing. it was my sister's choice, and also her responsibility.

and in fact, i have been pierced for years in various places, but my mama never let me get my ears pierced until i was 12. it may seem to be an arbitrary age, but for her (and eventually me), it was a coming of age thing...a symbol of responsibility and choice. and i'll tell you...it wasn't done on a whim. i looked forward to it for years, and gave it lots of thought, so that when the time came, i truly appreciated my choice.

sorry for the rambling, but i've been stewing about this thread for a day now.

amy
post #72 of 143
amy, that poor baby and her mama, so sad!!!!!
Gosh, I think i would be stewing over not saying something but then what good would that do????
I know, maybe we could have a peircing babies/toddlers march on some of those kiosks .......hmmmm

Oh, and yes.. a 2 or 3 or 4 yr old self-awareness... PLEEZE!
My 5 yr old wouldnt have that full understanding in order to do something so physically altering.
I think some mamas are needing to get a clue. sorry. this is not very NICe but really Are you kidding me????
Laura
post #73 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by lauraess

Oh, and yes.. a 2 or 3 or 4 yr old self-awareness... PLEEZE!
My 5 yr old wouldnt have that full understanding in order to do something so physically altering.
I think some mamas are needing to get a clue. sorry. this is not very NICe but really Are you kidding me????
Laura
Again, just because you weren't you shouldn't assume that no one is. I guess I'm a total freak, but I certainly understood everything that was involved when I was 2. Yes, I mean everything. Maybe I was just an unbelievably brilliant child, but please get over yourselves. It is possible. I'm not saying every 2 year old who asks should be pierced, but I am saying that you have to be open to the possibility that yes, they may actually (God forbid!) understand what they're asking for, even if you weren't capable of true understanding at that age. You don't need to be nasty to me just because I wasn't an average child. I think *you* are the one who desperately needs a clue. :
post #74 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by eilonwy
Again, just because you weren't you shouldn't assume that no one is. I guess I'm a total freak, but I certainly understood everything that was involved when I was 2. Yes, I mean everything. Maybe I was just an unbelievably brilliant child, but please get over yourselves. It is possible. I'm not saying every 2 year old who asks should be pierced, but I am saying that you have to be open to the possibility that yes, they may actually (God forbid!) understand what they're asking for, even if you weren't capable of true understanding at that age. You don't need to be nasty to me just because I wasn't an average child. I think *you* are the one who desperately needs a clue. :
Wow.

Well I don't think you should base YOUR assumptions on YOUR experience. Read any basic psychology text......go spend some time in a day care with 2 year olds........more two year olds are NOT as self aware as you claim you were. Maybe you WERE an ubvelievably brilliant child....most people dont remember hardly anything from when they were two, let alone be able to recollect their level of self awareness.

If you were ... awesome. But most 2 year olds aren't. They just aren't.
post #75 of 143
For me its like this:

I am the mom here. I make the decisions that concern my children. They are MY responsibility. What they want or dont want, what they have done or dont have done... its up to me. I have to live with the choice and my children future. whatever decisions I make whatwever choices come in life. I am not going to wait everything out for their "Rights". God put these children in MY care, because He knows I am fully capable of doing right by them. And just because a few of you ladies wish your ears were never pierced, and some of you think it is shamefull to pierce a baby's ears.... then thats probably the best choice for YOU & YOUR child. Your child will probably grow up with many of the same ideals/philosophies that you hold. I love being "girly with my earrings" so my daughters most-likely will see nothing wrong with it either.

Let's not condem each other based on our choices. I think we all strive towards being the best mothers we can be, we are all in different places, and on different paths though... so whats good for one.... may not be for another.....
post #76 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Ms.Doula
For me its like this:

I am the mom here. I make the decisions that concern my children. They are MY responsibility. What they want or dont want, what they have done or dont have done... its up to me. I have to live with the choice and my children future. whatever decisions I make whatwever choices come in life. I am not going to wait everything out for their "Rights". God put these children in MY care, because He knows I am fully capable of doing right by them. And just because a few of you ladies wish your ears were never pierced, and some of you think it is shamefull to pierce a baby's ears.... then thats probably the best choice for YOU & YOUR child. Your child will probably grow up with many of the same ideals/philosophies that you hold. I love being "girly with my earrings" so my daughters most-likely will see nothing wrong with it either.

Let's not condem each other based on our choices. I think we all strive towards being the best mothers we can be, we are all in different places, and on different paths though... so whats good for one.... may not be for another.....
I agree with your premise....children are in our care. And I don't think anyone sees anything wrong with piercing ears to look girly or whatnot.

But I think the whole "whatevers best for you and your family" thing is kind of a cop out, to be honest. You're talking about body modification, not wearing a hat in the sun or not. I don't think it's ok to just dismiss it is a personal preference.....its not just "I'm going to dress my kid in only green"...it's a health issue.

To be *really* honest, that whole attitude irks the heck out of me. We have become so PC orriented that it's never ok to say to parents "Whoa...maybe you need to rethink that" because of this whole *personal perference* thing that we don't hold parents accountable for making poor choices with their children. It's like saying breastfeeding is a personal choice...yeah, I guess it is, but at least own that you are feeding your child in a substandard way. You know? Sure...pierce your kid, but at least lets acknowledge it shows a degree of disrespect for them and their bodies if done before they are able to consent and know whats going on.
post #77 of 143
Quote:
at least lets acknowledge it shows a degree of disrespect for them and their bodies
Again... Thats your oppinion. I disagree.

I stand behind the choices I make regarding my children. They are always thought out, never done on a whim. Like I said... I am responsible for them, I am accountable for the choices I make for them & regarding them -to noone else but God. I think its crappy for you to say ;

Quote:
.....hold parents accountable for making poor choices with their children
I *DON'T* feel I made "poor choices" and it isnt for anyone else to say!!! Thats my whole point!
post #78 of 143
I have been lurking here for a while and shouldn't EVEN be getting into this.... BUT, big gulp, here goes.......

I am not trying to sound argumentative, but how can you rationalize equating making a decision to give a child medicine and putting a hole in their ear for cosmetic reasons.

I am a very strict mom. (Until recently that is - loving MDC) My entire MO since I gave birth the first time (10 years ago) was that these children came into MY life. So I completely understand where you are coming from when you say that you make the decisions for your child because they are in your care. I am right there with you. Sometimes you can't be gentle and you just have to do it because I said so - I'm sure that this is not a popular statement around here - but most of the moms who would disagree with that statement don't have older kids yet! Anyway - I make decisions for the WELFARE of my kids - sometimes whether they like it or not. But piercing a child's ear has nothing to do with their welfare.

So if you are going to hold on to the idea that you will do what you want because they are in your care - and those decisions have nothing to do with the health or welfare of the child - Then it is NOT your decision....

YKWIM
post #79 of 143
well, to address the issue of ear piercing in general...

Quote:
I think it is disempowering to do this to your child.
... and i also think it's incredibly disrespectful. i would NOT want my body altered in any way without my full consent. and a baby can't give consent.

i am Spanish, and all of my aunts and cousins on my father's side all had gold rings put in their ears when they were babies. my father never agreed with that and said that if i wanted my ears pierced, i'd have to wait until i was 13 (why 13? i don't know. it was just his rule.)

looking back, i'm VERY glad he did that. i did go out and get my ears pierced when i was 13, right after my birthday in fact, but at that point it was more just to prove that i could, that i had that control over my body.

i also don't believe in circumsision, for the same reason: not my body, not my choice.

i want my daughter (assuming my baby is a girl ) to grow up knowing her body is HER OWN and nobody has a right to it but herself. if she wants piercings or tats or *whatever* when she's old enough to make an informed decision herself, great, that's her choice. but i'm not going to impose *my* ideal of beauty -- or in the case of just piercing, society's ideal -- on *her*.
post #80 of 143
also, to address some comments specifically ~

Quote:
I'm guessing taht most of you mothers that are dead set agaist ear peircing also don't vax right? Adn I noticed that most of you have boys so I'm guessing they aren't circ" right? I hope not otherwise you aer inflicting pain and that's not right or at least that's your theory, right?Also are your own ears peirced? How you told your mother's how you felt? Do you look down on those tribal traditions such as lip plates and such also?
i vaccinated my son fully, because in all of the research i have done (and i have done very much... esp. considering i'm majoring in microbiology) i consider the risks of NOT vaccinating to far outweigh the perceived risks of vaxxing. my son is also one of the healthiest kids i've ever met, and he's only been sick about 3 times in his life. i consider this a medical issue, not a body mod issue.

my son is *not* circumcised, because it's an unnecessary cosmetic procedure -- just like ear piercing. it alters the natural function and feeling (and appearance!!!!) of the boy's penis, and it's not *my* right to take that away from him.

i do have my own ears pierced (most of the holes i did myself with sterile equpment), and after my baby's born i plan to get more body mods (tattoos, horizontal nipple bars, libret, navel...) because 1) it's my choice, and 2) i consider it beautiful. i would not impose that on my baby girl, though.

my mom knows that her idea of beauty is completely different from my idea of beauty, and she's ok with that (although she doesn't understand it).

and yes, i do look down on tribal cultures that have traditions like lip plates and female circumcision and ritual scarring and ritual burns and beating boys so they grow up to be "men"... and so on. i consider those practices awful and barbaric and i really think they need to stop. but, i'm not part of those cultures, and the people who are don't understand our culture either. :: shrug ::

Quote:
I DONT personally know of ANYONE that has ear peircings & as an adult, doesn't want them anymore
i can name two of my friends off of the top of my head who both hated their ear piercings and let their holes close up as soon as it was their decision to make.

Quote:
The "sexual" piercings (nipples, tongue, genitalia) are to increase sensation, either for one's self or for one's partner.
maybe for some but definitely not for most of the people i know, including myself. i personally like the way nipple bars look... i think it's a beautiful bit of jewelry that enhances a woman's natural assets.
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