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Ear Piercing: Please debate! - Page 5

post #81 of 143
Well..... so, what did i say that was Nasty? -that some mamas need to get a clue---- oh yes, did that offend? gee sorry.
what really is funny is that when one considers themselves an exception to the rule as in 2 yrs old and able to comprehend informed consent than why debate in a general audience of "average" situations??
This debate is over young children who cannot make their own decisions based on full knowledge of consequences and the People who choose to "control" their lives and their bodies.
Not the very rare child who can comprehend bodily pain, risk of infection, Gender stereotypes , and a semi-permanant disfigurement.:
Laura
post #82 of 143
We can debate back and forth on the topic. I wish that the Mother's that do decide to pierce their children before the children are mature enough to make that desision for themselves would just step up and admit they are doing it because they want their kids to have earings. I really don't believe that they are doing it to help their children or because they believe their children will want the piercing anyway and they are saving them time and money. Just admit that it is your own sense of esthetics that drives you to do it.

I stand behing my initial debate in this thread and that is IT is disempowering to do this to your children. It is disrespectful and yet again another example of how the power to control our bodies is often taken away from us, and in this case at a very young and unaware age.
post #83 of 143
Mountain mom: i agree wholeheartedly.
One thing i have definately learned over the years with the help of mothering mag. is that the control issue really drives a lot of what is messed up in our society and in our families.
Theres a difference between being the parent who makes the rules and controling children. They are not ours, imo, they are gifts that we have for a short time to care for, not to mold and fit into our wishes and expectations.
I'd be so much happier to take my dd when she is an approriate age and have her step into the world of adornment than to hand her little earlobes over to a stranger w/ a piercing device and have to soothe her tears and confusion.
Laura
post #84 of 143
I was almost pulled into the ear peircing thing with my dd. I had my ears done when I was 5 years old and I freaked out, my mom made me feel so bad about it and so did the guy who did them, calling me a baby and my mom got mad and said I couldn't have ice cream if I didn't let the guy finish.... and after he was done I had to say I was sorry to him. I thought that if I did it when dd was little she wouldn't have that bad time getting it done. I also wanted people to see that she was a girl. I was sure it would make everyone call her a girl, because she had that bald white baby non-sex look to her, and no matter how "girlie" I dressed her (pink dress, pink hair bow stuck on her bald head, pink shoes and socks) people still called her a boy. BUT my dh was not into it and said it was something she should want to do for herself. So I finally let it go.
At age 5 dd wanted to get her ears peirced, we decided she should wait a while and watch a few, she decide to wait too. So when she was six, she wanted to do it. I took her in they did it with two ear peircing guns and it was over in about 2 seconds. She loved her earrings and she takes good care of her ears. That has been about 4 years ago. I think waiting was the thing for us.
Also about the ear hole closing up, that isn't always the case, the longer the hole is there the more likely it is to stay. I haven't worn earrings in about 7 years, and my holes are still open. My dd can go months without wearing them and her holes are still open. And as weird as it sound, I also for no reason get an infection in my ear holes too. Usually about once a year.
Another funny thing, all of my nieces have their ears peirced all done when they were wee babes and people still called them boys. My nephew who has big blue eyes and long black lashes was called a girl until he was 3 years old. I don't think it matter either way, people think long hair and long lashes equal girl and bald babies equal boy. (My nieces were also dressed as girlie as possible.)
H
post #85 of 143
Mama of 3: That is a great story that accounts for the shallowness/ or at least covers it when it comes to the parents and their selfish need to have a baby look Gender-appropriate.
I think that story you must carry around with you is sad and telling of a lot. then, to have to apologize?! Man, if i was you id be sooo mad and confused as a child (which i was of course for other selfish parents reasons: )
Im glad that you and your dh decided to wait and let your child decide when she was ready.

Good for you and you dd!!!! im sure she looks beautiful especially haveing the say in the matter and after you supporting her and EMPOWERING her.

Laura
post #86 of 143
Quote:
But I think the whole "whatevers best for you and your family" thing is kind of a cop out, to be honest.
I agree with you; in many situations, I think it is a copout. It irritates me to no end that on most parenting boards, I could probably post, "I have decided to feed my child battery acid because I have researched it and I think it is what is best for her," and a dozen people would probably come back and say, "well, you have to do whatever's best for your family...blah blah blah."

THAT SAID, although I wouldn't *personally* pierce my daughter's ears until she is old enough to decide whether she wants them or not and can take care of them herself, I don't have a problem with someone else doing it, and I think the "whatever works for you" line is appropriate on this issue.

I don't equate it to circumcision, tattooing, etc. It's a hole in the ear. Sure, she didn't ask for it, but she doesn't ask to have bows in her hair or wear frilly dresses either (yes, I know it's not exactly analogous). Also, assuming she decides she doesn't want it later on, it's not permanent (at least not to the degree that a tattoo or circ is) and it doesn't affect body function (like circ could, for example).

Oh, and FWIW, I love the way earrings look on little girls. Not so much tiny babies...but on toddlers -- I think age appropriate earrings are very cute! For me, though, the benefit of waiting outweighs the cuteness factor. For others, it may not. *shrug*

Also, anecdotally -- I have noticed that a number of teenage girls do not have their ears pierced these days...at least not in my little suburban corner of the world.
post #87 of 143
I don't get this, I really don't. You are punching a hole in your child's ear for NO reason whatsoever. There is NO reason to do it. Wanting to make your child look girly is such a horrible reason imo. Talk about enforcing gender stereotypes at a young age. And YES!! It IS permanent. Everyone keeps saying it isn't permanent which is a load of bull. My holes never closed over. My cousin hasn't worn earrings for THIRTEEN years and hers didn't close over. I am so disturbed by this that mamas who claim to have their childs best interest at heart could take this choice away from their child, do something PERMANENT to their body without their consent . It is not our choice! It is not our bodies! And they are not our possessions to do with what we will.

And on the other note about PC parenting, I totally agree. How many times do I hear someone say "well I wouldn't let my child CIO but you have to do what works best for you." Excuse me?! So we are to condone child abuse and neglect because its a personal choice. Or someone chooses to hit their child as part of their parenting choices and that's okay? NO! It is not OUR choice. They are not our possessions. If we truly want whats best for our children we will ALWAYS act in their best interest and NOONE can convince me it is in a child's best interests to have their ears pierced (or be left to CIO, or to be formula fed, or hit).
post #88 of 143
i think we lose track of what were all saying when loaded phrases like "bad mom" "good mom" are used.

do i think someone is a "bad mom" for piercing their girl's ears? no, and i would never use that phrase.

do i think it is a violation of any child's civil rights ? yes, i do. i firmly believe we are all endowed from birth with basic human rights, and while i am my child's guardian i am not entitiled to violate my child's rights. no one is. i must make decisions when it comes to protecting my son, but they must always be in HIS best interests, not in my own ( cultural perceptions are my own, not my childs).

i was pierced as a baby. yes, i have told my mother today that i think it was wrong of her to do it. i would not lie to her. she knows i think she was wrong to smoke while i was in her womb, she knows i wish she had troubled herself to breastfeed me, among a lot of other things she did/ didnt do. i will never forgive dh's parents for circumcizing him. they know he and i think it was wrong (they still think circ prevents STDS). i dont think there is anything wrong with being honest across the board about your beliefs.

human rights, including human children, are of utmost importance to me and to our family. if i violated my son, how can i teach him to respect his sons? if i violate my daughter's rights, how can i teach her to be a strong woman? how can i teach her to keep others from violating her? will a young girl respect her body if even her own mother does not?

when the girl in my womb is old enough to choose, she will make her choice. and i will respect her choice. and i hope she grows up knowing she has a mother who respects her and supports her in everything she does.

the best we can all do is to raise gentle people. and the best way to do this is to be gentle ourselves.

tabitha

eta: the 'size' or 'importance' of a human rights violation doesnt matter. if it is "ok" to make a small hole in an ear without consent, what else is "ok"? who decides what is and isnt ok?

why cant one debate human rights violations just because the people who may or may not commit them believe in their own minds that its "a cultural thing"? that makes absolutely no sense to me. if somewhere off in the world there was a culture who scarred up the faces of all their babies at birth, would that be OK? just because they believe that it makes them more godly or something? what if off in some other culture, fathers sexually molested all their girl children because in their culture that was deemed OK? cultural perceptions/ normalcies are no excuse for human rights violations IMO, however "innocent" or "small".

i believe WE ALL, young and old and of any race, have rights.
post #89 of 143
Tabitha- ITA!
post #90 of 143
I got dd's ear's pierced when she was a baby. but I was a vaxer back then too.

HOWEVER i do have to say that it didn't hurt her much if at all. She wrinkled up her brow a bit, but didn't cry at all. She just looked a bit startled and curious. It didn't occur to me that it could hurt because mine were done when I was 4 and it didn't hurt at all then. But as I've gotten older each peircing has hurt more. My skin and cartiledge have gotten tougher. Dd's ears are still peirced, though she had to have one redone when she was 5 because her dad left her earrings out for the summer when he had her and it closed up. That time it DID hurt her though. But she begged for it as a b-day present. And even though she screamed when it happened she was thrilled when she looked in the mirror. She's 8 now, and has been caring for her own ears for 2 years with no probs.

-Heather
post #91 of 143
I do have to say that I think Orion would look SO cool w/ an earring, I think it would be cute! However, they aren't my ears to pierce. I have one of those magnetic ones, I should put it on him in his rocker hot topic onesie for a moment to take a photo! :LOL
post #92 of 143
I'm going to sneek out on a limb here...and very quietly say that I too have a daughter with pierced ears. They were pierced when she was 9 weeks old. My husband is from Spain and ear piercing IS cultural there. It is very definately something that he wanted done. There are many, many things that are more important that I have not compromised on when I felt that they were absolutely incomprehsible. This was something that while I didn't like the idea of ever causing my daughter pain, I knew the piercing was important to him. We live in THIS country, far from his family and culture, and this was a relatively minor compromise I made.

That said...I cried more than she did when it was done. She did cry, but she immediately went to the breast and was fine afterwards. I took imaculate care of them and she has never had a problem. Today, I think they are adorable.

Flame me if you like, but I am not sorry I did it.

Christina
post #93 of 143
Quote:
I got dd's ear's pierced when she was a baby. but I was a vaxer back then too.
ok, i honestly don't understand how these are on the same page. one is purely cosmetic, and the other has a whole lot of medical reasoning behind it. this was brought up in this thread before and i just don't understand the perspective.
post #94 of 143
I was merely illustrating that I had dd's ears peirced at a time in my life before I questioned things. I vaxed back then because it didn't occur to me that I had a choice.

-Heather
post #95 of 143
oh.

ok.
post #96 of 143
Children's body's are their own. They deserve to make permanent choices for themselves.

I don't understand inflicting pain, for even two seconds, for the sole purposes of appearance. Especially to a child incapable of understanding the reasons.

Nature takes care of the "looking girly" thing well enough for me.

It IS mutilation, unless they are giving informed consent.

You want girly? By froufrou socks, for pity's sake. Or those beautiful little bracelets I see some baby girls wearing
post #97 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by lauraess
Oh , I see, Like the Scientific evidence, right? sorry but i CAN Use my goddess given and Mom acquired abilities to see all the facts without having to be told by some "professional"--- as in circing. vaxeds, babywearing, bfing, and that "stuff"
so, if YOU thnk this a stupid Debate than why debate the debate.
I for one consider the children of the world to be important and their issues to be mine and my grandchildrens.
maybe if someone actually wants to debate with an openmind in order to possibly help someone who is struggling with her cultures ideas and thoughts to be strenghtened in doing what SHE wants INSTEAD. Therefore This in not a pointless DEBATE.
laura
Okay..... now I've been gone a while so I don't know whty your panties seem to be in a buch over my comment, is there something is particular that ticked your nerve? Um, don't remember saying it was stupid either, just was pointing out that if you were looking for some kind of facts as your prevoius posts seemed to be, then there wasn't any. You must just like to debate? Anyway..... I just don't have the gaul as some of you do to call someone a bad mom or shame shaming because they do things differant. But I've cometo realize that alot of the mothers here have this utipian view of how life should be and tend to get upset or even offended when things vary outside of that, I get that and hey great for you but don't add words to my post, keep it real.
Blessings
post #98 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by jeca
qoute:
Do I got that right?

what is it your trying to debate? there is no factual evidence supporting ear peircing, it's usually done based on cultural traditions as already stated so there really isn't going to be anything but you say nay and I say nay type stuff. I think that if you just want to debate something it should be sometig that has supprting evidenae either for or against. Like cir'd, vaxes, babywearing, CIO that type of stuff. things like ear peircing can only get into "well what a stupid culture"type name calling.(no way suggesting that am mama here would say that(not saying they wouldn't either).
It seems clear that our thoughts as wise, learned mamas here on MDC dont count as facts to you. many of us laugh at the "facts" given to us by drs because frankly, we KNOW better--- We can see the facts AND feel them. So As this thread was started as a debate the Fact that early, forced ear-piercing on young children is cultural is OnLY ONE fACT . Many Of Us Here Gave the others and you dont seems to Regard them as Thus.
And as far as the views some of us have, perhaps its not Utopian, rather..... Humanitarian.

laura
post #99 of 143
To answer the OP...I would never alter my children's bodies in way...it took me over 40 weeks to create each and they're both perfect the way they are.

I don't think piercing is the same as circumcizing, but I do think it is wrong...I can see cultural/tradition reasons a bit more than 'looking a girl'.
Another reason I wouldn't do it to my daughter is because, simply put, I think babies or toddlers with pierced ears look silly. Kinda like those little girls dressed up for a beauty pageant.
post #100 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by lauraess
It seems clear that our thoughts as wise, learned mamas here on MDC dont count as facts to you. many of us laugh at the "facts" given to us by drs because frankly, we KNOW better--- We can see the facts AND feel them. So As this thread was started as a debate the Fact that early, forced ear-piercing on young children is cultural is OnLY ONE fACT . Many Of Us Here Gave the others and you dont seems to Regard them as Thus.
And as far as the views some of us have, perhaps its not Utopian, rather..... Humanitarian.

laura
But I didn't say anything too far from what a few other's said about teh cultural thing but you seemed so seethed at my post and rather mellow with a few other's so again I ask is there something in particular that twisted your britches?
As far as facts go I will clear that up. Most debates spout off lots of facts from "independant" sources with links and things included to back up their pov. That's the kind of facts I was speaking of. To imply that I don't respect what mothers' here have "learned" or believe is just plain silly if that was the case I wouln't come here for a simpathetic ear or advice on child rearing issues now would I? You seem to want to cling to the idea that I'm putting down your views and those like minded mamas but that's the differance between us I don't do things like that. I don't try to shame a mama ormake her feel bad about her choices even if I don't agree with them perhaps that makes me mre of humanitarian than you'd like to believe. All I did is point out(like others) that it is more of a cultural thing if you choose to take it in anegative or hateful tone well nothing I can do about that. I respect the mothers here opinions far more than most respect mine. I am not trying to change anyone's mind was just giving my opinion on the matter probably makes for a poor debate but that's all I have.
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