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Epsom salt baths?!! GRRRR I don't get it...

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
How is it that epsom salt baths that are soothing, calming and relaxing for everyone else do NOT have the same affect on my kids?! I give my kids epsom salt baths and they go off the deep end! AND it's not a one time fluke. It's every time they take an epsom salt bath. The salts appear to affect them the way allergenic foods would affect a child who was sensitive to it. Can kids be allergic to salts?

Anyone else have this experience?
post #2 of 43
It's a reaction to being VERY low on mag. Basically, the body is extremely tuned into mag as it tries to get enough for use, and when it is introduced to the system, it overreacts.

It's late and I'm not explaining it well. But yes, totally possible . Start with extremely small amounts of Epsom salts - like 1 tablespoon in a bath. and work up from there,
post #3 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASusan View Post
It's a reaction to being VERY low on mag. Basically, the body is extremely tuned into mag as it tries to get enough for use, and when it is introduced to the system, it overreacts.

It's late and I'm not explaining it well. But yes, totally possible . Start with extremely small amounts of Epsom salts - like 1 tablespoon in a bath. and work up from there,
the other possibility is that the body is low on co-factors required for mag use, such as B6... I believe low folate and low Molybdenum are also possible factors.
post #4 of 43
post #5 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrabella View Post
Dang, how do you guys retain all of this info?
For me, it pretty much is my job right now. I think, breathe, eat, sleep, live and write nutritional stuff all day, every day with my kids and online. And I still don't retain nearly ALL of it. I'm constantly re-looking up info, checking, re-checking, re-re-checking and then checking again.
post #6 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
How is it that epsom salt baths that are soothing, calming and relaxing for everyone else do NOT have the same affect on my kids?! I give my kids epsom salt baths and they go off the deep end! AND it's not a one time fluke. It's every time they take an epsom salt bath. The salts appear to affect them the way allergenic foods would affect a child who was sensitive to it. Can kids be allergic to salts?

Anyone else have this experience?
People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.
post #7 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjørne View Post
People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.
first time I've heard this and I will always bow to PB's superior knowledge.
that would mean it's caused by a blocked or low functioning detox pathway though then, right?
post #8 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrabella View Post
Dang, how do you guys retain all of this info?
I've thought this so many times.
post #9 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
first time I've heard this and I will always bow to PB's superior knowledge.
that would mean it's caused by a blocked or low functioning detox pathway though then, right?
It ALL comes back to detox pathways!!!
post #10 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thank-you all so much for your replies!

My kids have been taking sea salt baths practically since they were born. We don't use soap in the bath because my son has eczema and it makes it worse. In the last yr I switched to using epsom salts as they were cheaper. I use a couple of cups in a large sized tub.

I don't think my kids are *super* deficient in magnesium. Awhile ago I tried to supplement their mag intake. My eldest tolerates kirkman's mag powder (magnesium citrate). However, my middle child has some strange intolerances. I tried him on water kefir. Even 1/8 teaspoon gave him liquid (clear liquid) diarrhea....he's never had this before. I tried him on this on several occasions w/the same results. Inositol, even at small doses, gives him the same type of diarrhea as kefir and mag gives him very loose bm's. So I can't get a lot of mag into him because I'm assuming he's just not absorbing it.

I also use kirkman's magnesium cream, though I'm not sure exactly how much is absorbed. My son also drinks a smoothie w/a LOT of hempseed in it...I think this is loaded w/mag?

So maybe the cofactors? Vit B6? How much for a 45lb 6 yo? He takes a multi vit that claims 100% RDA...is this enough? The multivit also does folic acid but I'm not sure about moly. Is there a wholefood (vegetarian) source for this?

It is interesting that my 2 eldest kids (my eldest has aspergers and my middle child is spectrum-y) are far more negatively affected by the epsom salts than my third child who actually appears soporific after her bath!
post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
Thank-you all so much for your replies!

My kids have been taking sea salt baths practically since they were born. We don't use soap in the bath because my son has eczema and it makes it worse. In the last yr I switched to using epsom salts as they were cheaper. I use a couple of cups in a large sized tub.

I don't think my kids are *super* deficient in magnesium. Awhile ago I tried to supplement their mag intake. My eldest tolerates kirkman's mag powder (magnesium citrate). However, my middle child has some strange intolerances. I tried him on water kefir. Even 1/8 teaspoon gave him liquid (clear liquid) diarrhea....he's never had this before. I tried him on this on several occasions w/the same results. Inositol, even at small doses, gives him the same type of diarrhea as kefir and mag gives him very loose bm's. So I can't get a lot of mag into him because I'm assuming he's just not absorbing it.

I also use kirkman's magnesium cream, though I'm not sure exactly how much is absorbed. My son also drinks a smoothie w/a LOT of hempseed in it...I think this is loaded w/mag?

So maybe the cofactors? Vit B6? How much for a 45lb 6 yo? He takes a multi vit that claims 100% RDA...is this enough? The multivit also does folic acid but I'm not sure about moly. Is there a wholefood (vegetarian) source for this?

It is interesting that my 2 eldest kids (my eldest has aspergers and my middle child is spectrum-y) are far more negatively affected by the epsom salts than my third child who actually appears soporific after her bath!
mamafish9 had this same problem, i believe, with her ds who has autism. i think it turned out to be a b6 deficiency preventing use of mag by cells... i'll ask her to come here.
post #12 of 43
Wow... what timing that I saw a link to this thread (thanks JR) just after DD gets out of an epsom salt bath and runs shrieking around the house in circles for 20 minutes (happy shrieking, not tantrum shrieking, but out of control all the same.) She also had a bite of my buckwheat/chocolate cookie before bath, so I wasn't positive which one it was (I was thinking sugar, but maybe it was the oxalates instead?). But now I'm thinking both. ugh.

I started a b6 supp (P5P) a couple weeks ago, and it seemed to make me VERY irritable for the week that I took it (although I'm not positive that was the cause). Maybe I should try again? Sorry to hijack OP.
post #13 of 43
Here as ordered .

Actually, my DS wasn't negatively affected by Epsom salts baths - he just didn't get any positive impact, and with very low mag and sals issues, we figured he should. Once we got him on enough b6, now they're great. He's 2.5, and I give him about 15-20mg of b6 a day, split into 4 doses. That's quite a lot, but he has high antimony, which messes with the body's ability to utilize magnesium - and b6 counteracts that. We're working on lowering his antimony, and as we do, his b6 need is coming down. (Ask me how much fun it is to try to split a 50mg capsule into the right sized doses - I know that right now 20mg a day is too much, but 12 is too little, based on symptoms).

I hadn't heard the oxalates thing before though, that's really interesting. PB, do you know the mechanism for that - what's getting messed with? (Yes, I am in the biochemistry geek club along with JR ).
post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
So maybe the cofactors? Vit B6? How much for a 45lb 6 yo? He takes a multi vit that claims 100% RDA...is this enough? The multivit also does folic acid but I'm not sure about moly. Is there a wholefood (vegetarian) source for this?
Best source of moly is beans/lentils.

Does the oxalate link have to do with Kreb's cycle? Is it the mag or the sulfate? Can't oxalates cause diarrhea? And aren't oxalates dumped to the gut where they're supposed to bind with calcium and/or get broken down by bacteria? Hmmm...
post #15 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Best source of moly is beans/lentils.

Does the oxalate link have to do with Kreb's cycle? Is it the mag or the sulfate? Can't oxalates cause diarrhea? And aren't oxalates dumped to the gut where they're supposed to bind with calcium and/or get broken down by bacteria? Hmmm...
Yes, oxalates *can* cause diarrhea all on their own. In this case it's the mag which can disrupt the calcium that is usually required in excess to deal with the oxalate issue. Enough mag for the average person isn't always the most comfy thing for someone with oxalate issues.

there is one other possible issue that I was unaware of. I should have more details soon.
post #16 of 43
Thread Starter 
Whoa Nellie!! Getting lost in the forest here....when you talk about oxalates are you referring to the amt of oxalates in a person's diet or how they metabolize them? I know oxalates block calcium absorption so that would, in turn, affect mag absorption but not sure how B6 fits in. How would I determine if my son has an oxalate issue? My eldest daughter seems to be be quite different in her tolerances. She can tolerate mag, inositol and kefir w/no side affects whatsoever though she still goes nutty after the ES baths!
post #17 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thanks so much for your input and for fetching mamafish9!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
mamafish9 had this same problem, i believe, with her ds who has autism. i think it turned out to be a b6 deficiency preventing use of mag by cells... i'll ask her to come here.
post #18 of 43
Thread Starter 
I wish more people WOULD hijack...I learn so much more that way !

Your DD sounds like my kids after the bath...they just totally lose every shred of self control and I turn into a screaming banshee...but it's as if I'm looking in a window at my kids and they can see me but they can't hear a word I'm saying (or screaming)!

I've heard that B vits can make some people terribly jittery and I guess maybe that's why I've been avoiding....

Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Wow... what timing that I saw a link to this thread (thanks JR) just after DD gets out of an epsom salt bath and runs shrieking around the house in circles for 20 minutes (happy shrieking, not tantrum shrieking, but out of control all the same.) She also had a bite of my buckwheat/chocolate cookie before bath, so I wasn't positive which one it was (I was thinking sugar, but maybe it was the oxalates instead?). But now I'm thinking both. ugh.

I started a b6 supp (P5P) a couple weeks ago, and it seemed to make me VERY irritable for the week that I took it (although I'm not positive that was the cause). Maybe I should try again? Sorry to hijack OP.
post #19 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
Here as ordered .

Actually, my DS wasn't negatively affected by Epsom salts baths - he just didn't get any positive impact, and with very low mag and sals issues, we figured he should. Once we got him on enough b6, now they're great. He's 2.5, and I give him about 15-20mg of b6 a day, split into 4 doses. That's quite a lot, but he has high antimony, which messes with the body's ability to utilize magnesium - and b6 counteracts that. We're working on lowering his antimony, and as we do, his b6 need is coming down. (Ask me how much fun it is to try to split a 50mg capsule into the right sized doses - I know that right now 20mg a day is too much, but 12 is too little, based on symptoms).

I hadn't heard the oxalates thing before though, that's really interesting. PB, do you know the mechanism for that - what's getting messed with? (Yes, I am in the biochemistry geek club along with JR ).
Thanks for your input! Does supplementing your son w/B6 actually allow him to tolerate higher doses of mag? How does a 2.5 yo have high antimony levels? How was that tested for? Hope I'm not being too nosy but I know next to nothing about most of this! Any info would be much appreciated!
post #20 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Best source of moly is beans/lentils.

Does the oxalate link have to do with Kreb's cycle? Is it the mag or the sulfate? Can't oxalates cause diarrhea? And aren't oxalates dumped to the gut where they're supposed to bind with calcium and/or get broken down by bacteria? Hmmm...
beans and lentils? Anything else? My dd eats these but my son does not....is hempseed any good? That's one of the few nutritious things I can get into my son besides cheese and yogurt (only by way of smoothies). We have major feeding issues!
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