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Epsom salt baths?!! GRRRR I don't get it... - Page 2

post #21 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjørne View Post
People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.
Thanks so much for your help...that description def. fits my kids after an ES bath soak! Gotta look into vit B6...
post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
beans and lentils? Anything else? My dd eats these but my son does not....is hempseed any good? That's one of the few nutritious things I can get into my son besides cheese and yogurt (only by way of smoothies). We have major feeding issues!
In plants, molybdenum is used for nitrogen fixing. A quick google looks like hemp isn't much of a nitrogen fixer so I'm guessing it wouldn't be that great of a source.
post #23 of 43
Thread Starter 
Would this be an ok product for supplementing p5p or does it have to be by itself? Probably a stupid?? but I'm a bit lost.


http://www.ourkidsasd.com/products/v...Kirkman%20Labs
post #24 of 43
This is totally bothering me...there's another mechanism here and I can feel it at the back of my brain and can't get it. I haven't cracked a book yet, but I will later if I continue to fail in my retrieval effort. There is something ELSE that happens when epsom salts make you go haywire. I asked another practitioner and she had a blank as well. We just stared at each other like idiots. We could both remember there was something but couldn't access it. Anyone? If I have to look it up I will....
post #25 of 43
I have oxalate issues as well. I get headaches and dizziness from eating foods too high in them. I recently ran out of my b-complex, I was unaware that b6 helped magnesium absorption. Is p5p better broken up through out the day? I have 50mg caplets [my bottle says 50mg P5P=30mg B6, ] It has been a long time since I did any research into oxalates, but doesn't folate [the active form L-5-MTHF] open up some pathway as well?

When I first started taking EP baths they made me feel extremely nauseous, I could tolerate only a couple tablespoons. Now I use at least a cup and take a bath several times per week. I often fall asleep immediately after while nursing DD.
post #26 of 43
What is P5P?
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by heidirk View Post
What is P5P?
Pyridoxal-5-phosphate, the most bio-available form of B6.
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punchy Kaby View Post
I have oxalate issues as well. I get headaches and dizziness from eating foods too high in them. I recently ran out of my b-complex, I was unaware that b6 helped magnesium absorption. Is p5p better broken up through out the day? I have 50mg caplets [my bottle says 50mg P5P=30mg B6, ] It has been a long time since I did any research into oxalates, but doesn't folate [the active form L-5-MTHF] open up some pathway as well?

When I first started taking EP baths they made me feel extremely nauseous, I could tolerate only a couple tablespoons. Now I use at least a cup and take a bath several times per week. I often fall asleep immediately after while nursing DD.
MethylTetraHydroFolate is necessary for the methylation pathway and possibly another which I can't remember presently.
post #29 of 43
JR-how are you doing? I was feeling so good before I got pregnant w DD. Now I feel like I have taken many steps backward. The good thing this time around is DD is a happy, smiley baby. Smiles all the time, happy all the time. No rashes or food allergies have popped up yet (DS was already having a problem by this age.) She could sleep better, or maybe just more.
post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punchy Kaby View Post
JR-how are you doing? I was feeling so good before I got pregnant w DD. Now I feel like I have taken many steps backward. The good thing this time around is DD is a happy, smiley baby. Smiles all the time, happy all the time. No rashes or food allergies have popped up yet (DS was already having a problem by this age.) She could sleep better, or maybe just more.
That's actually how I was with DS2- felt great before and like I was on the brink of death after. DS3 has brought no noticeable change, except that I think I'm still recovering from HG and have good and bad days. Starving for 6 months is bound to have some kind of effect on a person's health.
DS3 is a smiley, happy baby unless I eat dairy. I think he has another trigger as well, but I haven't been food journaling in order to figure it out.
post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjørne View Post
This is totally bothering me...there's another mechanism here and I can feel it at the back of my brain and can't get it. I haven't cracked a book yet, but I will later if I continue to fail in my retrieval effort. There is something ELSE that happens when epsom salts make you go haywire. I asked another practitioner and she had a blank as well. We just stared at each other like idiots. We could both remember there was something but couldn't access it. Anyone? If I have to look it up I will....
The sulfate stirring up toxins?

Does the oxalate connection go the other way - if there's no bad reaction (or no reaction at all) to the epsom salts, then there's no oxalate issue? Not that I'd expect it to be that simple, but one can hope...
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
Thanks for your input! Does supplementing your son w/B6 actually allow him to tolerate higher doses of mag? How does a 2.5 yo have high antimony levels? How was that tested for? Hope I'm not being too nosy but I know next to nothing about most of this! Any info would be much appreciated!
Sorry, forgot to come back to this thread .

Antimony is in the flame retardants used in kids PJs, baby sleepers, and crib/bed mattresses (and carpets, furniture foam...). And little kids absorb it faster through their skin than adults. Most kids detox it fine - my little guy doesn't. (He and his sister slept on the same bed, she has no antimony load, his is 95+ percentile bad at 2 years old, diagnosed via hair test).

Based on what I've seen in the allergies forum, I'd say that anyone with a child with low mag symptoms that don't seem to turn around pretty fast with mag supps should do a hair test and look for antimony. To give you some idea, I need to give my son about 300mg a day of mag (spread out in 4 doses), along with about 15-20mg a day of p5p (active b6, also spread out into 4 doses), to keep his low mag symptoms at bay. And that's just what he gets direct, he also get some through my breastmilk (he still nurses plenty).

I can give my son as much mag as I want, and it will be next to useless (he'll still have low mag symptoms) without the b6. Antimony inhibits the body utilizing mag (it gets into the blood, but can't get absorbed into cells where it is needed). B6 helps mag get into the cells. So generally for us, he runs out of b6 before he runs out of mag. But they work together really synergistically.
post #33 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thank-you so much for clarifying! Is diarrhea from a tiny dose of mag considered to be a symptom of low mag or a deficiency in a co-factor or both? I am going to try supp'ing w/ P5P...I bought a powder that has all the B's in it...is this ok too? Is there a way to rid the body of excess antimony?

Thanks again for your input!
post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
Thank-you so much for clarifying! Is diarrhea from a tiny dose of mag considered to be a symptom of low mag or a deficiency in a co-factor or both?
First, a lot depends on the form and how well it's absorbed. My tolerance for mag oxide is really low, mag citrate is higher, and natural calm is highest. And I only really feel the effect by taking a pretty high dose of natural calm.
post #35 of 43
Mamafish9 is dealing with high antimony in her DS right now. She is chelating him. I'll let her tell you more about that though since I'm um... obviously not the one to talk about it.
post #36 of 43
OK, back - sorry folks, I keep forgetting to check back .

I'm using zeolite, on an Andy Cutler type protocol - two drops every four hours for 2.5 days, then 4.5 days off. My DS is 2.5, he tested 95%+ bad for antimony levels (and arsenic was high as well, which often comes along with antimony). We did pee tests before we started the zeolite, and then a pee test during a zeolite round - and we get 10x the amount of antimony out of him using the zeolite, which is HUGE for such a small amount of zeolite. Zeolite definitely doesn't mobilize for everyone, but it definitely is for us. I can tell we're still pulling antimony because every time we're on the zeolite, his magnesium needs increase (antimony messes with magnesium).

Cutler says to pull antimony with methylation supps - methyl b12, folate, etc - basically encouraging the body to rid itself of the antimony. But my DS tends to react badly to too many methylating supps, and the antimony gets things going a lot faster for us. I want the stuff out of him, so that we're not constantly fighting low magnesium symptoms (and they may have played a role in some of the starch/carb intolerance issues we were having as well).

ETA: We're also doing a lot of supporting supps - plenty of Bs with extra P5P(active B6), C, a little fermented CLO (and a lot through me), E, butter for K, lots of fish for omega 3s, mag, and milk thistle. (He swallows capsules now, thanks be...).
post #37 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjørne View Post
People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aris99 View Post

It is interesting that my 2 eldest kids (my eldest has aspergers and my middle child is spectrum-y) are far more negatively affected by the epsom salts than my third child who actually appears soporific after her bath!
I went to a conference and listened to a presentation on Oxalates and specifically its relation to autism. It was very interesting. The magnesium should actually help the oxalate issue if taken with the meal. Taking mag citrate with a meal will allow the oxalates in the food to bind with the mag instead of storing in your body. The great energy could be a result of feeling better.....
post #38 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Natural_Mom View Post
I went to a conference and listened to a presentation on Oxalates and specifically its relation to autism. It was very interesting. The magnesium should actually help the oxalate issue if taken with the meal. Taking mag citrate with a meal will allow the oxalates in the food to bind with the mag instead of storing in your body. The great energy could be a result of feeling better.....
An interesting point but I don't think this is it in our case. First, my son has a super limited diet and I don't think the oxalate content is that high in the foods he does eat. Second, the kind of hyperactivity I'm talking about is not simply increased energy. I can take super energetic games if kids are happily playing together, make believe games, or just have excess energy from not going outside on a rainy day....no, this is kids becoming over aggressive, combative, destructive when it is not in their nature under normal circumstances.

I *think* that the vitamin B6 may be making a difference...can someone tell me if B6 could do this? I've been giving my kids about 10 mg of p5p/day. The serving size is 35mg but I wanted to start slowly. My son is now up to about 200mg mag glycinate a day w/out diarrhea (previously even 100mg produced clear liquid diarrhea) AND I swear the epsom salt bath last night caused my 2 elder kids to become slightly *very slightly* soporific....at least he wasn't spiraling out of control. I started the B6 supplementation about a week ago could it work this fast?
post #39 of 43
yes, it can work that fast.
post #40 of 43
Any new updates?

PB, can you think of the other factor you mentioned?

I've recently started DS on epsom salts baths in AM and he's doing well. We had been doing many months of just magnesium chloride baths. He doesn't do well on oral mag. But he really needs the sulfur for food chemical intolerances so that is why I started ES.
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