Vaccine responsibility form?

[WuWei]

Hey has anyone already coined a Vaccine Responsibility form for Doctors to sign?

Specifically, the doctor accepting responsibility for injecting known toxins in the children and taking responsibility for making sure the doctor (himself) is aware of the possible consequences such as allergies, ear infections, brain damage, death, etc. etc. And stating that they will report ALL adverse reactions and stop telling parents to just give their child tylenol to mask the reactions.

?? We're going to make one, if not. Something akin to the APP version: http://practice.aap.org/popup.aspx?aID=2685&language=

What should be included, bullet form, short (total 3/4 page) and succinct, not inflammatory, but factual, linked references ideal.

Including VAERS/CDC requirements to report listed side effects, including crying, fever, yada yada.


Thanks, Pat

[Marnica]

I have seen various forms like this online over the years....

I would be interested in anybody's personal experience using one. I cannot imagine any doctor being willing to sign one of these, even though they expect us non-vaxing parents to sign the bad mommy form

[WuWei]

How about "I Dr. __________ agree to read the product insert in full for every vaccine I administer and base my recommendations on taking personal and professional responsibility for any adverse reactions incurred by my patients due to said vaccines."

And I commit to report any and all adverse reactions listed (or not listed) in the product inserts to the VAERS, immediately.


Pat

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by WuWei

How about "I Dr. __________ agree to read the product insert in full for every vaccine I administer and base my recommendations on taking personal and professional responsibility for any adverse reactions incurred by my patients due to said vaccines."

And I commit to report any and all adverse reactions listed (or not listed) in the product inserts to the VAERS, immediately.


Pat

sounds good, but there is no MD in their right mind that will sign something that says they take persoanl let alone professional responsibility for causing harm to a patient...if you took out that part, they may sign it

[Ammaarah]

MDC has a form here you can print and bring to your child's health care provider. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who wants a pleasant relationship with the child's HCP, though.

[bbrandonsmom]

Ammarrah- thanks for the link.
I'm in agreement, I can't imagine a dr signing that, or keeping a good relationship. Maybe some one in delayed/select has used a form like that w/ luck?

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Ammaarah

MDC has a form here you can print and bring to your child's health care provider. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who wants a pleasant relationship with the child's HCP, though.

Fascinating. I'll review that at length. Perhaps, a shortened version with just acknowledgment of the specified toxins with references to the product inserts. If MANY patients provided this document when given the "AAP refusal" that might shift the tide!

We're thinking of advocating for the local holistic community by disseminating a similar document to the medical practices AND to the moms in our region.


Pat

[Keria]

I don't get it are you going to vaccinate your kids and take this form to your doctor?, or you want a form for vacinating parents to take to their doctor's?

People who vaccinate don't believe vaccines are evil therefore they wouldn't do it and people who don't vaccinate well don't vacinate so no need to take a form to any doctor.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by TropicalGirl

I don't get it are you going to vaccinate your kids and take this form to your doctor?, or you want a form for vacinating parents to take to their doctor's?

People who vaccinate don't believe vaccines are evil therefore they wouldn't do it and people who don't vaccinate well don't vacinate so no need to take a form to any doctor.

Locally, our 'go to' family practice doctor has started requiring the AAP form. When previously, he was liberal about not vaccinating. We want to arm the mamas going in with something to help them to feel prepared with objections, in a succinct, turn the tables manner, which is polite and powerful.

Also, we'd like the mamas who are undecided about vaccinating to see the information in a way which feels empowered for them to ask for assurance that the doctor is aware that he is injecting known toxins into their child. (I'm not sure many would want to *know* they are injecting toxins. But, you can't 'unread' the document, you know. This creates a need to receive *assurance* and the doctor won't sign it?? Hmmm... cognitive dissidence. )

Additionally, we're thinking to send our version along to the peds in our area as a heads-up, parents are educated and not going to toe the party line. And identify those who are willing to work with parents.

The MDC form linked above is terrific. No one will sign it, probably. Something shorter with just the toxins (direct from the product insert with references) and acknowledgment that these are being injected into "my" child and the doctor believes it is safe. Common language that parents want reassurance about, and the doctor won't sign...


Pat (we're non-vaxxing)

[stiss]

Given that no medical procedures come without risk, including vaccines (which is expressed openly throughout the medical community), I doubt any doctor in his right mind could be expected to sign a paper saying he'd put his job on the line should that risk lead to a negative outcome. It's no more reasonable than asking a doctor to sign such a form when they're about to treat you for any illness, which also will involve some level of risk.

Trying to encourage a discourse with physicians over the risks of vaccine injury will hardly come from such a document. The only reason I can see the use for such a blatantly inflammatory form would be to rouse conflict and display your disrespect for their practice. So...I fail to see any productive reason to request such a thing. If you don't think your doctor will respect your views on vaccination, find another doctor who will. Why waste someone's time? He's (at the very least) just as entitled to his views on vaccines as you are.

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by stiss

Given that no medical procedures come without risk, including vaccines (which is expressed openly throughout the medical community), I doubt any doctor in his right mind could be expected to sign a paper saying he'd put his job on the line should that risk lead to a negative outcome. It's no more reasonable than asking a doctor to sign such a form when they're about to treat you for any illness, which also will involve some level of risk.

But to me, that's exactly the point of presenting the form to them....to show them that it's just as absurd to expect them to sign that as it is for patients to sign the the guilt-mongering (and,in many parts, inflammatorily false) AAP form that many doctors try to bully you into signing.

By requiring the latter form, it is the doctor--not the patient--who is inviting an adversarial tone into the relationship. If the patient has to sign on to take responsibility, so should the doctor. Of course they won't sign it. And not surprisingly, I won't sign theirs.

[stiss]

Originally Posted by Turquesa

But to me, that's exactly the point of presenting the form to them....to show them that it's just as absurd to expect them to sign that as it is for patients to sign the the guilt-mongering (and,in many parts, inflammatorily false) AAP form that many doctors try to bully you into signing.

By requiring the latter form, it is the doctor--not the patient--who is inviting an adversarial tone into the relationship. If the patient has to sign on to take responsibility, so should the doctor. Of course they won't sign it. And not surprisingly, I won't sign theirs.

Um, no. The responsibility is on us. If you die during an operation, barring any malpractice, the surgeon does not own any of that responsibility. So, unless the doctor is giving your child vaccinations that are contraindicated, he does not bear any responsibility from the risk.

When I signed my son out of the hospital after his birth AMA, it was on MY shoulders, squarely. I was comfortable with that, because I was confident in my assessment of the risks and his health. If you're comfortable with the assessment of the risks of not vaccinating, you should be okay signing that form. If you're not, go find another doctor. If you believe they're being adversarial, why wouldn't you just walk away, rather than continuing to foster an unpleasant doctor/patient relationship? I wouldn't want someone who dislikes me to be following my health, or the health of my child.

NB - I live where vaccinations are not mandatory, and I don't agree with mandatory vaccination. I also don't believe that doctors are evil, though.

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by stiss

Um, no. The responsibility is on us. If you die during an operation, barring any malpractice, the surgeon does not own any of that responsibility. So, unless the doctor is giving your child vaccinations that are contraindicated, he does not bear any responsibility from the risk.

How would you define when a vaccine is contraindicated?

When a child is sick? How sick?

If they had a previous vaccine reaction? What kind of reaction would count? Would it have to be to that vax, or would any vax reaction contraindicate all future vaccines?

What if a family member had a reaction?

What if the child had autoimmune disorders?

What if the child had autism?

What if the child was premature? Underweight? Generally unhealthy? Generally healthy?

The list could go on and on, and every parent and every doctor will give you different answers. Someone needs to bear the risk of vaccinations, and so far, no one does. Doctors aren't responsible, manufacturers aren't responsible, the government isn't, the AAP and CDC aren't, parents aren't. No one is held responsible (in most circumstances) if a bad decision is made. Honestly, I find that shocking. If someone were held responsible, maybe, just maybe, that someone would take action in research and safety demands for vaccinations.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by ammiga

Someone needs to bear the risk of vaccinations, and so far, no one does.

The child does.


Pat

[stiss]

As with all decisions I make concerning my kid, I bear the weight of the responsibility if something goes wrong, unless something has been overlooked, such as a contraindication. As for what those contraindications are, I can tell you what *I* believe they are, and where the natural consequence of taking risks transfers over to blatant malpractice, but there's no point in us having that discussion, since we have different philosophies regarding vaccinations and the diseases they protect against. It's a boring, circular argument that gets nowhere, and to which we are equally entitled to our views.

My point is that the form presented above is not productive. It will not ever be signed and nobody could ever reasonably expect someone to even consider it - not because of the details, but because medical procedures are inherently risky and it is ALWAYS on the patient (or parent) to assume that risk when they make their decisions (again, barring any extraordinary circumstances that are usually determined by legalese.)

I totally believe that vaccines should be electively chosen and administered, and I totally believe that doctors should try to work with patients, and that patients should not be coerced or made to feel badly about their decisions. However, I also believe that inflaming the patient/doctor relationship is counter-productive and an incredible waste of their time, not to mention extremely disrespectful. On the flip side, if anything, it disrupts what positive relationship might still exist. It's just an excuse to start an argument and boost your (the general your) ego with some good old confirmation bias.

If you want to fight the good fight, work on getting the right to free choice in the matter, which is a reasonable, level-headed fight. In the meantime, find a practitioner who respects your views so your time, and their time, aren't being wasted.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by stiss

However, I also believe that inflaming the patient/doctor relationship is counter-productive and an incredible waste of their time, not to mention extremely disrespectful.

I could say the exact same thing about the AAP's bad mommy document.

[stiss]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

I could say the exact same thing about the AAP's bad mommy document.

If you read my post, you'll see that I'm totally in agreement that the relationship should be based on mutual respect. I'm not sure how your statement justifies being outwardly hostile (for no reason other than being hostile, because we ALL know that form isn't getting signed, right?) instead of just finding a practitioner that will respect your philosophy. Again, what it comes down to is being a jerk.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by stiss

If you read my post, you'll see that I'm totally in agreement that the relationship should be based on mutual respect. I'm not sure how your statement justifies being outwardly hostile (for no reason other than being hostile, because we ALL know that form isn't getting signed, right?) instead of just finding a practitioner that will respect your philosophy. Again, what it comes down to is being a jerk.

It's so hard to find a practitioner that will be at all respectful of a parents decision to forgo vaccinations. This would be why my DD has not seen a medical doctor since she was 2 months old.

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by stiss

As with all decisions I make concerning my kid, I bear the weight of the responsibility if something goes wrong, unless something has been overlooked, such as a contraindication. As for what those contraindications are, I can tell you what *I* believe they are, and where the natural consequence of taking risks transfers over to blatant malpractice, but there's no point in us having that discussion, since we have different philosophies regarding vaccinations and the diseases they protect against. It's a boring, circular argument that gets nowhere, and to which we are equally entitled to our views.

On one hand, yes, you bear the weight (as does the child), if something goes wrong. But no one holds you responsible for making a bad decision outside of the guilt (if you acknowledge what you did) or the natural consequences that follow. I am saying that someone should legally bear the weight. That there should be major legal repercussions if medical "treatments" are given that are contraindicated.

If people were going to be held legally and professionally responsible for giving medical treatments when they were contraindicated, then I think that much more independent research would be conducted by all parties involved, and that people and doctors would demand higher standards from pharma.

Sorry if I was confusing, but I wasn't actually asking you to list the contraindications that you personally felt. I was listing a few questions to show that everyone feels differently about these and that there really does need to be some way to quantify contraindications. Right now, it is far too subjective with very little agreement on anyone's part, and no one to hold responsible if they are ignored.

[caro113]

I can tell you now that no one will sign that. When I was looking for a ped for DD while I was pregnant, the first thing I asked was their stance on vaccines. One receptionist was quite rude to me, saying in a very starky voice that they are the standard of care and if I wanted to not vaccinate then I must sign a waiver saying I take responsibility for anything that might happen to my child and other children due to my recklessness. So I asked her to same thing. "Well will the doctor sign a waiver saying the vaccine is safe and will take responsibility if my child has a reaction or dies?" I eventually hung on up on her. She was absolutely horrible. Before I could even ask my questions she was all "you have to call your insurance company have them put our name on the card before you can bring her here" "yes, I know that, but I'm trying to figure out which name I want on the card which is why I would like to ask a few questions about your practice" "We can't see you until you have our name on your card." Ugh. She was so impossible. Anyhow, I'm just telling you that no one will sign that. I know that isn't your point, but I'm just saying.

I really like your idea though!

And FTR, I would never sign any type of waiver.